How to perform Kick Serve?

[Ben Larcombe]

The key aspect appears to be hiding the serve behind your shoulder/body so that opponent cannot see the contact point. If you're left-haded like Par then it's even easier to do this.

I'm definitely going to start practicing this though.

 

[Olio]

Having been subject to this serve from many teammates, the issue is not that you don't see it, but that it kicks and accelerates. So much that the most frequent outcome from this serve is the edging by the receiver trying to topspin it / attack with closed bat. You can see it's topspined, but your timing is off.

I am not good at doing this serve, but the one thing I know is that it's simple. Massive topspin, no side spin, little speed. So lots of brushing, thin contact on serve.

 

[Iczy]

More videos of kicker serve.

The first one is the slow-motion version of the first video I posted.

The second one is the time I missed the ball completely. It comes with the slow-motion version in the second half.

The third one is also a slow-motion version. But this time the camera showed the serve from behind the server angle.

From these videos, I agree with Olio that the kicker serve looks easy to execute. The motion seems to be a combination of side-spin with some forward motion.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One of the main reason this serve amazes me is the spin suppression factor. In normal topspin serve, the speed is relatively uniform. But with this serve, the topspin is suppressed on first bounce, the speed is moderate, until the ball hits the second bounce, then the topspin seems to be activated.

Slow topspin serves can trick you. They can look like underspin if you do not know what to look for, but they are topspin. To tell the difference between underspin and topspin on a slow serve, you have to watch the racket and then the arc of the ball. If the arc of the ball is rounder, it is topspin. If the arc is flatter, it is underspin. But, if you are not watching the arc of the ball closely, a short, slow topspin ball will trick you into thinking it is underspin because of how it floats.

That serve just looks like a variation of a Tomahawk or a Hook serve. Both are pretty easy to do.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, your missing the ball or it catching the edge of your racket means you need to watch the flight of the ball better. But it also means your brain is set for something else and so you are having a hard time seeing the ball. If you get someone to just give you that serve a bunch of times and you are not trying to hit the ball but really try and watch it, when it is hit at you in a match, you will see it more accurately.

It is like, if you were playing an anti-spin player and you did not know they had anti-spin, and you push, and they push back, you would see the ball as though it was underspin even though it is not. Your brain is set for something and so you are not seeing what is actually there. You need to practice to see through the illusion and the deception.

That is really a simple serve. He is not really doing much to disguise it. You can easily see his racket the whole time. Once you are used to it, it will be no problem for you. It will just be a matter of practice and getting used to this serve.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

After watching Chris Wheeler video for the 100th time (a bit exaggerated, of course), I think it may work like this: (correct me if I am off-the-mark please)
The primary spin is the side spin, that is when the arm slices across the equator of the ball. But when the ball is propelled, the axis of rotation changes to topspin with the second bounce.
Anyone?

No.

Think of it this way, if you do a slow underspin serve that is heavy, the first bounce is normal, the second bounce (on the opponents side of the net) the ball will slow down, and then the ball, if the spin is heavy enough, will change directions and move back towards the net.

A slow topspin serve, the spin is there, it is topspin with side, but it is topspin. It Kicks forward a tiny bit, but not enough for you to notice, especially if you are thinking it is a different spin. The second bounce the ball has speeded up a tiny bit, from the first bounce, and then the ball kicks forward more.

Part of this has to do with the fact that the ball is coming off the rubber with most of the momentum being the result of how you spin the ball, not from the racket imparting forward momentum but from the rubber spinning the ball.

Again, the real thing you need to do is watch the ball off these serves over and over without trying to return them. Learning to do them helps you see them because then you are seeing them going away from you.

 

[manuel_04]

By the way, your missing the ball or it catching the edge of your racket means you need to watch the flight of the ball better. But it also means your brain is set for something else and so you are having a hard time seeing the ball. If you get someone to just give you that serve a bunch of times and you are not trying to hit the ball but really try and watch it, when it is hit at you in a match, you will see it more accurately.

It is like, if you were playing an anti-spin player and you did not know they had anti-spin, and you push, and they push back, you would see the ball as though it was underspin even though it is not. Your brain is set for something and so you are not seeing what is actually there. You need to practice to see through the illusion and the deception.

That is really a simple serve. He is not really doing much to disguise it. You can easily see his racket the whole time. Once you are used to it, it will be no problem for you. It will just be a matter of practice and getting used to this serve.

Thanks UpSideDownCarl. Learning a lot from your posts.

 

[Tinykin]

More videos of kicker serve.

The first one is the slow-motion version of the first video I posted.

The second one is the time I missed the ball completely. It comes with the slow-motion version in the second half.

The third one is also a slow-motion version. But this time the camera showed the serve from behind the server angle.

From these videos, I agree with Olio that the kicker serve looks easy to execute. The motion seems to be a combination of side-spin with some forward motion.

I dunno but I wonder if it was the spin that got you or more importantly, the placement.
That player seems to be using crafty veteran tricks on you. Veterans will look at your stance before throwing in the serve.
In serve1 you were holding a backhand-oriented grip. The serve was sidespin-top just wide of the FH causing you to take a long time to move your bat into position.
In serve2 you had a more neutral grip, again the serve was side-top but this time into your body-elbow region. Again you were slow to get into a good return position.
The 3rd serve drifted a bit wider making it a little easier for you.

 

[MDanielCRO]

Yesterday I played on competition against Slovenian player, he has the best kick serves I have ever seen, i didn't know how to returno lol, I could only push and the ball would be so high that he could smash it.. weird

 

[malincarbon]

anyone can share me the service mastery dvd ( table master university) ,pls upload and share me the link, thanks very much!

 

[TTFrenzy]

The best way to counteract this serve is to practice some kicker serves yourself.

The contact point which is on the upper half of the ball produces topsidespin. Lets assume for example 80 % of the rotational energy is topspin and 20 % sidespin. Now when the ball bounces on the 1st half of the table it curves a little bit giving the impression of a sidespin or sideunderspin serve.

After the 1st bounce the ball loses some sidespin and is still curving (much less than before) while on air. After the 2nd bounce the ball totaly loses its sidespin and rotates around the horizontal axis (100 % topspin) giving you the "illusion" that the ball "kicks fast" after the bounce.

You can easily counter hit it or topspin it when it is long. When it is short its even more tricky and you have to practice good timing on your flicking strokes


Once you get the hang of it you can even start smashing it, it just a "deception"

The best way to "read" serves is to focus your eyes 100% on the ball from the moment that the server holds it and prepares to throw it till the moment of contact.

Right After the contact and sometimes while its travelling (especially if it is a slow serve like the kicker) towards your half of the table you have lots of time to decide what stroke you will execute

Watching the whole picture will give you more trouble than you can handle especially with servers that use deceptive motions

 

[kjanko]

Why is it so hard to return this serve? It's topsin after all, just loop it back or block?

 

[Iczy]

I can perhaps make a video to demonstrate how to do the kicker serve?

How's it going, Dan? Still wait eagerly for your proposed video.

 

[MDanielCRO]

Why is it so hard to return this serve? It's topsin after all, just loop it back or block?

It's hard to return it because when it comes to your side of table it is not fast, but when it hits your side of the table it will jump higher and get spin and speed and just hit your blade edge (I hope you understand what I mean lol)

 

[Dan]

How's it going, Dan? Still wait eagerly for your proposed video.

Thanks for reminding me! Ill work on it and upload soon buddy!

 

[Samuraisam 3467]

I have been using the disguised kick serve for quite a while now but my way may be slightly different to all the videos posted, holding the bat normally as if playing a shot still though. I think of the disguise coming from the body and not so much of the wrist. As the ball is thrown up I rotate my body slightly and rise up. As the ball is falling I quickly drop slightly down and snap back up again while rotating my body into the ball. To produce slow and short topspinny serves I brush more upwards and gently on the side/lower half of the ball. Instead of hitting the ball down into the table ( as most serves do) if you get the timing right you can brush the ball , rotating more upwards, so it launches from table height upwards then bounce enough just over the net. If you want a fast version of this serve rotate your body more horizontally into the ball forwards. You can do the disguise after the quick movement and contact of the ball by flicking your wrist as if playing the opposite spin.

 

[Iczy]

Encountered another example of kicker serve. This time it was a 12-year-old boy at a local tournament. He made it seem so simple! and imagine the frustration I felt when I didn't even know the theory behind it.

Below is the slow-mo version.

 

[Iczy]

Another public example on youtube:

It must be a slow topspin serve, no doubt. But how does it get topspin from? The racket angle is not closed, on the contrary, it's open like when you do backspin serve. Look at the Chris Wheeler example.

From the effect on the receiver side, it's not just a float serve.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It must be a slow topspin serve, no doubt. But how does it get topspin from? The racket angle is not closed, on the contrary, it's open like when you do backspin serve. Look at the Chris Wheeler example.

From the effect on the receiver side, it's not just a float serve.

Watch this video:

In that video Schlager expains how, if you hit different parts of the ball with the same bat angle and the same movement, you get different spins. That serve is just a hook serve. If you have the racket at that angle and you catch the outside of the ball north of the equator (figuratively speaking), and your stroke is down, it will produce topspin.

All that is, is a topspin serve. If you are having trouble seeing how it is a topspin serve from watching the racket motion, (I can see it easily), then you need to watch the bounce of the ball also. If it kicks forward on the bounce it is topspin. If the arc of the ball is rounder, it is topspin. Dead balls will sort of float and you can see that the ball is not spinning. Backspin will have a lower flatter arc and will slow down as the goes farther. With a short backspin ball, the spin can eventually overtake the momentum of the ball and you can get an backspin ball to go back towards the net. A topspin ball will accelerate on the bounce. If you have trouble with that serve it simply means you have to get used to reading the spin on serves better and on returning different serves (dead, topspin, backspin, and the different sidespins).

Just find someone who can that serve and have him give you that serve over and over and over. At a certain point you will see it accurately and then you will also start knowing what to do with it. Part of what is happening is that, because you think you see an backspin motion in the serve motion, your brain is tricking you and you are not actually seeing what the ball is doing after he contacts it. You think you are seeing backspin and then you miss that it kicks towards you and so your racket is not quite in the right place for the actual serve. Find someone who can do that serve who is enough better than you that he won't be scared to lose a weapon against you and have him give you that serve over and over and have him tell you what to do against it.

But that serve is a very easy serve to do.

 

[Iczy]

Thanks, Carl. I'll try out your suggestion.