JTTA: Selection System to be Revamped for Paris 2024

[zeio]

Ito has actually said that winning a medal at the WTTC is more difficult (IIRC it was after Hayata getting bronze at WTTC 2023).

Dug it up. It was at the Oath Ceremony before WTTC 2023.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ytabletennis.net/forum/topic91479_page28.html (05/27/2023 at 5:55am)

 

[zeio]

Tomokazu 4-2 Uda (4,6,-6,-9,8,10)

Great show from both side with exciting rallies but Harimoto won at the end with his fluid defense + attack, he has a lot of lucky balls but I think that attest to his outstanding defense ability amongst Japanese players. For Uda, his Paris dream may have come to an end with this match, but I'm looking forward to his growth. Clearly the conventional 2 winged style doesn't suit him, why bother stepping to his FH side to flick the serve so much when he can't fully make use of the returned ball?

Ironically, that's what makes him dangerous when he is in form. You can judge his form just from that.

 

[zeio]

Hirano sure does like falling asleep when there are no stakes. Akae played well though.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ihon-takkyu-2024-1-2228_topic91479_page7.html (08/14/2022 at 10:45am)

Hayata is currently at that point of her career. In terms of trajectory, Hirano is like ZJK, Ito is like ML and Hayata is like XX.

Even their characters are alike. No wonder Hirano said once she wanted to play XD with ZJK.

Hirano needs a coach like LGL but there is none in Japan. Zhang Cheng's TO timing could've been better. She was leading 6:3 and then lost the next 4 after Akae came out of her TO, and only then did he call it.

https://youtu.be/bTV2JxDdi3U?t=120

 

[jfolsen]

Does Ito admit the "no coach" thing isn't working?

 

[zeio]

Does Ito admit the "no coach" thing isn't working?

AFAIK, she hasn't touched on that, let alone Matsuzaki.

 

[zeio]

MD SF
Harimoto/Morizono 3-1 Oshima/Tazoe
G4 31 epic point from Morizono
Former partner turned opponent...

小林 広夢 KOBAYASHI Hiromu/伊藤 礼博 ITO Ayahiro? 1-2 -> 3-2 Oikawa/Matsushima
G5 20, TO for Oikawa/Matsushima, 30, 31, 51, 53, 63, 65, 75, 76, 86, 87, 117

WD SF
Kihara/Nagasaki 3-0 Shibata/Odo
Poor Shibata/Odo. Kept getting blocked by Ito/Hayata and now...

加藤 亜実 KATO Ami/小島 叶愛 KOJIMA Kanoa 0-2 -> 1-3 Sato/Hashimoto
G4 15, 48, 411 endline edge for Sato/Hashimoto

 

[zeio]

XD F
Tanigaki/Okada 0-1 -> 1-1 -> 1-3 Shinozuka/Kihara
53?, 57, 58, 68, 78 epic BH from Tanigaki, 98, 99, 109, 1010, 1110, 1111, 1211, 1214
95, 96, 116
02 slight net for Kihara, 22, 23, 33, 34, 74, 76, 86, 810, 910, 911
03 TO for Tanigaki/Okada, 13, 15, 35, 36, 46, 49, 59, 510, 1010, 1012
OKADA Kotona is born in 2002, same as Nagasaki. She plays very well this year. Tanigaki couldn't have made it this far without her.

MD F
Harimoto/Morizono 0-1 -> 1-1 -> 1-3 小林 広夢 KOBAYASHI Hiromu/伊藤 礼博 ITO Ayahiro?
G1 510?, 811
G2 75, 77, 117
Locker room card activated by Harimoto after G2...
G3 15 endline edge for Kobayashi/Ito, 35, 36 slight net for Kobayashi/Ito, 37, 47, 49, 59, 510, 810, 910, 911
10, 13, 33 Kobayashi served into the net, 35 TO Harimoto/Morizono, 55, 56, 66, 67, 77, 711
Harimoto played like crap. He was the target throughout. Morizono did all he could to keep it as tight as possible.
JTTA should hire Kobayashi/Ito as MD sparring partners. They are good. They shut down Harimoto/Morizono's chiquita and forced them into pushing, which made them very uncomfortable.

WD F
Sato/Hashimoto 0-1 -> 1-1 -> 1-2 -> 2-3 Kihara/Nagasaki
99, 911
119
85, 810, 910, 911
13 TO for Sato/Hashimoto, 63, 64, 114
14, 44, 45, 75 Nagasaki dropped 3 pts, 76, 86, 87 endline edge for Nagasaki, 89 crucial FH from Nagasaki, 811
Nagasaki withstood the pressure.

 

[Shine]

Given that she essentially drove Zhu Yuling and Ding Ning into early retirement, and also was in many ways the best player outside China for the last decade, it is a bit too one-sided to interpret her career this way. Because while we might like to pretend that only beating China matters, even from Japan, no one else was won a medal in singles at the Olympics until she did. And as much as they have the best players now, it is not a foregone conclusion that Hayata and Hirano can choke. If and when they do, Ito reappreciation will be at its peak. If Japan does find a way to beat China, then the conversation can be meaningfully revisited against Ito.

Ding Ning was already on schedule to retire at the time she did; Chinese ladies usually retire around 30. Zhu Yuling had cancer and her treatment effectively took her out of TT. Ito didn't retire either of them. At best you can say she beat Zhu Yuling twice in WORLD TOUR EVENTS. Not even at any of the majors. At least Hirano and Hayata have been able to get significant scalps at the majors. And if beating ZYL twice is your metric for "retiring a player", Why hasn't WMY, CXT retired?? She's beaten them like twice over the course of her career too.


If Hayata and Hirano chokes, the convo will shift to fasttracking Miwa, Miyuu, Odo and Akae. The tides seem to have left Ito behind. Hayata and Hirano have to prove themselves because they too can be left behind after the Olympics.

 

[zeio]

Ito is often credited (even in China) for forcing the replacement of DN/LSW/ZYL but it's Hirano who started it all at ATTC 2017. 3/4 of the young players assigned to imitate Hirano for WTTC 2017 have made it as the current crop of core players - SYS, WMY and CXT. They are the new blood that is responsible for driving the old guards out. If they didn't make it, China would've been forced to stick with DN/LSW/ZYL for Tokyo 2020. CM, who had zero world, continental or national titles, wouldn't even have gotten the chance to win World Cup 2020 and Tokyo 2020. WYD, who was also on the imitation list but had nothing to do with Hirano and Ito at that point, wouldn't have become a core player either.

When it comes to H2H, DN/LSW/ZYL/CM and SYS/WMY/CXT/WYD had not just lost to Ito in the Tokyo 2020 cycle, but several others as well. Hirano (DN/ZYL/CM), Ishikawa (CM, SYS), Sato (DN twice), Hayata (LSW), and Nagasaki (ZYL twice) had all scored wins.

It would've been much nicer to list the whole thing instead. Those players were responsible for imitating Lee Ho Ching, Doo Hoi Kem and Cheng I-Ching. From the order, it's obvious they are dead last and so considered to pose the least threat.

List released circa 2017/5/11, between ATTC 2017 and WTTC 2017.
Hirano Miu: Sun Yingsha, Wang Manyu, Chen Xingtong, Liu Ming
Ito Mima: Zhang Rui
Ishikawa Kasumi: Chen Ke, Gu Yuting
Hayata Hina: Liu Gaoyang, Wen Jia
Kim Song I, Suh Hyo Won, Kim Kyung Ah: Hu Limei, Liu Fei
Li Jie, Li Qing: Wu Yang
Petrissa Solja, Elizabeta Samara: Wen Jia, Liu Gaoyang, Gu Yuting
Feng Tianwei: Feng Yalan, Gu Ruochen
Yu Mengyu: Yuan Xuejiao, Guo Yan (not that Guo Yan)
Hou Meiling (AKA Hu Melek): Sun Mingyang, Zhang Rui
Lee Ho Ching, Doo Hoi Kem, Cheng I-Ching: Gu Ruochen, Wang Yidi, Li Xiaodan, Li Jiayi, Che Xiaoxi, Liu Xi, Guo Yan

http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2017-05-12/doc-ifyfeius7843121.shtml

Hirano and Miyazaki's comments after learning about the list.
https://www.hk01.com/即時體育/92196/乒乓球-中國隊4個陪練模仿備戰世界賽-平野美宇-有趣

Hirano: "I'm getting the attention of China? That's very interesting! My goal is to beat them again at the WTTC in Dortmund. China is no longer as strong and intimidating in my eyes."
Miyazaki: "Other than Ding Ning, no one from China can match Hirano."

 

[zeio]

Nagasaki withstood the pressure. Could be the first and last chance for either Kihara/Nagasaki and Sato/Hashimoto, so had to make the best of it. Kihara/Nagasaki also beat the 2 pairs from Miki House.

With WTT Finals Women Nagoya 2023 and now Zennihon Takkyu 2024, Kihara/Nagasaki is officially the new principal pair for Japan. Kihara/Harimoto is the second in line.

2 titles out of 3 events for Kihara. She played 6 matches today. Well, she has been playing several matches a day the entire week.

 

[fore.n.back]

MD F
Harimoto/Morizono 0-1 -> 1-1 -> 1-3 小林 広夢 KOBAYASHI Hiromu/伊藤 礼博 ITO Ayahiro?
G1 510?, 811
G2 75, 77, 117
Locker room card activated by Harimoto after G2...
G3 15 endline edge for Kobayashi/Ito, 35, 36 slight net for Kobayashi/Ito, 37, 47, 49, 59, 510, 810, 910, 911
10, 13, 33 Kobayashi served into the net, 35 TO Harimoto/Morizono, 55, 56, 66, 67, 77, 711
Harimoto played like crap. He was the target throughout. Morizono did all he could to keep it as tight as possible.
JTTA should hire Kobayashi/Ito as MD sparring partners. They are good. They shut down Harimoto/Morizono's chiquita and forced them into pushing, which made them very uncomfortable.

Harimoto is just not made for doubles lol, he's used to standing close in the middle of the table to counter. Doubles requires dynamic footwork which he doesn't possess because of his style. Furthermore, he often blocks and then looks for a chance to counterattack, but in doubles that means giving the opponent a chance to finish the point.

 

[fore.n.back]

53?, 57, 58, 68, 78 epic BH from Tanigaki, 98, 99, 109, 1010, 1110, 1111, 1211, 1214

Tanigaki pulled a Zhang Jike on 'em lmao, both at 78 and 1110, but this guy really has a weird grip, he sometimes puts his index finger high on the BH rubber when playing FH, idk where he learned this.

 

[Janard]

Nagasaki withstood the pressure. Could be the first and last chance for either Kihara/Nagasaki and Sato/Hashimoto, so had to make the best of it. Kihara/Nagasaki also beat the 2 pairs from Miki House.

With WTT Finals Women Nagoya 2023 and now Zennihon Takkyu 2024, Kihara/Nagasaki is officially the new principal pair for Japan. Kihara/Harimoto is the second in line.

2 titles out of 3 events for Kihara. She played 6 matches today. Well, she has been playing several matches a day the entire week.

Hayata seems like the odd one out now lol, with her longstanding WD partner Ito probably too haughty to be the third team player + she has no luck herself against the top 3 Tokyo trio (CM, SYS, WMY). Standing awkwardly as a stable player who will do well helping her sisters get to late stages (SF/F) in the Olympics yet probably insufficient of crossing any major lines when need be.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Hayata seems like the odd one out now lol, with her longstanding WD partner Ito probably too haughty to be the third team player + she has no luck herself against the top 3 Tokyo trio (CM, SYS, WMY). Standing awkwardly as a stable player who will do well helping her sisters get to late stages (SF/F) in the Olympics yet probably insufficient of crossing any major lines when need be.

Hmmm I am not so negative
Because Chen Meng is past her prime now. She seems to be dealing with injuries too. Hayata was close in Nagoya.

Wang Manyu also seems to be dealing with injuries with her level of play being highly variable

IMO Japan has more chances than you realize

 

[FIXPOINT]

 

[NextLevel]

Ding Ning was already on schedule to retire at the time she did; Chinese ladies usually retire around 30. Zhu Yuling had cancer and her treatment effectively took her out of TT. Ito didn't retire either of them. At best you can say she beat Zhu Yuling twice in WORLD TOUR EVENTS. Not even at any of the majors. At least Hirano and Hayata have been able to get significant scalps at the majors. And if beating ZYL twice is your metric for "retiring a player", Why hasn't WMY, CXT retired?? She's beaten them like twice over the course of her career too.


If Hayata and Hirano chokes, the convo will shift to fasttracking Miwa, Miyuu, Odo and Akae. The tides seem to have left Ito behind. Hayata and Hirano have to prove themselves because they too can be left behind after the Olympics.

So some of us remember that Zhu Yuling was the golden child and that she and Li Sun started having arguments after Mima beat her in tour matches, including one where she embarrassed the ambassador from China who wanted to present the trophy to a Chinese lady but had to present it to a Japanese because of Mima. It was these things that began the souring of Zhu Yuling's career and while I didn't know about her cancer diagnosis, having lost relatives to the disease, I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed. Because Zhu after those losses went from being the heir apparent at the Olympic Games in 2016 to not even making the team in 2020. Chen Meng started her whole Olympic Games project by beating Ito.

Ding Ning was scheduled to retire, but I am sure she would have wanted to play on to for another OG Gold if possible and she has the birthright tradirionally as 2017 Champion. But when the losses mounted, there is no argument to stay on. And she had clear style issues vs Ito that made any desire for another medal too risky.

So I get your position but I don't see your position as something that means that the story is simply that Zhu Yuling and Ding Ning's struggles with remaining undefeated against Ito did not keep them out of the OG singles competition. The way the Chinese completely turned over the 2016 team in 2021 was partly driven by Ito. I lived through those events like you did so I find your erasing all the things that happened and not remembering the need for many players to prove they were immune to losing to Ito before being given Olympic spots to be weird. But it is okay, we both remember it differently.

 

[NextLevel]

Ito is often credited (even in China) for forcing the replacement of DN/LSW/ZYL but it's Hirano who started it all at ATTC 2017. 3/4 of the young players assigned to imitate Hirano for WTTC 2017 have made it as the current crop of core players - SYS, WMY and CXT. They are the new blood that is responsible for driving the old guards out. If they didn't make it, China would've been forced to stick with DN/LSW/ZYL for Tokyo 2020. CM, who had zero world, continental or national titles, wouldn't even have gotten the chance to win World Cup 2020 and Tokyo 2020. WYD, who was also on the imitation list but had nothing to do with Hirano and Ito at that point, wouldn't have become a core player either.

When it comes to H2H, DN/LSW/ZYL/CM and SYS/WMY/CXT/WYD had not just lost to Ito in the Tokyo 2020 cycle, but several others as well. Hirano (DN/ZYL/CM), Ishikawa (CM, SYS), Sato (DN twice), Hayata (LSW), and Nagasaki (ZYL twice) had all scored wins.

Those of us who watched Ito know why she was credited. People can rewrite the narratives now if they want to, but some of us remember clearly that one of the reasons why Chen Meng became an Olympic champion against the grain of prior selection strategies was that she didnt lose to Ito. Hirano was considered solved in 2017 with the long push and force her to open strategy and her loss of confidence that followed those losses when she became enemy #1.

 

[NextLevel]

Hmmm I am not so negative
Because Chen Meng is past her prime now. She seems to be dealing with injuries too. Hayata was close in Nagoya.

Wang Manyu also seems to be dealing with injuries with her level of play being highly variable

IMO Japan has more chances than you realize

I hear you. But this was exactly how people felt about men's singles in 2016 with ZJK playing. We know how that turned out. But I hear you.

 

[NextLevel]

Tanigaki pulled a Zhang Jike on 'em lmao, both at 78 and 1110, but this guy really has a weird grip, he sometimes puts his index finger high on the BH rubber when playing FH, idk where he learned this.

there is an old school Japanese player (former world champion) that did this and Timo does for some shots. Not a big deal at all.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I hear you. But this was exactly how people felt about men's singles in 2016 with ZJK playing. We know how that turned out. But I hear you.

In 2016 ZJK played against an injured Samsonov iirc. There was a real chance
And Japan pair won G1 in the team event. They were close to being 2-1 up in doubles. If they won I believe Mizutani could have won ZJK in singles