Kuwait Open 2016

[Archosaurus]

Like everything else Archosauraus , you know more about Ma Long's loop than Ma Long does himself

Well, if he was trying to miss them, surely he'd know better how to miss them than I do.

 

[anchorschmidt]

I don't think that this match was fixed. ZJK did not give Ma Long any time to launch his forehand attack. Secondly, the highlights kind of distorted what won whom the points.

For ZJK, it was his backhand flick. He varied the spin so much that Ma Long put so many into the net. He also loaded them up with sidespin so it becomes hard to block that down the forehand side. ZJK's flicks seem to have a higher quality than FZD's and Ovtcharov's flicks. It wasn't easy to Ma Long to step around and loop down the line. If he did that, ZJK can counter crosscourt.

What won Ma Long a lot of points were placing the ball to the wide backhand (yes, the backhand!) of ZJK. Since he tries to cover as much as possible with his backhand for his close-to-the-table counter attacks with the backhand, the wide backhand is one of ZJKs weaknesses. When he was going backhand to backhand, he would succeed sometimes by placing one to the middle and then the next to the very wide backhand.

Attacking the middle also seemed to work well for him. You have to realize, a lot of these sets were very close and Ma Long did a lot of things that were right. ZJK won every set with a 2 point margin

You can see Ma Long serving reverse pendulum in the 5th set to the forehand side. It's a tactic he sometimes uses against ZJK. Ma Long countered the lesser-quality flick. However, ZJK pushed the next one short and the one after that was flip-killed. Though we don't see it in use much, ZJK's forehand flick is also really lethal.

Though it is possible that Ma Long could have held back some tactics that would have helped him win, it was clear from his body-language that he really did not want to lose this match. I don't think that he was mentally very positive either. You can see him missing more balls than usual while warming up as well. It's also not often that he faces so much pressure from the other side. I also used to have a stronger mental game before my current season. My win:loss record is currently 12:1 because I have had to play against slightly weaker opponents but I still remember how my mental game fell apart when this one player actually managed to put pressure on me and I lost 0:3 without varying my tactics much because I was so used to just steamrolling through opponents.

All in all, I don't think it's fair to both players for us to call this game pre-arranged.

 

[TTFrenzy]

I don't think that this match was fixed. ZJK did not give Ma Long any time to launch his forehand attack. Secondly, the highlights kind of distorted what won whom the points.

For ZJK, it was his backhand flick. He varied the spin so much that Ma Long put so many into the net. He also loaded them up with sidespin so it becomes hard to block that down the forehand side. ZJK's flicks seem to have a higher quality than FZD's and Ovtcharov's flicks. It wasn't easy to Ma Long to step around and loop down the line. If he did that, ZJK can counter crosscourt.

What won Ma Long a lot of points were placing the ball to the wide backhand (yes, the backhand!) of ZJK. Since he tries to cover as much as possible with his backhand for his close-to-the-table counter attacks with the backhand, the wide backhand is one of ZJKs weaknesses. When he was going backhand to backhand, he would succeed sometimes by placing one to the middle and then the next to the very wide backhand.

Attacking the middle also seemed to work well for him. You have to realize, a lot of these sets were very close and Ma Long did a lot of things that were right. ZJK won every set with a 2 point margin

You can see Ma Long serving reverse pendulum in the 5th set to the forehand side. It's a tactic he sometimes uses against ZJK. Ma Long countered the lesser-quality flick. However, ZJK pushed the next one short and the one after that was flip-killed. Though we don't see it in use much, ZJK's forehand flick is also really lethal.

Though it is possible that Ma Long could have held back some tactics that would have helped him win, it was clear from his body-language that he really did not want to lose this match. I don't think that he was mentally very positive either. You can see him missing more balls than usual while warming up as well. It's also not often that he faces so much pressure from the other side. I also used to have a stronger mental game before my current season. My win:loss record is currently 12:1 because I have had to play against slightly weaker opponents but I still remember how my mental game fell apart when this one player actually managed to put pressure on me and I lost 0:3 without varying my tactics much because I was so used to just steamrolling through opponents.

All in all, I don't think it's fair to both players for us to call this game pre-arranged.

Very accurate analysis, congrats! I just saw the full match recorded on ittv and I also think zhang's weaknesses are the wide BH and FH cause he doesnt pivot or (uses the forehand crossover footwork)unless he is forced or has the initiative.

Many points won by ML on various games are byplaying the wide angles, ZJK always tries to get the ball early even if it is extremely difficult with sidesteps. When he is on top physical form he can get to every ball and counterspin it, but most of the time especially in the past two years he lost many points or forced to be passive in order to stay in the point

There is no need to fix that match, especially on ranking terms, I think both of them wanted to win but if they lost no big deal. They are still on top4, on the contrary zhang's match against ovtcharov was much more important than against ma long.

I'm guessing maybe the chinese dont want anyone to catch up on top4 rankings (dima or mizu who are close to ZJK) probably to have safer positions when the olympic games start. We have the qatar open now which I guess will provide us some more exciting matches between mizu dima & the chinese

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

One thing you have to realize is, Zhang Jike is really a strange character. You can tell in most tournaments he doesn't really care. When someone is clearly worse than him, he doesn't try half as hard.

Then every so often he plays more fully. It is not often except in the major titles.

I kind of think it is lame that most of the time he is not trying when he shows up for a tournament.

But when he shows up, he is pretty darn complete as a player. He definitely has the short game and the Jedi mind tricks from the old wily penholders, Ma Lin and Wang Hao. He just doesn't usually pull them out except in the China Trials and the Major tournaments.

And look what ZJK did in the recent China trials for the WTTTC. Didn't he beat Ma Long 5-1 there? I can guarantee you, those guys don't throw those matches. And I can guarantee you that they all want to win. No way either of them is going to sandbag for the other in those trials.

Both these guys are amazing. And we all know, in a sport like tennis or table tennis, someone who is on, on a given day, can keep you from executing your strategy and keep you from playing how you would like to.

I am pretty sure everyone here has played someone who thought they were having a good day until they played you and after they played you they complained they weren't playing well at all against you. And you thought to yourself: "did you ever consider that how I played had something to do with that????"

Or the other way around, you feel like you are playing great. And you play someone who keeps you uncomfortable and gets you out of your rhythm.

These guys are good enough to do that to each other. And it is not like Ma Long has too much choice if Zhang Jike keeps him pinned to the BH side. Or controls the short game. That means, today, ZJK was able to force his game on ML. On another day, it will happen the other way. Nobody, as of now, is as good as these two. And they are good at different aspects of the game.

But this sure does make what is coming up with Olympic trials and the Olympic Games seem interesting. Doesn't it!!!

It makes it interesting to imagine, when the games happen, that we could have two World Champions going head to head.


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[TareqPhoto]

Congrats ZJK, good that i didn't vote here, i was going to vote for ML but i felt bored to do so.

I don't want to comment or analyse about that final game, it is China after all, doesn't matter who, ML or FZD or ZJK or even another chinese player who is not in top 5, it happens, you don't expect that #1 will win all his games forever until he retire, XX was #1, where is he now? and i know ZJK was #1 too and lost some tournaments here and there before too, so let's not make it a big deal, if ML win in the upcoming tournaments again against ZJK or whomever then the comments will change again, and i can't comment about the feeling of ML when he lost, be if i were in his place then i will be happy that his opponent has returned, this will give some kind of challenge rather than boring final games where we all vote for ML blindly.

At the end, this tournaments isn't changing the world of TT, and we can wait and see what will happen next, i didn't watch any games live as i got busy these days and yesterday i went back to the club after long break, i enjoy to go and play more than watching games live, i will watch big names championships live when possible, and i knew that Chinese players are in final again, i think in Qatar open if top 4 Chinese are there too then 2 of them in final as usual, could be ML and FZD, why not ZJK and FZD as long many keep hope for FZD always here.

 

[NextLevel]

BTW, all the same players are in Qatar this week. So we will see if their attitude to anything changes.

 

[TareqPhoto]

I don't know why they have it in Kuwait and Qatar, while in Dubai they have the Asian cup? there is no Dubai TT open? is that means that Asian cup is better tournament so Dubai chose better ranked tournament for example? last year i didn't attend a tournament that happened in Dubai, it was in January and i just returned back to TT in February last year so after the tournament, and this year i am really thinking to Attend that Asian tournament in Dubai to watch.

 

[bzing]

Yea imagine how interesting the match would be if ZJK and ML met each other again at the Olympics final.

 

[braithey]

The truth is, as pointed out by another poster, that ZJK short game is much stronger than ML's. As a consequence ZJK is able to disrupt ML's transition from his serve/short game into his natural looping game. ZJK is able to apply more pressure early in the rally and this gives him the advantage. I also agree with the other poster who pointed out ZJK is a bit of a fraud in terms of his attitude in some tournaments and would appear to be going through the motions in terms of application. Whether this is a deliberate ploy to keep his absolute best for the big occasions I do not know.

ML will need to adapt specifically for ZJK in the Olympics if he wants to win gold. He knows when ZJK is on form he will flick frequently, because this is his natural game but it could also be his natural weakness. If ML can find a controlled response to the ZJK flick that takes away his time or position then ML will start to disrupt ZJK and mitigate his biggest asset.

 

[NextLevel]

Guys, over analyzing a win in which both players won almost the same number of points but which ended up as a 4-1 victory because one player won the more important points is not going get anyone passage into heaven.

 

[Sali]

The truth is, as pointed out by another poster, that ZJK short game is much stronger than ML's. As a consequence ZJK is able to disrupt ML's transition from his serve/short game into his natural looping game. ZJK is able to apply more pressure early in the rally and this gives him the advantage. I also agree with the other poster who pointed out ZJK is a bit of a fraud in terms of his attitude in some tournaments and would appear to be going through the motions in terms of application. Whether this is a deliberate ploy to keep his absolute best for the big occasions I do not know.

ML will need to adapt specifically for ZJK in the Olympics if he wants to win gold. He knows when ZJK is on form he will flick frequently, because this is his natural game but it could also be his natural weakness. If ML can find a controlled response to the ZJK flick that takes away his time or position then ML will start to disrupt ZJK and mitigate his biggest asset.

If you look ZJK technique you will see that he is much closer to the table then ML. Ma Long wants to attack as soon as possible, that is why he is standing little bit further and he has to do big step in to catch short ball, so his short push will be easy to flick. This is what ZJK wants, his BH flick is great and he waits for the opportuninty to use it and even finish the point with just one flick. But when you play very close to the table, you have to be in perfect heatlh condition and very fast on your feet. So when ZJK is healthy he will be very hard to beat.
Other question is if he is going to participate in the olympics. Each country can put maximum 2 players, so we have Ma long, but who is going to be second we still do not know - or I miss something which happend these days?

 

[khuonglt]

Does Anyone notice strange ML's serves in this tournament?

In the r32, r16 and QF matches, he has used hight toss serve as usual. But in SF and Final, on XX and ZJ, he has used low toss serve, that make his opponents returned very easily. That situations i had never seen before in their matches.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Other question is if he is going to participate in the olympics. Each country can put maximum 2 players, so we have Ma long, but who is going to be second we still do not know - or I miss something which happend these days?

Yeah. You may have missed a few key things.

The trial tournament for Asia for the Olympics is coming up soon. In those trial tournaments each country can send up to 4 players. Each country can earn up to 2 spots for the Olympic Singles event.

The third spot, the one for the player who will join the two who qualify for singles, will be chosen by world ranking. I think the world ranking that will matter is at the end of May. But I could be wrong. I am giving the information from memory. I read the qualification process months ago.

Liu Gouliang has stated publicly that the top 4 (ML, FZD, XX and ZJK) will all be present at the qualification event. So they will have to battle each other for the two spots in the Olympic Singles event.

From a theoretical standpoint, if things work out how the China Trials for WTTTC ended, then the two spots in singles would go to XX and ZJK since in those trials, those two finished 1st (XX) and 2nd (ZJK). And in those trials, both XX and ZJK beat ML.

But the Olympic trials will have to be won. And whoever wins the spots for singles will go for singles. Barring an injury which Olympic Committee doctors would have to examine and diagnose. So a team can't fake an injury or they would lose that player for singles and would lose the chance to play in teams.

So we can't tell who will qualify for the Olympic Singles event. Because all 4 of the top CNT players are capable of winning a spot if they have a good tournament.


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[Sali]

Yeah. You may have missed a few key things.

The trial tournament for Asia for the Olympics is coming up soon. In those trial tournaments each country can send up to 4 players. Each country can earn up to 2 spots for the Olympic Singles event.

The third spot, the one for the player who will join the two who qualify for singles, will be chosen by world ranking. I think the world ranking that will matter is at the end of May. But I could be wrong. I am giving the information from memory. I read the qualification process months ago.

Liu Gouliang has stated publicly that the top 4 (ML, FZD, XX and ZJK) will all be present at the qualification event. So they will have to battle each other for the two spots in the Olympic Singles event.

From a theoretical standpoint, if things work out how the China Trials for WTTTC ended, then the two spots in singles would go to XX and ZJK since in those trials, those two finished 1st (XX) and 2nd (ZJK). And in those trials, both XX and ZJK beat ML.

But the Olympic trials will have to be won. And whoever wins the spots for singles will go for singles. Barring an injury which Olympic Committee doctors would have to examine and diagnose. So a team can't fake an injury or they would lose that player for singles and would lose the chance to play in teams.

So we can't tell who will qualify for the Olympic Singles event. Because all 4 of the top CNT players are capable of winning a spot if they have a good tournament.


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as I remember last olympics there were only two chinese players ZJK and wang hao. People were asking why ma long is not playing. And the explanation was that they took it from ranking which was year ago before olympics, and in these ma long was not number 1.
Anyway we have to wait for the trials.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

as I remember last olympics there were only two chinese players ZJK and wang hao. People were asking why ma long is not playing. And the explanation was that they took it from ranking which was year ago before olympics, and in these ma long was not number 1.
Anyway we have to wait for the trials.

That was how they did it last time and they realized their mistake.

I just outlined the process for this upcoming Olympic Games.

And if you remember, last time, Ma Long qualified in the ASIAN QUALIFICATION tournament to take the THIRD SPOT, and the third spot was ONLY FOR THE TEAM EVENT.

So, the top two qualifiers from any country play singles. And if a country has a 3rd player who qualifies, the 3rd player qualifies ONLY for the TEAM event. And if a country doesn't have a 3rd player who succeeds in qualifying, that country CANNOT play the Teams event. For the Olympic Teams Event, you need 3 players who qualify.


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[UpSideDownCarl]

Here: read the rules:

http://www.teamusa.org/~/media/USA_...ficationSystem-FINAL-TableTennis-EN.pdf?la=en


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[Sali]

Great thanks for valuable info. So I understand for china nobody has been choosen so far.

 

[Nico269]

My guess would be that; if ZJK is believed being capable of bringing back gold from Rio everything will be made available to help him succeed. Who knows when they'll next have a chance to have a player in the position of taking a Grand Slam and be the first ever to bring home two Olympic singles Gold.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Great thanks for valuable info. So I understand for china nobody has been choosen so far.

Perhaps this is just semantics but the word "chosen" doesn't fit here. Four players have already been chosen to participate in the trial tournament. They are:

1) Ma Long
2) Fan Zhendong
3) Xu Xin
4) Zhang Jike

To get one of the two spots for the Olympic Singles Event two of those four will have to earn those spots by winning them.

To earn the one remaining Team Event spot, one of the two remaining players will have to earn that as well by being the highest ranked player remaining. So, of the two who don't qualify for singles in the qualification tournament, the player who is ranked higher in the ITTF World Rankings will EARN the third spot.




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[TareqPhoto]

So it means at the end 2 Chinese players are there, who? we have to wait and see, and i have a feeling that ML will be one of them and i doubt that ZJK will be the second, but who knows, surprises may happen, if it is up to me i will fit ML and FZD, ZJK had his turn before and won, time for new winner this time.