Marcos Freitas using Marcos Freitas ALC

[doraemon]

I have used the waldner senso carbon but personally I prefer the all wood Waldner Dicon. IMO it matches the Korbel in terms of spin and feeling

Thanks, Raylazyfo. According to http://stumpof.blogspot.co.nz/p/stumps-blade-composition-list-j.html , the Dicon has the same composition (limba-spruce-ayous-spruce-limba) as Offensive, so it should be similar, except for the hollowed Dicon handle

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Is loop forehand and block backhand in an allround offensive manner (not 100% 3rd ball attack stuff) and am able to properly perform all basic strokes on both sides (loop, drive, block, push), except for away from the table chop. Is this sufficient? Please tell me if you want more info.

That should be enough. It sounds like, this is where things are:

If you want to play and have fun, then any blade that makes you happy is fine.

If part of your goals in playing are that you would like to improve as much as reasonably possible, the all wood blades will help you develop your technique better than the carbon blades.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[doraemon]

That should be enough. It sounds like, this is where things are:

If you want to play and have fun, then any blade that makes you happy is fine.

If part of your goals in playing are that you would like to improve as much as reasonably possible, the all wood blades will help you develop your technique better than the carbon blades.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

OK. This makes sense. How good do you think you have to be to decently convert to ALC then?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

If you are still devolving your touch for spinning the ball and the amount of spin you get on your loops can be significantly improved, an all wood blade will help you develop the touch for the extra spin faster.

If you can loop any all you want, topspin or underspin, and your loops get decently high level spin, then you can use any blade you want and still keep developing.

Somewhere around when a player is close to the elite amateur/semi-pro level, the player will be able to use the full potential of an ALC blade and not have the Carbon negatively impact his/her development.

Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of players who start with an ALC blade right from the beginning and get to a pretty high level. But they probably would have got there faster with an all wood blade and may top out at a slightly higher level if there development had started with that all wood blade.

There is a nice example here on the forum. Abe Gold started playing with a Viscaria with H3 and T05. Familiar setup. He got to about 1500 (USATT) with that setup in about 2 years of training with a coach. Then Der_Echte gave him an all wood control blade--Nexy Spartacus--with control rubbers. MXP FH and Nexy Elpis BH and his level skyrocketed. In the next year or so, he went up to 1900+.

The way he explained it, after he got the new setup, everything seemed to go in and he felt the ball much better with the Spartacus.

He would have got there eventually with the Viscaria. He just got there faster with a simpler setup.


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[soli]

Then Der_Echte gave him an all wood control blade--Nexy Spartacus--with control rubbers.

While I agree with the message you're trying to convey, isn't Nexy Spartacus a 5+2 carbon blade? (still slower than Viscaria, but not all-wood)

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

While I agree with the message you're trying to convey, isn't Nexy Spartacus a 5+2 carbon blade? (still slower than Viscaria, but not all-wood)

You are right. My brain blipped. Spartacus is a slower carbon blade. My bad. So, with Abe the development happened with just a slower softer carbon blade.

And we could never fully compare him devoting with that equipment vs him getting the same training and developing the whole time with an all wood blade.

One thing worth knowing, Ma Long played with all wood blades straight through his whole junior career.


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[Baal]

A lot of conventional wisdom back in 38 mm ball era was that carbon was excessive, especially with speed glue. I thing that was especially true in China. Things are different now.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

A lot of conventional wisdom back in 38 mm ball era was that carbon was excessive, especially with speed glue. I thing that was especially true in China. Things are different now.

Yeah. Maybe I'm outdated. And people don't need all wood Off- blades as much anymore. I do think the extra feeling helps for learning certain things about touch. But with the plastic ball, maybe it is not as important.

I still feel that people can learn to get higher levels of spin more easily if they learn with an all wood blade. And that a lot of players get a carbon blade too early in their development. But, perhaps it is not as important in today's game as it was a few years ago.


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[Baal]

I see kids here with Chinese coaches with composite blades of various sorts. I remember, though, in 90s, all the really good players I knew used all wood blades. Most of those guys are using ALC blades now. I think if you play with something long enough, it may not matter.

 

[NextLevel]

I see kids here with Chinese coaches with composite blades of various sorts. I remember, though, in 90s, all the really good players I knew used all wood blades. Most of those guys are using ALC blades now. I think if you play with something long enough, it may not matter.

Carbon blades and ALC blades have come a long way according to many people I speak to on the subject, even more so with the plastic ball. I remember talking to a friend of mine and he felt that the TBS/TB ALC were relatively woody. He just didn't think the extra expense was justified until he had to deal with the plastic ball. He used a Clipper until then. Even Stellan Bengston is quoted on PaddlePalace as saying that Carbon blades are now more similar to wooden blades.

http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2011/0...ages-to-carbon-blades-versus-all-wood-blades/

I know how much I struggled to use ALC koto blades and that using very fast blades repeatedly hurt my game. Maybe I should have stuck with them longer, but my impression was that every time I grabbed a wooden blade, I felt more at home. I think for the first time, probably because I left behind Tenergy, I actually want to use a faster blade.

The high-level coach I know (at another club) who recommends equipment for his students sticks everyone on an Innerforce ZLC. None of the kids I know started on a carbon or composite blade, though most of them switched to one by the time they were around 1300-1500 USATT or so.

 

[Baal]

Now more similar to wood blades? I'm not quite sure what that means in the sense that Butterfly has not really changed the basic concept behind most of their ALC blades in almost 20 years. True a really old TBS or Viscaria is not exactly identical to one you buy now, but the differences are relatively minor in the overall scheme of things, and actually the oldest ones were a bit thinner, slower, and more flexible, and therefore more wood-like than one you would buy today.

Perhaps it means that with these heavy and larger diameter plastic balls, the various ALC blades (or their ZLC various cousins) basically give you the same overall power relative to the ball that one would have had with something like a Clipper or Cresail back when we could speed glue Bryce and were playing with 38 mm balls? It sort of seems that way.

One thing I am quite sure of, back when I first came back to the game after a long layoff, there were quite a few carbon blades, but when people I talked to thought about carbon they figured it meant something like a Sardius or a Gergeley, or something like that, and weren't thinking about the much more controllable ALC blades. So a lot of good players from those days (well actually they are still good players) advised me to avoid them. At the time I bought my first Viscaria (this was before the emergence of ZJK and was around 2007 or so) it was a somewhat obscure blade, the only reason I found out about it is I hit with a clubmate's blade (and that evening ordered two of them). Actually the first carbon blade I ever had was something from Tibhar, it has a lot of balsa in it I can't remember what it was called but I am confident that if I tried it now I would think it was awful. (Maybe it was a Rapid Carbon, did they make those in ~2000?). Before Viscaria, I tried all sorts of things, never really actually played with blades that I know now in retrospect would have been good. I probably should have been using a Clipper in those days or a Korbel. One blade I remember that I had was a Nittaku Narcus. It was a bit Korbel-ish I think but with a ridiculously small handle. I had a Keyshot for awhile, that was really nice, but that was just before the Viscaria.

 

[Baal]

By the way, doraemon is not who he says he is and NL's suspicion that he is trolling is substantiated (although not malicious trolling, maybe he sees himself as just facilitating discussion). In fact, he has been a member of mytt since 2007 (which would make him pretty old for a junior, which he claimed to be here, recently), and frequently posts there comments with his opinions about various blades, the effects of blade compositions, on playing properties etc. His IP address there says Indonesia (but could be forged), he lists US address there, and New Zealand here.

I don't suppose there is any rule against this, but I mention it for posterity. He certainly managed to keep a thread going.

Here is a post he wrote in May of 2007!!!

NOW I am really really really curious......
What is so good about Accoustic and Violin? Almost everybody explain about "it's not love at first sight but if you court it for months then you are married to it" kind of answer. Gee, I wish it's not that expensive so that I can give it a try.

BTW, what is the difference between Accoustic and Violin in term of Speed, Spin and Control? Can anybody tell it more exact?

Thanks.

P.S.
In term of this special feeling for all-wood blade, I also see people are fanatic to Korbel and Clipper. Another thread may be next time.

 

[Baal]

I'm now fairly certain you are trolling.

Indeed he is. See my previous post. It is strange for sure how people amuse themselves.

On the up-side, we had some good discussions about these blades.

 

[doraemon]

by the way, doraemon is not who he says he is and nl's suspicion that he is trolling is substantiated (although not malicious trolling, maybe he sees himself as just facilitating discussion). In fact, he has been a member of mytt since 2007 (which would make him pretty old for a junior, which he claimed to be here, recently), and frequently posts there comments with his opinions about various blades, the effects of blade compositions, on playing properties etc. His ip address there says indonesia (but could be forged), he lists us address there, and new zealand here.

I don't suppose there is any rule against this, but i mention it for posterity. He certainly managed to keep a thread going.

Here is a post he wrote in may of 2007!!!

now i am really really really curious......
what is so good about accoustic and violin? Almost everybody explain about "it's not love at first sight but if you court it for months then you are married to it" kind of answer. Gee, i wish it's not that expensive so that i can give it a try.

btw, what is the difference between accoustic and violin in term of speed, spin and control? Can anybody tell it more exact?

thanks.

p.s.
in term of this special feeling for all-wood blade, i also see people are fanatic to korbel and clipper. Another thread may be next time.

that is not me!!!! Please believe me, I only joined this year! That Doraemon is definitely a different one! What do you need for proof? That I'm from NZ? And am DEFINITELY not a TROLL!!!!

 

[Baal]

OK. It is conceivable that the doraemon who posts at MyTT since 2007 is not you. I could conceive it. I'm not going to spend any time worrying about it.

 

[NextLevel]

that is not me!!!! Please believe me, I only joined this year! That Doraemon is definitely a different one! What do you need for proof? That I'm from NZ? And am DEFINITELY not a TROLL!!!!

Have Matt Hetherington vouch for you.

 

[doraemon]

Have Matt Hetherington vouch for you.

How am I meant to do that?

 

[NextLevel]

How am I meant to do that?

Obviously, he is a New Zealander so if you know the table tennis scene, you should be able to chat with him about it. If you don't want to do it, that is fine, but please stop acting like a troll.

 

[ttpshot]

One thing I am quite sure of, back when I first came back to the game after a long layoff, there were quite a few carbon blades, but when people I talked to thought about carbon they figured it meant something like a Sardius or a Gergeley, or something like that, and weren't thinking about the much more controllable ALC blades. So a lot of good players from those days (well actually they are still good players) advised me to avoid them. At the time I bought my first Viscaria (this was before the emergence of ZJK and was around 2007 or so) it was a somewhat obscure blade, the only reason I found out about it is I hit with a clubmate's blade (and that evening ordered two of them).

I think that analysis is right on money as 1st gen Carbon blades are lot thicker and the maker claimed it was faster as the carbon material was lighter and more rigid than wood. Viscaria and other ALC blades are lot thinner by comparison which gave more feeling at controlable speed. So players who are used to old carbon blades would find ALC blades a lot closer to wooden blades.

Choice is vast nowadays as there are rigit wooden blades(eg infinity VPS) and slower carbon blades(ALC IF etc).
Juniors in my club usualy progress to carbon blades after roughly 3000 to 4000 hours. It's not because they lack speed in their loops, it's just that the loops are useless until you become competitive at serves/recieves/opening.

 

[laistrogian]

I think that analysis is right on money as 1st gen Carbon blades are lot thicker and the maker claimed it was faster as the carbon material was lighter and more rigid than wood. Viscaria and other ALC blades are lot thinner by comparison which gave more feeling at controlable speed. So players who are used to old carbon blades would find ALC blades a lot closer to wooden blades.

Choice is vast nowadays as there are rigit wooden blades(eg infinity VPS) and slower carbon blades(ALC IF etc).
Juniors in my club usualy progress to carbon blades after roughly 3000 to 4000 hours. It's not because they lack speed in their loops, it's just that the loops are useless until you become competitive at serves/recieves/opening.

Innerforce ALC is by no means a slow blade, it's definitely is as fast as TB ALC in looping. It's why I love innerforce series. You get carbon sweetspot and power with close to all-wood touch and feeling