Possible DONIC Timo Boll ALC, Timo Boll Spirit, Viscaria, Zhang Jike ALC alternatives

[Baal]

He is basically saying the composite layer is embedded in glue. And strength and mechanical properties of these materials are usually measured in single fibers as if you were pulling on the ends of a string. But the ball actually strikes the fibers on the side, not on the ends, and properties may be different in that dimension.

That said, ALC blades don't vibrate much.

 

[Liquid Sky]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre-reinforced_plastic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber_reinforced_polymer

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here, have a look. Info from a company R&D guy put in simple English:

Dear Carl,

Arlyate and aramid are same.
They've just colored it.

We know this because XIOM & Butterfly buys from same companies.

For example
Aramid = Arlyate
Zylon = Zephylium.

Only difference we have for them is if they are 1K, 3K, 6K.
Colored or not.
It is exactly same as Adidas, where they've used Arylate to make a blade. But used Red instead of blue.

It is just a marketing stunt.
and the naming.

So, he is indicating the size of the fibre when he says 1K, 3K, 6K.

After doing a little research I found that Aramid is short for "Aromatic Polyamide" and Arylate is a shortened term for "Polyaralate".

At this point I can't find the information that indicated that Polyarylates were a subset of Aromatic Polyamide. But here:

Another quote from this guy:

I can't tell you which TT companies buys from whom and where, because of relationship issue, but I will love to tell you when I meet you.
We have same aramid made from about 6 different companies, all of them try to produce same aramid, but all different. lol.

He also gave an analogy of a car company that tried to make the exact same car as another company, taking the design and plans, and somehow the two cars were pretty different.

Other companies don't know the exact process of gluing, of weaving the Polyarylate with Carbon, or how Butterfly treats and glues the wood plies. Which makes Liquid Sky's posts that much more interesting.

In any case, even if the materials are slightly different, they are all soft plastics with the property that they have flex and rebound.

In a TT blade, the companies are not using the material for its thermal resistance, strength or chemical stability. But the ability to use the substance in fabrics is part of the flexibility of the material that allows it to compress and rebound. Combined with Carbon, it gives a soft feel, a feeling that the ball sinks in and stays on the racket longer (whether that is true or not) and the carbon gives a faster rebound and hardness.

Some wood blades create effects like this with a soft outer ply and a wood that is more springy underneath (Clipper with Limba as the top ply and Ayous underneath it). Or a hard outer ply and a ply that is softer underneath (P-500 with Koto top ply and Spruce underneath it).

Anyway. To me it does not matter if they are similar compounds or the same compounds regardless of the fact that this guy indicated that Xiom and Butterfly buy from the same company. Which Baal indicated to be Kuraray (Vectran).

And it makes sense to me that the True Carbon has different thicknesses of plies from a ZJK ALC and yet plays virtually identical to it. Without the same gluing process and process for weaving the carbon with the Polyarylate fiber, a slightly different formula to the whole blade could end up producing the same feel.

My Virtuoso and my Virtuoso Plus are made of the same wood plies. They are very close to the same thickness. 5.65mm and 5.67mm thick. And they play way differently because of something that can't be seen from the outside that makes one faster and more solid and one have a softer feeling.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, this page:

http://polymerdatabase.com/Fibers/Arylate.html

seems to indicate that Polyarylates are Aramids. It does not spell it out. But it lists:

"Polyarylate fibers are high-performance multifilament yarns spun from liquid crystal polymers (LCP). The only commercially available melt-spun LCP is Vectran."

AND

"COMMERCIAL ARAMID FIBERS

The major manufacturer of aramid fibers is Kuraray which is sold under the tradename Vectran."

So it lists Polyarylates as Aramids. And it lists Kuraray as a maker of the Aramid fiber "Vectran". But it does not spell out that Polyarylates are a subset of Aromatic Polymides. But we could infer.

I still do wish I could find the page I found in September that specifically spelled it out. Because I would not have figured it out from the stuff I found in my searches over this morning.

 

[rokphish]

When I was visiting factories in China they told me about the same thing as what your guy said.

 

[Baal]

I did a little more research this time focusing on the term Liquid Crystal Polymer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-crystal_polymer

You can see that both Vectran and Kevlar fit into this category (and it explains how they can absorb vibration, by going into meso-liquid phase) but you can see chemical structures are not quite identical, but similar. Vectran is made from p-hydroxybenzoic acid and so will not have nitrogen atoms in the crossbridges between the monomers, whereas Kevlar (for example) does. Vectran is made by Kuraray Co., Ltd. but I am pretty sure the TT companies buy the weaves they use from other vendors who specialize in spinning the fabric with carbon, two of which I listed above (who buy the fibers from Kuraray). How that weave is made can affect things too.

In my experience, Vectran and Kevlar have the same properties in blades, and different from Zylon.

I am pretty sure, from the appearance of a Viscaria after a guy smashed it, that in TT the Vectran is not embedded in plastic except for the glue used to make attach the plies.

 

[Liquid Sky]

...I am pretty sure, from the appearance of a Viscaria after a guy smashed it, that in TT the Vectran is not embedded in plastic except for the glue used to make attach the plies.

Of course the glue is the plastic/matrix.
After more than 10 years of building carbon and carbon/aramid blades, I might know what I am talking about.

 

[kadamestriaw]

Ovtxharov true carbon 100 eur.
Baum espirit 50 eur.
person carbotec 50 eur
viscaria 125 eur

 

[Baal]

Of course the glue is the plastic/matrix.
After more than 10 years of building carbon and carbon/aramid blades, I might know what I am talking about.

OK, that's what I thought. I'm sure you do know what you are talking about. However, from the links you posted, describing embedding in plastic, and the way that you were responding to where I explained to Doraemon that the fiber weave was embedded in glue, it made it seem different is all.

Out of curiosity, where do you buy the carbon/aramid weave you used in your blades?

 

[doraemon]

This whole thing is getting so complex...

 

[Baal]

The answers you need were already given. Try someone's blade and see if you like it. Arylate and Aramid are similar. Donic True Carbon plays like Btfly and is cheaper. Composite layers that are quite deep play differently than when they are relatively close to them surface.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. What Baal said.

I will say it differently.

If you want the real thing, get one of the Butterfly blades.

If you want to save a little money, get the True Carbon. It's the closest thing you can get. Baal's statement that it is indistinguishable from the Butterfly blades should hold a lot of weight. Before he started to use a True Carbon, Baal used a Viscaria for years. Years!

If you want something less expensive than that you should get an inexpensive wood blade.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Suga D]

Another alternative:
The Yinhe T7 and the Sanwei HC1 also are made with Arylate carbon and both aren't very expensive.

So in case there is nobody owning an expensive Butterfly blade around you, you could try one of the above without spending a leg and an arm.