Qatar Open 2018

[NextLevel]

Sometimes I miss the point too. Oh come on NextLevel, don't be so sensitive about me writing this.. ; )

What would you say is most important in Raineverever's posts?

1. The top CNT players don't reguarly train vs each other but they compete vs each other.
2. National associations are already somewhat cooperating.
3. You can get Provincial level or retired CNT training partners to work with which is what many of the top Euro players and clubs already do as I mentioned a while back.

But since you still seem hung up on this Samsonov idea when I keep telling you that many of the clubs already provide enough of a proximity for top players to practice against each other similar to what happens on Super League teams in China, and you regularly like to miss the point to play devil's advocate and push whatever excites you at the given moment, enjoy!

 

[jawien]

1. The top CNT players don't reguarly train vs each other but they compete vs each other.
2. National associations are already somewhat cooperating.
3. You can get Provincial level or retired CNT training partners to work with which is what many of the top Euro players and clubs already do as I mentioned a while back.

But since you still seem hung up on this Samsonov idea when I keep telling you that many of the clubs already provide enough of a proximity for top players to practice against each other similar to what happens on Super League teams in China, and you regularly like to miss the point to play devil's advocate and push whatever excites you at the given moment, enjoy!

NextLevel, sure you had your point, sorry if I hung up on my big EU projects too much ...
But even on the club level I think those efforts would have to be coordinated. It's just that, if I heard the news on the internetz, that a EU representation with some other guys from US, Canada and of course Brasil : ) is training hard for the upcoming WTTC 20XX, to seriously challenge CNT players ... would really excite me : ) More than that, it should even excite Raineverever, because it would mean, we were to have some REAL battles to watch ...

 

[rainneverever]

JNT announced their goal of beating CNT in 2018 or 2020 WTTTC and 2020 OG to win gold, which sounds funny to me. A more realistic goal for Japan as well as for Germany and Korea is to beat other teams to get to the FINAL.


CNT organizes closed training for major tournaments (WTC, WC not included) with intensive studies of non-CNT rivals, finding out weakness of core players and making strategies, getting more practice partners and imitators. The goal is to beat as many non-CNT players as possible and secure champions for China; the collective efforts are not made for CNT player A to beat CNT player B.
I think it should be the case for other associations, identifying the real threats (to be frank, CNT should not be considered others' threat), like Dima vs Koki Niwa at 2017 WTTC. I am not saying CNT is beyond reach; but one has to go far enough to meet CNT, if seeding is reasonable.

 

[Ioiettino]

FZD said after the match:

(Hugo's BH was really strong, I had to switch up the shots. I played very passive and safe in the 1st 2 games, but I played more aggressive after taking the 2nd game.)

WJPs comments:

(Hugo played well, with his unique technique. From his game, he should've had Chinese coaching before. His short game is decent, as he can drop short and flick. His FH and BH attacks have the two-straight mindset, which is a typical Chinese trait. If he never had a Chinese coach, then that foreign coach has gotta be really good. Even more, his BH is very strong, especially his high-quality chiquita receive, which is very much like that of FZD in his early days. He is capable of strong attacks on both wings. That is typical European style.

He thinks Calderano will be a mainstay opponent for the CNT. Beating Boll 4:1 and LGY 4:0 were no small feats, which proved his worth. But beating Harimoto 4 zip was normal, as many players are capable of beating him. Even though Hugo's technique is rather comprehensive, his flaw is also apparent. He still has to work on his ability to get out of a pinch.)

What do you (does he) mean, "two-straight mindset"?

 

[MasterMyself]

JNT announced their goal of beating CNT in 2018 or 2020 WTTTC and 2020 OG to win gold, which sounds funny to me. A more realistic goal for Japan as well as for Germany and Korea is to beat other teams to get to the FINAL.


CNT organizes closed training for major tournaments (WTC, WC not included) with intensive studies of non-CNT rivals, finding out weakness of core players and making strategies, getting more practice partners and imitators. The goal is to beat as many non-CNT players as possible and secure champions for China; the collective efforts are not made for CNT player A to beat CNT player B.
I think it should be the case for other associations, identifying the real threats (to be frank, CNT should not be considered others' threat), like Dima vs Koki Niwa at 2017 WTTC. I am not saying CNT is beyond reach; but one has to go far enough to meet CNT, if seeding is reasonable.

Fpr Japan , It makes sense to set their own bar higher especially when they are the host nation of Olympic.

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

 

[zeio]

What do you (does he) mean, "two-straight mindset"?

BH
https://youtu.be/kd_IgqTJ8t4?t=17

FH
https://youtu.be/kd_IgqTJ8t4?t=92

On both occasions, it's clear LGY expected a diagonal.

2-straight FH and BH in the same point
https://youtu.be/705-YGSZSvQ?t=21

There're many more. The 2-straight mindset is very crucial when playing lefties.

https://youtu.be/suOW37WdDn8?t=44

 

[Ioiettino]

BH
https://youtu.be/kd_IgqTJ8t4?t=17

FH
https://youtu.be/kd_IgqTJ8t4?t=92

On both occasions, it's clear LGY expected a diagonal.

2-straight FH and BH in the same point
https://youtu.be/705-YGSZSvQ?t=21

There're many more. The 2-straight mindset is very crucial when playing lefties.

https://youtu.be/suOW37WdDn8?t=44

Thanks, very clear now.

 

[zeio]

https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/espor...inedita-para-o-tenis-de-mesa-brasileiro.shtml

A bone age test performed at age 11, however, led him to rule out other sports. The hand x-ray result showed that he would reach a maximum of 1.86 m below for a career in volleyball and perhaps too high for athletics. Today it is 1.82 m.

From the examination, the whole focus turned to table tennis, which Calderano has practiced since the age of ten. Without encouragement, at the beginning parents had to invest in their own pocket for him to travel to international competitions. It was so prominent that an emissary from the international federation sought the family to say that he had an interest in supporting it.

Courtesy of Google Translate

 

[NextLevel]

A world class athlete actually playing table tennis over other sports. Interesting that his parents wanted to invest in this.

 

[jawien]

No no, if I understand it correctly, Hugo was diagnosed to be too short when grownup, for volleyball, so this is why they choose tt - right?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

When one is talking about the rest of the world catching up to China, I love the idea.....I mean, it sounds great. But I think we have to concede that catching up to China actually might mean, having an organization that scouts kids from about 4 years old to find potential talent and have them start training by 6. And by 8 having those kids training 4-6 hours a day with school being secondary.

A government that pays for this also would help. And adults who feel that their kids would want this as their future because of how revered TT stars are.

Then, with the adults, you have to realize that part of why CNT training is so effective is that the CNT trains as a team. It is just worth noting. If all of Europe or Europe, Japan and Korea all got together to train, the idea of there being a top coach overseeing and assigning coaches to players, and determining what training each player needs, getting them to refine their strengths and improve their weaknesses, so that the actual training means and methods were designed to help each individual player's improvement......I just don't see a multinational group getting quite that organized.

And you have to also understand that, in CNT, the guys who don't make it to the top, top, spots, like Hao Shuia, how CNT dropped him down even though he was good at beating other CNT players, he was not good at beating players from outside CNT. Why? He is a player that uses his opponent's power against them. But not a power player himself. Or Yan An, who, at some point it seems it was decided that he didn't have what it took to get to the next level.

CNT has the luxury of rejecting players no other country would be able to reject, and of choosing who they focus on when they put their efforts into developing a player more fully. With a multinational group trying to train together as a team, how do you think it would go over if the top coach just decided, "Tiago Apolonia, he isn't going to be able to get higher. Don't waste your time training him. Use him as a practice partner and get him to learn copy FZD to help train others."

 

[Suga D]

I think multinational cooperations are already happening but of course on a much smaller scale.

Just look at Ochsenhausen and the LMC (Liebherr Masters College)
They have been gathering good players and coaches and been doing some good work.

http://www.masters-college.com/en/team/


Liam Pitchford used to be there too.

Here's an interesting interview with Jean René Mounie (Hugo Calderano's coach) after he was signed to work for the LMC.

http://www.masters-college.com/jean-rene-mounie-wird-trainer-am-liebherr-masters-college/

 

[jawien]

Well of course this is a whole monolithic training system of China that creates those great players and teams.
It must be grounded in the clubs structure too as NextLevel was arguing - definitely.

What I was, more or less talking about, was this little part of CNT's big tournaments preparation process called "closed training". Europe (EU) + some guys from Americas (where else should they go ; ) Japan and Korea is a different story and they can form alliance if they want to. Before Tokyo, Japan actually is a fortress on its own.

So my point is, we as the European Style representatives should gather together from time to time and try to figure out how to beat this dominant Chinese style. Specially before WTTC's. Notice I'm not saying WTTTC - for team events it would truly be impossible to organize - agree. But before individual events, I think it would even be desirable for particular national associations, to send their representatives to this elite group. I'm not talking about specifics of course like the Apolonia case mentioned by Carl, but the general idea. To train with a real purpose and those should be a regular meetings.

 

[Ioiettino]

Here's an interesting interview with Jean René Mounie (Hugo Calderano's coach) after he was signed to work for the LMC.

http://www.masters-college.com/jean-rene-mounie-wird-trainer-am-liebherr-masters-college/

Thanks for the link. Levallois SC is the stuff of legends back in France.

I think this is the way to do it (Ochsenhausen), as well as getting even more international players in the elite national leagues. That "training against one another" basically happens on match day and, as it's been suggested, the downfall of Chinese players may (eventually) come from the closed system, however big it is - I mean the players excelling at beating other Chinese, and failing against internationals.

It's important to keep a healthy dose of variety between training centres and competition among them, to keep fresh ideas and approaches.
Moving past borders - yes, in the sense of getting elite players with a whole variety of styles to play together on a daily basis. But they should aim first and foremost to beat the next training centre.
Centralising everything, other than being pretty unrealistic, is undesirable for partly the same reasons that monopoly is a bad thing in economics; not to mention borderline unethical (all against Big Bad China or something).

 

[jawien]

Not "all against Big Bad China", but a closer cooperation of the EU associations to figure out how we can challenge the Asian style and possibly their dominant players. Is it unethical?

Don't you have faith in the "European/Japan style"? : )

 

[Xylit]

Without reading all those very interesting comments I'd like to add that I don't think every good player's top priority is to beat the Chinese. This might be what Ovtcharov is aiming for right now as he is on top of everyone else. But it is not like Calderano for example has no other competition than chinese players and therefore his focus might be on something else than Ovtcharov's.

Sure, an alliance of the best non-chinese players training together with the goal to beat the Chinese one day sounds nice. But in the end all the non-chinese players are rivals themself and it might not be the best idea for every player to train too much with your competitors.

 

[jawien]

[...] Sure, an alliance of the best non-chinese players training together with the goal to beat the Chinese one day sounds nice. But in the end all the non-chinese players are rivals themself and it might not be the best idea for every player to train too much with your competitors.

So you would rather prefer to be 58th and your "opponent/partner" 68th in the WR, than risking you might be 4th and your "opponent/partner" 3rd after practicing together ... ?
: )

 

[Xylit]

So you would rather prefer to be 58th and your "opponent/partner" 68th in the WR, than risking you might be 4th and your "opponent/partner" 3rd after practicing together ... ?
: )

Or you are already a top non-chinese player with a decent top 20 world rank, being able to win a lot against other non-chinese top players and therefore earn good money until a chinese player gets in your way. After intense training for a longer period of time your rivals get used to your style and are more likely to beat you, resulting in less prize money for you.

I know where you are coming from. But some players would benefit more from such a training alliance than others. And in the end they are all opponents, everyone has to look for his own way to earn a piece of the small prize money cake.

It is not unusual that players don't want to participate in tournaments right before a big event just to hide some of their new secrets from their opponents.

 

[jawien]

Or you are already a top non-chinese player with a decent top 20 world rank, being able to win a lot against other non-chinese top players and therefore earn good money until a chinese player gets in your way. After intense training for a longer period of time your rivals get used to your style and are more likely to beat you, resulting in less prize money for you.[...]

So maybe an offer should be directed to those non-top 20 players ... they would become much better soon anyway ... ha ha ; )
Yeah ... I have no good answer here.

 

[rainneverever]

Not too long ago CNT occupied WR 1-4 for quite some time, but those 4 are not training/practice partners of each others. Other than CTTSL and national tournaments, they have some chances to compete with each other in internal trials and warmups but those are more for identifying weakness and testing training progress. I don't think it necessary and possible for two non-CNT players to reach #3 and #4 by practicing and competing with each other. It may work better to find 2 - 3 #30-50 level training partners with different strength or style.