Slower rubbers to learn better technique?

[UpSideDownCarl]

Sorry guys. I know I've been MIA. But here I am.

As far as I am concerned, slower rubbers is not what you want. Yep I said that.

What you would want is a slower BLADE. A blade slow enough so you could use something like a tensor rubber. You could use a more control oriented tensor like like the Xiom Vega series.

You could also use Chinese rubber.

But you want some rubber that is good for looping and for learning to loop. Because higher level play comes from learning how to create and use heavy spin. As you learn how to create heavy spin, you will learn how to counter heavy spin. Those two skills are learned side by side.

So, an All+ to Off- blade with good dwell time, maybe some flex, good for spinning the ball, yes. Slow rubbers? Not unless you mean H3. [emoji2]

It is worth learning to spin the ball. And the longer you delay using modern rubbers, the longer you will delay really learning the art of spinning the ball.

And before Der_Echte tries to say he is saying this before NextLevel gets to say it:

"I like putting heavy topspin on the ball."




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[NextLevel]

From personal experience I found that going from slower rubbers such as Mark V, Rakza 7 soft, Xiom Europe to fast
rubbers such as Rakza 9,X, Xiom V Pro, Tenergy etc etc that it was extremely difficult to keep my forehand on the table.
The extra catapult is very noticeable and can lead to a lot of errors.

If you force yourself to learn the fast rubbers by changing your technique, you'll find that you'll need fast
bat speed and a lighter brush to keep the ball on the table. To get the faster bat speed you'll need better
use of your legs, torso, arm and you'll need better timing to get the thin brush.

The benefits of this though is much more spin
and speed on your shots.

In that sense, it takes better technique to use fast rubbers consistently.

I'm not sure where slow rubbers need better technique comes from.

If the catapult from a fast rubber is driving you crazy, I recommend to people to use 1.9mm-2.0mm sponge. Dont use max, especially if the sponge is hard (44 degrees and above). You are probably a good player, so don't take this as a recommendation for you.

The other thing is that slow vs fast rubbers is confusing. What should probably be discussed is spin/grip and catapult, and not so much fast and slow.

 

[Shuki]

If you're a developing player I wouldn't recommend a slow rubber, or for that even a slow blade. I do however, recommend a blade that feels good in your hand and has good vibration. (please no rocket launchers).

For a rubber where you want to develop your technique and improve I recommend getting something very SOFT. With softer rubbers it's easier to feel the vibration in the blade that you're using.

Lets examine two scenarios

Both of these scenarios have the same blade lets say a stiga clipper because it's known for good feeling and good wood.

First scenario we will have a HARD rubber like DHS Hurricane 3 rubber.

Someone sends you an extremely heavy topspin ball and you close your raquet over the top of the ball and actively try to block the ball. But unfortunately the ball had more topspin than you were expecting and still flew long. You didn't feel a lot of vibration in your raquet because of the hard rubber.

Secondly, now this is where you'll see soft is good, now we're using something soft like Tibhar evolution FX-P

The same scenario just happened except this time since the rubber you're using was so soft, you could really feel the ball dig through the sponge all the way to the blade and cause lots of vibration.

The reason this vibration is so good, is because the way you learn to feel the vibration tells you EXACTLY what you messed up. It can tell you how much more you need to close your raquet over the ball to keep the ball on the table. As you grow more in tune with your paddle's vibration you'll gain more and more control because you'll be able to fix your mistakes quickly. It's like the blade telling you "hey close it 10degrees farther"



When I use harder rubbers, I tried MX-P recently again because it really does product quite a bit of spin and speed. I lose that feeling of that vibration and my game goes down quite a bit.

 

[NextLevel]

If you're a developing player I wouldn't recommend a slow rubber, or for that even a slow blade. I do however, recommend a blade that feels good in your hand and has good vibration. (please no rocket launchers).

For a rubber where you want to develop your technique and improve I recommend getting something very SOFT. With softer rubbers it's easier to feel the vibration in the blade that you're using.

Lets examine two scenarios

Both of these scenarios have the same blade lets say a stiga clipper because it's known for good feeling and good wood.

First scenario we will have a HARD rubber like DHS Hurricane 3 rubber.

Someone sends you an extremely heavy topspin ball and you close your raquet over the top of the ball and actively try to block the ball. But unfortunately the ball had more topspin than you were expecting and still flew long. You didn't feel a lot of vibration in your raquet because of the hard rubber.

Secondly, now this is where you'll see soft is good, now we're using something soft like Tibhar evolution FX-P

The same scenario just happened except this time since the rubber you're using was so soft, you could really feel the ball dig through the sponge all the way to the blade and cause lots of vibration.

The reason this vibration is so good, is because the way you learn to feel the vibration tells you EXACTLY what you messed up. It can tell you how much more you need to close your raquet over the ball to keep the ball on the table. As you grow more in tune with your paddle's vibration you'll gain more and more control because you'll be able to fix your mistakes quickly. It's like the blade telling you "hey close it 10degrees farther"



When I use harder rubbers, I tried MX-P recently again because it really does product quite a bit of spin and speed. I lose that feeling of that vibration and my game goes down quite a bit.

Sidebar: closing your paddle over the ball will retard your blocking for a long time. Learn to shape the ball or come round the side of it or raise your paddle higher.

 

[Der_Echte]

Carl... but everyone knows Der_Echte is obcessed with heavy spin...

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[Shuki]

Sidebar: closing your paddle over the ball will retard your blocking for a long time. Learn to shape the ball or come round the side of it or raise your paddle higher.

agreed, this was mostly for the sake of explaining the rubber recommendation though.

glad you pointed this out though, wouldn't want people to take my words here and live by them.

 

[Forte]

I went from a (fairly) hard Stiga Rosewood V blade to a slower Stiga Energy Wood WRB, keeping my T64 rubbers. The difference for me was huge and I improved some strokes almost immediately. And with only little practice my backhand improved some 100%. So I also believe in the slower BLADE-path, even though I can only refer to personal experience.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl... but everyone knows Der_Echte is obcessed with heavy spin...

I guess this should be added for reference:

 

[Chuckz]

...really good video

I moved from Tibhar stratus powerwood (TSPW, 91g) with Cornilleau Target 45 max on FH and 2mm on BH (raquet 191g) to Stiga Infinity (86g) with Cornilleau Target Pro GT-M43 2mm on both sides (raquet 182g). Whole setup is lighter, with better balance and according to me slower. My BH topspin got better and it was surely caused by head heavy TSPW (head size 182x152mm). I was not able to make sufficient BH swing on time. With TSPW my FH loop was better than with my new setup, but this opens door to improve my technique. Also smaller head (155x150mm) will help me to hit the ball more precisely. So according to me also weight of the whole raquet can help to improve the technique. I had only 10 hours playing with new raquet and I can see improvements.

 

[Liten]

Im sort of tilted in the other direction... I searched the net for a fast modern blade with big sweetspot to kickstart my return to this fabulous sport some years ago. Settled for the Stiga Hybrid Wood 9 ply carbon/wood-blade. I tried chinese rubbers on it, I tried tensor rubbers, I tried short pips, I tried my current favs- rakzas... It just doesent give me the feedback I whant. Sure, paired with the StigaBoost series of rubbers, it was pretty fast. But still, it feels "flat", "dead", "dull"..
With a stroke of luck (and good guidance from members in here) I got hold of an old heavy 5 ply wood blade (banda jo waldner) that littery has blown both the Hybrid Wood and later buys (for example a cpen DHS PG7) out of the water.. Its both faster and more responsive. Try old, heavy, all wood, 5 or 7 ply blades.. Stiga, Banda, Donic etc.. I bet youll like it!

 

[NextLevel]

FWIW, I don't believe in using traditional rubbers to do anything in TT related to topspin unless you just like to use them for the blocking. Advanced topspin is just harder to play with Mark V etc. What I do for cost and commitment reasons is to start most of my students on Dawei XP 2008. But immediately they develop good topspin games (as in good basic strokes), we start testing Evolution or Omega V or even Tenergy if they have the money for it. Control is about technique and if they have it, the just have to know how to hit the ball properly and adjust. The key to getting better at using advanced rubbers is to stop hitting the back of the ball so damn much. Hit round the side of the ball. Once you practice it, then all this stuff about the rubber being to advanced starts becoming less of an issue. But it is coaching and training that fixes this. IF you are going to be tight and focus on putting the ball on the table with bad strokes, nothing will change. But if you learn the proper technique and practice, whether you miss or you make it, over time, your body will figure it out.

What I will stress is Shuki's point about feedback. I prefer to focus on the blade and not the rubber but both are important. I have heard so many lower rated players complain about vibrations. STOP IT! If you don't have touch or proper technique, vibrations help you get the feedback to adjust your grip tension or contact quality for the stroke. No one knows the exact amount that is ideal for each individual, but it is annoying to hear someone who has not developed the feel to play the ball short complain that his blade has too much vibration. Use the vibrations as a learning tool and then use another blade after your technique is developed and your body is attuned to seeking vibrations in whatever you use because you need some to learn. You may be surprised that the other blade comes with worse results on many things but that is life.

 

[kinocchio]

I think that ttmonster make a good point. That's also the reason I want to go back to slower rubbers. To learn to judge the ball beter.

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[Archosaurus]

Sidebar: closing your paddle over the ball will retard your blocking for a long time. Learn to shape the ball or come round the side of it or raise your paddle higher.

I know what is meant with you saying that, but what about high level blocking technique ie: Kenta Matsudaira, where the angle is very closed?

Surely it's better to block the ball fast and low and not slow and high. I fail to see how blocking a pretty heavily topspinning ball with the blade higher will help it not fly off the edge, shouldn't it actually assist in it flying off?

Or do you mean closing the angle AND holding the blade higher? But is that not "closing your paddle over the ball"?

EDIT: Ah, now I might get it. You mean making contact more to the side where the spin is less to get the ball to fly faster and onto the table, rather than eating all the topspin and getting a very high, very slow block?

 

[NextLevel]

I know what is meant with you saying that, but what about high level blocking technique ie: Kenta Matsudaira, where the angle is very closed?

Surely it's better to block the ball fast and low and not slow and high. I fail to see how blocking a pretty heavily topspinning ball with the blade higher will help it not fly off the edge, shouldn't it actually assist in it flying off?

Or do you mean closing the angle AND holding the blade higher? But is that not "closing your paddle over the ball"?

EDIT: Ah, now I might get it. You mean making contact more to the side where the spin is less to get the ball to fly faster and onto the table, rather than eating all the topspin and getting a very high, very slow block?

You need more zen in your life, Archo.

How pros learned and think is not on video. If you pretend to do what they do without learning or the right thought process, the results will often be very different.

 

[Archosaurus]

You need more zen in your life, Archo.

How pros learned and think is not on video. If you pretend to do what they do without learning or the right thought process, the results will often be very different.

I get your point, but I still don't understand what exactly you meant when saying that blocking with the angle closed will not be good for your progress.

I cannot block with a very closed angle like you see at 2600 USATT+, and I prefer a safer, higher, slower more flat block a little along the ball's side. I've got a ton of blocking practice in matches and developed it there, but I haven't extensively drilled it, so it's not like I'm trying to imitate Kenta, arguably the best blocking player.

Surely, if I tried imitating him and blocked with a very advanced technique and didn't simply have the touch for it, a flatter block would be better.

Now, why exactly holding the paddle higher and not coming over the ball at all is better, I do not understand. Even at my lowly level, a friend of mine can produce quite respectable topspin with a very soft, very fast brushing stroke (He must be an Istvan Jonyer fan ), and I can block his loops as well, but if I don't close the angle, there is no way the ball is going to hit the table.

Now, if everyone was flat hitting, then I understand the point completely.

 

[NextLevel]

I get your point, but I still don't understand what exactly you meant when saying that blocking with the angle closed will not be good for your progress.

I cannot block with a very closed angle like you see at 2600 USATT+, and I prefer a safer, higher, slower more flat block a little along the ball's side. I've got a ton of blocking practice in matches and developed it there, but I haven't extensively drilled it, so it's not like I'm trying to imitate Kenta, arguably the best blocking player.

Surely, if I tried imitating him and blocked with a very advanced technique and didn't simply have the touch for it, a flatter block would be better.

Now, why exactly holding the paddle higher and not coming over the ball at all is better, I do not understand. Even at my lowly level, a friend of mine can produce quite respectable topspin with a very soft, very fast brushing stroke (He must be an Istvan Jonyer fan ), and I can block his loops as well, but if I don't close the angle, there is no way the ball is going to hit the table.

Now, if everyone was flat hitting, then I understand the point completely.

When better players told me these things, I learned over time to just keep quiet and try it out in the hopes of one day figuring it out. It took me 2 years to understand what someone meant when he said you needed only one topspin stroke in table tennis. One day, you might figure out why it makes more sense to raise the paddle to improve blocking consistency than to close the paddle. It's married to other things in a technical system that requires you wait for the ball rather than reaching out to it, but in the end, TT is learned by experience, not by questioning.

 

[Archosaurus]

When better players told me these things, I learned over time to just keep quiet and try it out in the hopes of one day figuring it out. It took me 2 years to understand what someone meant when he said you needed only one topspin stroke in table tennis. One day, you might figure out why it makes more sense to raise the paddle to improve blocking consistency than to close the paddle. It's married to other things in a technical system that requires you wait for the ball rather than reaching out to it, but in the end, TT is learned by experience, not by questioning.

I block fairly close to the body with the paddle pretty high, so I think I understand the gist of what you're saying.

What I don't understand is why exactly attempting to block in another way would hamper progress. I think I'm doing things right in this regard, so I might never come to experience it myself, thus I want some knowledge about why exactly it's bad.

A more open, higher paddle ends up with a slower, higher, but also more arcing and consistent trajectory than an advanced block that's low and lighting fast. It won't take years to figure that out.

A more open, higher paddle will also be better against people who don't have that much topspin on their strokes: the kind of people you will likely be playing when you're developing.

You must open the angle and raise the paddle if you wish to block such a shot, and that rings true to just about any normal blocking shot. Less spin = more open. Higher apex = higher contact.


When you play people who can actually spin the ball, won't you run into problems if you keep using this technique without adapting?

 

[NextLevel]

I block fairly close to the body with the paddle pretty high, so I think I understand the gist of what you're saying.

What I don't understand is why exactly attempting to block in another way would hamper progress. I think I'm doing things right in this regard, so I might never come to experience it myself, thus I want some knowledge about why exactly it's bad.

A more open, higher paddle ends up with a slower, higher, but also more arcing and consistent trajectory than an advanced block that's low and lighting fast. It won't take years to figure that out.

A more open, higher paddle will also be better against people who don't have that much topspin on their strokes: the kind of people you will likely be playing when you're developing.

You must open the angle and raise the paddle if you wish to block such a shot, and that rings true to just about any normal blocking shot. Less spin = more open. Higher apex = higher contact.


When you play people who can actually spin the ball, won't you run into problems if you keep using this technique without adapting?

Coach someone and tell them to close the paddle more when blocking heavy topspin. See what happens. Then let me know why you think it is bad advice. Do the same and tell them to raise the paddle higher vs heavy topspin.

I don't say things from rationalization, I say things from experience.

 

[Archosaurus]

Coach someone and tell them to close the paddle more when blocking heavy topspin. See what happens. Then let me know why you think it is bad advice. Do the same and tell them to raise the paddle higher vs heavy topspin.

I don't say things from rationalization, I say things from experience.

While I have a pretty good idea what will happen, I must ask: Are you requesting they close the angle AND raise it, or only raise it without closing the angle?

Although when I coach my friend next time, I will improve our spin response by making us loop onto a paddle at different degrees of closing and contacting at different parts of the trajectory, just to make sure I'm not talking nonsense here.

 

[Shuki]

Sarcasm and jokes are often hard to read over the internet. Arch please tell me you're joking when you say you've been coaching people.