Something to think about regarding technique

[Persistence TT]

Brian Pace is a much better communicator and leader than he gets credit for. As a player, when he was in Uni, he was a top amature. He would have played position 5 or 6 for 2.Bundesliga level at his prime. That is pretty good level, he isn't a country chump. He knows fundamentals and can articulate them well.

did he ever play at the bundesliga?Executing perfect forehand topspins is easy when the opponent cant read your serves or when they give you easy balls. I have watched some of his series via a friend, he is really good at teaching fundamentals to freshstarters but he lacks the details needed to teach a player who is willing to go from newbie to intermediate level or a good amateur.

Im not biased towards pingskills or ttedge its just my personal opinion after all but I think that for me at least, I would have a lot more to learn from Brett Clarke or Henzell because they have played at a much higer level than Brian and now exactly the steps needed to develop a perfect technique. Ping skills were also top 100-150 when they played if i remember correctly, much higher level of practice/opponents than brian pace

 

[Archosaurus]

TTFrenzy does have a point.

Brian mostly plays pretty much trash players compared to "actual" high level players. They can't match a player who is at least as solid as Brian.

It's the same effect that happens when some lower professionals, who are immensely good, go and play Ma Long and look like utter amateurs.

It's under pressure, against the same or higher level opponents, when a technique should be judged. Not in a drill or shadowing.

One of the biggest differences between amateurs and pros is that pros generally play better in their matches, and amateurs play better in their practice.

 

[NextLevel]

did he ever play at the bundesliga?Executing perfect forehand topspins is easy when the opponent cant read your serves or when they give you easy balls. I have watched some of his series via a friend, he is really good at teaching fundamentals to freshstarters but he lacks the details needed to teach a player who is willing to go from newbie to intermediate level or a good amateur.

Im not biased towards pingskills or ttedge its just my personal opinion after all but I think that for me at least, I would have a lot more to learn from Brett Clarke or Henzell because they have played at a much higer level than Brian and now exactly the steps needed to develop a perfect technique. Ping skills were also top 100-150 when they played if i remember correctly, much higher level of practice/opponents than brian pace

Brian Pace was 2500-2600 USATT for most of his extended playing peak. That is 2100-2300 TTR.

When I look at him and imagine him coaching me, I can appreciate some of his shortcomings but I would find those shortcomings in 95% of coaches who got good as children and haven't developed relatively strong high level adults systematically. When you got good as a kid, you are relatively inexperienced at managing the learning issues adults face.

Ping Skills and TTEdge are better at teaching than many world class players and coaches. Speaking very frankly, I actually would not consider William an especially talented technical teacher for amateurs and would argue that Brett more than quintupled the value of TTEdge to amateurs.

Brian whatever you think of him has a systematic approach. I don't think he was always good on development process but his technical teaching is largely spot on and I can recommend that without reservation, especially on forehand looping.

 

[Archosaurus]

Brett doesn't go as in-depth as I'd like (Although I'm sure he would if I signed up for paid coaching.) but his teaching of fundamentals to beginners is exceptional.

I wouldn't have ever got as good as I am now with my limited experience had it not been for Pingskills' and TTEdge's content. Of course, there was far more on the background (Hours of reading, videos and speaking to players/coaches) but the basics can be very well learned via Brett's videos.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Kind of entertaining to hear people 600-1000 points lower than Brian critiquing him.

Is he top 10 or top 100 in the world? No. But his technique is good enough to explain the mechanics of a good shot and to help someone improve his technique.

But....man....you guys have really taken this subject far away from the original subject of this thread--WHICH WAS--HOW OLDER PLAYERS WHO START TO HAVE INJURIES AND MOBILITY ISSUES NEED TO FIND TECHNIQUES THAT DON'T COMPROMISE THE HEALTH OF THEIR BODY!!!!


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[Der_Echte]

Carl... are U sayin' dat this thread got hijacked by mission creep???!!! Happens all the time as long as we reel it in every now and then.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl... are U sayin' dat this thread got hijacked by mission creep???!!! Happens all the time as long as we reel it in every now and then.

Well it is fun and funny see so much of this:

Happening to DTop's thread.

Particularly gotta love the 1500 level expert.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Persistence TT]

TTFrenzy does have a point.

Brian mostly plays pretty much trash players compared to "actual" high level players. They can't match a player who is at least as solid as Brian.

It's the same effect that happens when some lower professionals, who are immensely good, go and play Ma Long and look like utter amateurs.

It's under pressure, against the same or higher level opponents, when a technique should be judged. Not in a drill or shadowing.

One of the biggest differences between amateurs and pros is that pros generally play better in their matches, and amateurs play better in their practice.

My thoughts exactly, Nextlevel rating points dont mean nothing to me personaly. It is just an indication and 2600 in usa TT does not mean that he could cope in the bundesliga in the 90's. Bundesliga back then was a small european championship. EVery europe beast played there, maybe he was good enough for the 3rd or 4rth league judging by the opponents he plays against right now.

Carl im not saying his not good enough to teach newbies, im saying that if u are an intermediate or newbie and want to go to the nextlevel (lol ) its better to check ttedge or brett. even better if you have a good coach besides you cause lets face it, all of the se guys make videos to earn money, not because they want to offer for free. and of course im totally ok with that they put their effort to it and their 20-30 years of experience so its natural to expect something back

 

[Baal]

One of the most insightful and helpful coaches I ever had as an adult player was 2600-2700 at the time. One of the least insightful coaches I ever had as an adult player was 2500-2600. One coach I had who was somewhere in the middle was about 2550, but he would have seriously injured me if I had kept working with him, even though he is one of my best friends now. Another coach I had who was fantastic with adults was around 2400.

Coaching adults requires a different skill set than coaching kids.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And all this conversation seems to miss a few key points.

1) Brian Pace is a decent enough player to demonstrate a fairly nice looking loop even if he is not competent to play Fang Bo competitively. Very few people are anyway.

2) None of this changes the FACT, that, if you take Nikoli's video and pause frame by frame, his hips are moving in the right direction--forward--as he contacts the ball.

3) It is worth it to be kind and courteous when someone has posted video of themselves. And if you decide you want to critique their technique, it is worth having video of yourself readily available for posting, because, when your video footage is out there, you are much more likely to critique someone else's technique in a more kindly manner than if nobody has seen you play. And, often when nobody has seen a person play, it seems like that person feels more comfortable to say things that may not be quite so nice. Even when they are not so accurate.

4) DTop's thread has officially been hijacked by some of the characters from his own videos.

Tenergy Schmenergy. Modern players using hardbat wouldn't have stood a chance against Marty Reisman's off the bounce forehand drive. LOL.




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[Persistence TT]

And all this conversation seems to miss a few key points.

1) Brian Pace is a decent enough player to demonstrate a fairly nice looking loop even if he is not competent to play Fang Bo competitively. Very few people are anyway.

2) None of this changes the FACT, that, if you take Nikoli's video and pause frame by frame, his hips are moving in the right direction--forward--as he contacts the ball.

3) It is worth it to be kind and courteous when someone has posted video of themselves. And if you decide you want to critique their technique, it is worth having video of yourself readily available for posting, because, when your video footage is out there, you are much more likely to critique someone else's technique in a more kindly manner than if nobody has seen you play. And, often when nobody has seen a person play, it seems like that person feels more comfortable to say things that may not be quite so nice. Even when they are not so accurate.

4) DTop's thread has officially been hijacked by some of the characters from his own videos.

Tenergy Schmenergy. Modern players using hardbat wouldn't have stood a chance against Marty Reisman's off the bounce forehand drive. LOL.




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I only disagree with 3. The fact that someone has not posted videos does not mean that he will not be nice. being courteous is a matter of character after all.

One of the top 10 players in Greece was considered "rude" and "insulting" by members in mytt because he said that jimmy butler vs kunal chodri final 2014 usa champs was not so high level as he expected. He doesnt have to post a video of himself playing to prove anything to anyone, same thing goes for everybody .

unless of course you are a "pnachtwey" type of forum person and player. its all good its just a forum

 

[NextLevel]

TTFrenzy, can you please post the video you shared recently of your practice and maybe a match? Thanks.

 

[NextLevel]

I only disagree with 3. The fact that someone has not posted videos does not mean that he will not be nice. being courteous is a matter of character after all.

One of the top 10 players in Greece was considered "rude" and "insulting" by members in mytt because he said that jimmy butler vs kunal chodri final 2014 usa champs was not so high level as he expected. He doesnt have to post a video of himself playing to prove anything to anyone, same thing goes for everybody .

unless of course you are a "pnachtwey" type of forum person and player. its all good its just a forum

Since I was Malin's biggest critic and the most vocal opponent of his criticism, may I point out that as familiar as you might be with his play, that he had never posted video of his practice before making that comment? Even the later video he posted was pretty poor.

And it wasn't the low level that was the problem as the ranking of the players was public info, it was other comments from people that estimated their playing level in Europe when objective measures like world ranking were available that was really questionable. But the thread is publicly on mytt. At least we don't have to take anyone's view on this as gospel.

 

[Persistence TT]

Are you being sarcastic cause next level i havent post any video of me only videos of 2 serves recorded years ago. You can search ttfrenzy on youtube. if I find a reason to post a practice session or a match I will. But like i said a few days ago, I can always post a video of me crushing decent players and make it look like im a really good player so what's the point ?

I play TT at a decent level enough to give advice to players that considered beginners. Anyway, although i dont like exposing myself on the internet cause there are also other greek players here, once i get to play again and record a decent training/match i will post it.

p.s. i dont understand all this fuss about players posting videos if they want to share their opinions, even if a player is a total noob like pnachtwey he always has the right to express himself about TT. its the internet and anybody can claim anything, so if someone takes internet advices too seriously and doesnt focus on his training with a coach then its his problem not pnachtwey's or brett's or ttedge's

brett;s and ttedge;s videos are gold but how much do they matter if you dont have a guidance during training?

 

[Persistence TT]

Since I was Malin's biggest critic and the most vocal opponent of his criticism, may I point out that as familiar as you might be with his play, that he had never posted video of his practice before making that comment? Even the later video he posted was pretty poor.

And it wasn't the low level that was the problem as the ranking of the players was public info, it was other comments from people that estimated their playing level in Europe when objective measures like world ranking were available that was really questionable. But the thread is publicly on mytt. At least we don't have to take anyone's view on this as gospel.

i honestly dont remember who critiqued malin cause the whole thread was spammed and derailed. but I can assure you that he could be no4 in greek national team if he didnt gave up at an early age. of course this does not mean that what he said about jim butler was correct or polite. He also currently plays in the pro B of France, I dont follow rankings/ratings to know each player's value and Im sure he didnt know how good was butler at his prime

 

[NextLevel]

Are you being sarcastic cause next level i havent post any video of me only videos of 2 serves recorded years ago. You can search ttfrenzy on youtube. if I find a reason to post a practice session or a match I will. But like i said a few days ago, I can always post a video of me crushing decent players and make it look like im a really good player so what's the point ?

I play TT at a decent level enough to give advice to players that considered beginners. Anyway, although i dont like exposing myself on the internet cause there are also other greek players here, once i get to play again and record a decent training/match i will post it.

p.s. i dont understand all this fuss about players posting videos if they want to share their opinions, even if a player is a total noob like pnachtwey he always has the right to express himself about TT. its the internet and anybody can claim anything, so if someone takes internet advices too seriously and doesnt focus on his training with a coach then its his problem not pnachtwey's or brett's or ttedge's

brett;s and ttedge;s videos are gold but how much do they matter if you dont have a guidance during training?

I must have mixed you up with someone else - my apologies.

Why take this stuff seriously? Because people take some of these things seriously and assume that people posting are good players. You may not and that is fine.

You can post video crushing anyone but it doesn't make you look good as people can see and analyze your technique. 2000 level technique is 2000 level technique no matter who you use it against. Pnatchwey posted video of himself doing third ball against another player and it looked bad, no matter how many shots he made. Many people consider themselves good enough to give advice, including yourself, so it helps people to know who they are getting advice from.

There is a reason why Brett asks people to videotape themselves and review for feedback. You can guide yourself if you know what to look for. That is what Brett tries to teach.

 

[NextLevel]

i honestly dont remember who critiqued malin cause the whole thread was spammed and derailed. but I can assure you that he could be no4 in greek national team if he didnt gave up at an early age. of course this does not mean that what he said about jim butler was correct or polite. He also currently plays in the pro B of France, I dont follow rankings/ratings to know each player's value and Im sure he didnt know how good was butler at his prime

No one doubts Malin is a high level player, but mytt posters were unfamiliar with him. Moreover, criticizing public figures is not what this is about. This is really about reviewing private training from someone who has decided to offer themselves for public criticism/illustration. Other people who have done similar things tend to be more cognizant of the golden rule.

 

[Persistence TT]

I must have mixed you up with someone else - my apologies.

Why take this stuff seriously? Because people take some of these things seriously and assume that people posting are good players. You may not and that is fine.

You can post video crushing anyone but it doesn't make you look good as people can see and analyze your technique. 2000 level technique is 2000 level technique no matter who you use it against. Pnatchwey posted video of himself doing third ball against another player and it looked bad, no matter how many shots he made. Many people consider themselves good enough to give advice, including yourself, so it helps people to know who they are getting advice from.

There is a reason why Brett asks people to videotape themselves and review for feedback. You can guide yourself if you know what to look for. That is what Brett tries to teach.

Well you convinced me with that bold sentece I like the way you approach this issue. Long time ago i had lots of matches but my hard disk was destroyed. I didnt want to upload them cause i know my mistakes very well I dont need the net users to tell me what im doing wrong ...so I was thinking that exposing myself on the net would get me answering to guys like pnachtwey and I dont like getting to pointless debates with players that talk the talk and cant walk the walk!

Anyway, just because you convinced me with your arguements, I will upload a small video when I have the chance, maybe even tomorrow

 

[DTopSpirit]

Video on the way soon - have finalised the practice match part and just need to shoot a quick couple of minutes explaining the grip and accompanying philosophy. With any luck should be available in an hour or two.

The practice match video isn't perfect but I think it will give you guys the general idea of what I was trying to explain in my first few posts.

Stay tuned! (or boosted or whatever)

Sorry - going to be at least another 6-7 hours. I can't upload it yet because uploading to YouTube slows down my internet and my partner needs it for work at the moment. I'll upload it when we head out later, and then post the link when I get back from table tennis tonight.

Cheers,
Greg

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well you convinced me with that bold sentece I like the way you approach this issue. Long time ago i had lots of matches but my hard disk was destroyed. I didnt want to upload them cause i know my mistakes very well I dont need the net users to tell me what im doing wrong ...so I was thinking that exposing myself on the net would get me answering to guys like pnachtwey and I dont like getting to pointless debates with players that talk the talk and cant walk the walk!

Anyway, just because you convinced me with your arguements, I will upload a small video when I have the chance, maybe even tomorrow

Yay. You got the point. Someone is giving all this advice. They sound like they know what they are talking about. They are giving everyone all this advice and they sound like they think they are a pretty high level player. And then you see them play and they can't even do a loop properly and what they think is a loop is a slap and no matter how you slice it, they are about 1400 and think they are 2100. And you are listing to their comments and thinking the person knows what they are talking about but every so often there are comments that you think, "where did he come up with that. That is just completely weird and not right." And then you realize the guy is playing for 18 months, has no coach, is totally self taught and is about 1300.

Now there is nothing wrong with being whatever level you are. And there is nothing wrong with being self taught and enthusiastic about table tennis. But when you don't know what you are talking about and you don't know you don't know what you are talking about, and you are presenting yourself as an expert, sometimes something weird is going on. And on the internet there are a lot of people who won't be able to tell by words that someone is actually that 1300 level expert who is telling the pro player at the end of DTop's video, "yeah, you need to work on your forehand. It's a bit weak!" Even though that 1300 level expert has claimed a moment before: "I don't need coaching. I watched Ma Long looping on YouTube and I'm copying him. Once I find the right rubber to go with my super duper fast blade I'll be unstoppable."

And, TTFrenzy, your example is worth exploring: think of how many people might think Pnachtwey knew what he was talking about and could do it, if he hadn't posted video where you can see he doesn't know how to spin the ball.