Something to think about regarding technique

[Archosaurus]

What does that change in jumping away from the ball being a good or bad thing? I don't see the logic in "If I don't do it, it's bad, but if I do it, it's good."

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

What does that change in jumping away from the ball being a good or bad thing? I don't see the logic in "If I don't do it, it's bad, but if I do it, it's good."

Well, here is the thing, when someone has posted videos of themself, they are much more likely to be kind about there, um, "constructive" criticism of other people's form and level. And, often, when someone is actually a higher level, they also understand how much it takes to get to a higher level so they are also fairly kind when giving constructive criticism.

You have made a bunch of comments about videos of other's play where you were very comfortable being what might be considered not so polite in your criticisms of videos of other people's play. It makes you sound like you think you do everything perfectly and are a top rate player. But then there are other things that make it sound like you might not really know what you are talking about.

So, if you posted video of yourself, you might think out more fully how you would want others to give you feedback before you started ripping into someone else's technique.

And in the video in question, he most definitely does not jump AWAY FROM THE BALL while looping. His hip rotation causes his right foot to come off the ground and move in the direction of the hip rotation which is also the direction the ball is going.

You will see the same foot adjustment to the hip rotation in many of these loops and you will see this guy's feet leave the ground far more than that.

 

[Archosaurus]

His entire body is physically moving away from the ball on contact. Brian is demonstrating the opposite, and moving the legs forward and not in a circular fashion either: the load transfer movement is done through the knees. It's not about if your feet leave the ground, it's about how much energy is transferred in what direction.

I never said anything bad about Nikoli's shot, I'd just hate to see an otherwise solid shot be ruined by this habit. It has a profound effect on the shot, and I don't understand why you haven't noticed as well.



I assume Nikoli has a good understanding of the shot due to him demonstrating it via text, but this foot movement is probably a habit he has not noticed. That is why I took it up. I'd want anyone to do the same to me, lest I waste weeks/months/years, grooving a bad habit in.


Also, I'd really want an example of what things I say that makes it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not a challenge: I really want to know what you think is nonsense in what I'm saying.

 

[Baal]

I'm at an age and state of health where I have to look for changes in my technique that make things a bit easier on my body, while still allowing me to compete at a similar level to what I used to do. So these thoughts have come about from that search for techniques that are easier on my body.

Modern forehand loop technique used by the pros requires:


1) deeply bent knees
2) biggish body rotation
3) largish swing
4) Footwork to move you left-right and back-forward to put you in position to use your optimal forehand technique. You need time to make that big body turn and large swing, so you can't always play up close to the table.

If you get older or injured and you can't fulfill some or all of these requirements, what can you do about it to allow you to hit a decent forehand loop using normal technique? How do you work around it?

Most things I read on the internet focus on managing your body rather than modifying your technique - i.e. take painkillers, only really bend your knees for important matches, massage, yoga, get fitter etc. But if your knee isn't going to get better, or your lower back has arthritis, what then? Do all older players with physical limitations either have to make things worse trying to emulate the pros, or just stick to pushing, blocking and flat hitting?

Let's face it, with modern table tennis the loop is the killer stroke that you want to be able to play if you can. So rather than taking the modern loop template and trying to fit a 40-50 year old body into that mold, perhaps there are other ways to still allow us to move the racket through a loop swing path and achieve a loop, but that don't actually require the ability to bend the knees deeply, or do big body turns, or be able to move around quickly. It might not be standard loop technique as we know it, but it allows people with physical limitations to still achieve a quite powerful loop. By shifting the emphasis to the wrist and forearm, and making better use of the strong wrist motion instead of the weak wrist motion, a lot of power can be achieved without needing a big body turn or deep knee bend, or even a large swing.

Could even more power be generated by using these things? Sure. Do I still bend my knees and turn my body when using this technique. Yep - although not as much as I had to before - and I've got 20+ years of habit in bending my knees and turning my body as well. But I guess I'm coming from the point of view of what can be done by someone who is physically restricted, not a free moving 20 year old.

I'm not saying I've discovered a magic new method or anything. But I do think that with a couple of months of practice, an overweight 45 year old with bad knees and a bad back can still produce a pretty strong forehand loop without aggravating his physical problems too much, and not needing to use excessive footwork. I know, because I'm doing it now.

I might try to get a little video this week to demonstrate what I'm doing. I'm hitting on Friday so I might be able to put something together for the weekend, with luck.

TLDR: If you were a player that can't bend your knees, rotate your back much, or move around that much, how would you go about changing your technique to produce a strong forehand loop? What options do you have?

I think this is exactly correct. I have been thinking and writing the same thing for awhile. There is optimum technique in an absolute sense (shown by world's top players, choose your favorite one) and then there is optimum technique for a player with certain physical limitations (most of us, all of us beyond a certain age). These are not the same thing. If it is physically impossible to execute the ideal shot, then you have to ask where do you sacrifice?

IMHO, the two Prime Directives are that you have to maintain balance after the shot and you have to minimize mis-timing. But you still need to have enough penetration in your shot to effective.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

His entire body is physically moving away from the ball on contact.

Perhaps you don't understand the step-around he has done to take the FH from the BH side? But when he contacts the ball, his hips have his body moving into the ball.

And I don't want to cause a fuss or continue this thread hijack, the thread is good and this is not the subject of the thread. The thread subject is adapting the stroke for someone who has compromised movement issues.

But if you want to figure out how you might come off in a way you didn't intend, retread your leaning back during backhand thread and see if you can figure out what got Shuki frustrated. He is a pretty calm polite guy normally. I've never seen him get annoyed like that.

You are a pretty smart kid. And you understand a lot. So reread that thread and see if you can figure it out.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NextLevel]

Perhaps you don't understand the step-around he has done to take the FH from the BH side? But when he contacts the ball, his hips have his body moving into the ball.

And I don't want to cause a fuss or continue this thread hijack, the thread is good and this is not the subject of the thread. The thread subject is adapting the stroke for someone who has compromised movement issues.

But if you want to figure out how you might come off in a way you didn't intend, retread your leaning back during backhand thread and see if you can figure out what got Shuki frustrated. He is a pretty calm polite guy normally. I've never seen him get annoyed like that.

You are a pretty smart kid. And you understand a lot. So reread that thread and see if you can figure it out.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I was going to write something detailed but Carl has made all the main points about Archosaurus's personality and posts. I don't see anything wrong with what Nikoli is doing and if I did, I would at least see that the player I am talking to possibly plays at likely a higher level than I do and I would not be in a rush to comment without couching my criticism as politely as possible. And if Archosaurus feels competent enough to criticize Nikoli without being cautious, then he had better demonstrate it with some video after claiming to be self-taught and not to have played seriously for long.

On the topic of looping without the knees etc, here is one of my loops. I've tried other variants to reduce the impact on the shoulder as well. I wish I had figured out those earlier as autoimmune arthritis hits you in all the worst places. I use my wrist a little differently these days and my shoulder joint much less - now more elbow and wrist and sometimes zero core rotation, though I always try to get a little to reduce the stress on the shoulder.

 

[Nikoli]

His entire body is physically moving away from the ball on contact. Brian is demonstrating the opposite, and moving the legs forward and not in a circular fashion either: the load transfer movement is done through the knees. It's not about if your feet leave the ground, it's about how much energy is transferred in what direction.

I never said anything bad about Nikoli's shot, I'd just hate to see an otherwise solid shot be ruined by this habit. It has a profound effect on the shot, and I don't understand why you haven't noticed as well.



I assume Nikoli has a good understanding of the shot due to him demonstrating it via text, but this foot movement is probably a habit he has not noticed. That is why I took it up. I'd want anyone to do the same to me, lest I waste weeks/months/years, grooving a bad habit in.


Also, I'd really want an example of what things I say that makes it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. It's not a challenge: I really want to know what you think is nonsense in what I'm saying.

Thanks for the constructive criticism dear friend!

When i post this video, i was hoping to see how people analyse the details of my shots so i can draw some good insight out of it. Anyway, my dear friend, it took me almost 4 years to achieve that so little "thing" in the video clip i just posted!

For me, the best way to learn is to constantly video tape myself, watch over and over, and fix little by little each time i practice. In the video clip, there are a few points that i'm quite satisfied with:

1- I was completely relax with the shot. if you take a closer look at the left arm, and see how relax it is. This is a true indicator of body relaxation. I just watched the video of Nextlevel above, and noticed that his left arm is somewhat tensed. This is a sign that his muscle are tightened up before his swings. It happened more clearly when he tried to swing faster! For Nextlevel to fix this problem, he needs to raise his rib case up, tighten his abs a bit. That shall do the job! My 2 cents

2- I got the small steps! You can notice this between the transition to FH from backhand corner. It took years to get this habit in place my dear friend!

3- Effortless swing. My swing wind back has a clear stop point, with the paddle along side of my right thigh, tip pointing downward indicating my wrist has cocked forward, ready for the swing. Notice my left and right shoulder during this period, they are almost equal of height. This is a clear indication that i still remain in balance for the stroke. I see some people just tilt their shoulder to the right too much, they ended up pushing upwards & forward with their leg. That is the footwork for 1 wing looper, which is not my style! Next, I contacted the ball on the front side of body, with a finish point of bat in front of my forehead with the wrist cocked backward at finish point, this is a clear indication of me achieving my whip lash effect from my wrist (2nd pendulum).

4- You wonder why my footwork looks odd, and seemed like i moved away from the ball? Well, that is because you prolly have a loop of a 1 winged looper, where you always have your left foot end up being set in front when you do body rotation. There is nothing wrong with this at all. It just costs you much more power and energy for recovery of the next shot.

In my case, i finish the shot with my right foot jumping forward. This is a clear indication of me using my right foot to push for body rotation. I do not push upward for my forehand shots, simply because it's tiring, and not energy efficient. After the finish stroke, notice both of my shoulders, they're still in balance. This means my spine, center of gravity, plane of gravity are still in place. And this is what helps me a lot with recovery time.

What can be done better in the shot demonstrated?
- Step a little further away from the ball, give the body and ball a little more space to exert more power.
- Relax that right arm a bit more, tighten the muscle more at contact point, and completely release it after that.
- Control the wrist a bit more, it seems too loose.

My swing and footwork are not the best for an amateur, but you know, whatever makes me happy and satisfied right?

Mind you shed some lights on us showing your footwork for this type of shot dear friend?

cheers,

 

[Nikoli]

1:08. I hope it looks somewhat similar.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Nikoli, one tip.

Look what your legs are doing on contact: you're jumping AWAY from the ball! Keep your legs on the ground for a better shot. Advanced players sometimes jump into the ball as well, on kills.

thats the first thing i noticed also. great advice there

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

- Step a little further away from the ball, give the body and ball a little more space to exert more power.

Your self analysis is right on target. You mentioned what seems to be the biggest issue. But, since you know it, that means you effectively use video analysis of your play to help you improve. Good deal.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NextLevel]

thats the first thing i noticed also. great advice there

It's advice that doesn't understand the purpose of the footwork. If you are a two winged looper, you tend to be more neutral to the table to play forehand and backhand. The movement Nikoli is doing is seen more often after a cross step but you can also use it over shorter distances to establish yourself square to the table - he is actually using it to throw more weight behind the ball. Here is another example of same from he who has no footwork (me). I don't land as square as Nikoli but you can see that my rotation is in the same direction and it all depends on how you want to end up anyway.

 

[Archosaurus]

Nikoli, there is not much wrong with your stroke.

The only thing I can see wrong is that you're moving your ENTIRE body away from the ball. It is okay if your left leg moves back in relation to your right that moves forward, like in the Zhang Jike video. That's not what I mean, because that's correct: modern play is more squared and thus you can't effectively recover to a "1 wing looper" position like you called it.

The point is not to never remove your feet from the ground as that is pretty much impossible if you're moving as well: but to not jump up or behind. At least in a basic shot like this. Pros do all kinds of strange movements that have a purpose, but it's not the kind of shot being made here.

Good work on the small steps footwork. It's pretty easy to learn if you force yourself to pay attention, but your execution is very good. I think you have better small steps than most amateurs I've seen.

 

[NextLevel]

1- I was completely relax with the shot. if you take a closer look at the left arm, and see how relax it is. This is a true indicator of body relaxation. I just watched the video of Nextlevel above, and noticed that his left arm is somewhat tensed. This is a sign that his muscle are tightened up before his swings. It happened more clearly when he tried to swing faster! For Nextlevel to fix this problem, he needs to raise his rib case up, tighten his abs a bit. That shall do the job! My 2 cents

I honestly wish I knew what you meant. It might actually help me improve my shot. When I loop in practice without moving, I use a running man motion to avoid engaging only the arm as much as possible. MY technique today is probably slightly different but I use the same principle. But maybe I could even be more relaxed. Will see what tightening the rib cage does.

 

[TTFrenzy]

It's advice that doesn't understand the purpose of the footwork. If you are a two winged looper, you tend to be more neutral to the table to play forehand and backhand. The movement Nikoli is doing is seen more often after a cross step but you can also use it over shorter distances to establish yourself square to the table - he is actually using it to throw more weight behind the ball. Here is another example of same from he who has no footwork (me). I don't land as square as Nikoli but you can see that my rotation is in the same direction and it all depends on how you want to end up anyway.

Well you are executing a different stroke there which requires different footwork. I think this advice is solid because

1. he loses momentum during the stroke cause his feet are not on the ground

2. he gets immediately too close to the table after the stroke, which requires a step back afterward to regain balance and ready position

Now Im not the kind of guy who thinks that there is correct and wrong technique, it all depends of what you are doing to win the point. Many players including us are sometimes doing wrong strokes in order to perform a kill shot or end the point immediately

So for my POV if nikoli wants to practice his kills shot's thats fine but still he loses power. But if he practices FH loop technique then he will never manage to execute 6-7 perfect FH loops with relaxation,recovery and optimum explosiveness.

So by the technique POV only I think what he is doing is not good for him. Dont get overexcited guys its only a short video, if really want to judge someone we will have to see a full video of him during a full practice and match but of course we are all bored to do so

What im saying is, I can show you for example a small training video of mine in which i land fast topspins off the bounce 7-8 of them and everyone will think that my technique is very good but its not.

If i show you the full 12 minute video you will see that im not so good and make many mistakes. My "philosophy" about TT forums is that you can only exchange and provide limited amounts of knowledge regarding TT because there is nothing better than a coach besides you showing you how to do it. Cheers

 

[TTFrenzy]

Oh and another thing, his feet are moving a little after the contact is made which is even worse, so the whole footwork thingy is out of rhythm and coordination with the ball. All in all his stroke explosiveness is coming only by his wrist forearm and waist, the feet and hips are almost useless

 

[Shuki]

But if you want to figure out how you might come off in a way you didn't intend, retread your leaning back during backhand thread and see if you can figure out what got Shuki frustrated. He is a pretty calm polite guy normally. I've never seen him get annoyed like that.

I feel really bad about that, I have ADD, and when I come down off my medicine occasionally I get a bit grumpy. My grumpiness came out at that time and I really am sorry about that.

Regardless, there is no excuse for me to get frustrated with you Archosaurus. Even if you're ignoring peoples advice, that's your choice, not mine to judge. I am sorry for being hostile toward you.

 

[Nikoli]

I honestly wish I knew what you meant. It might actually help me improve my shot. When I loop in practice without moving, I use a running man motion to avoid engaging only the arm as much as possible. MY technique today is probably slightly different but I use the same principle. But maybe I could even be more relaxed. Will see what tightening the rib cage does.

My swings before were way worse than yours, and i often exhausted myself squeezing all my muscles when swinging. It still happens to me today when i try to go for faster loops and i'm still working on it everyday. During match play, this happens more often because i'm not concious about it. But when i make errors, i always refer back to the feeling of my left arm. If its tensed, then i know i'm squeezing my body too much. I love to see women play, because their left arms are always naturally relaxed. By learning to relax the left arm, focus on the right arm, we're actually learning to control separate muscle groups, which i believe is very important for releasing your ultimate swing potentials

When you loop in practice without moving (which i do too), there must be a slight turn of hips, not over exaggerating, but just a little bit, enough for your to feel the actual power of your shots coming from the waist. I call this hips feeling practice. In your case, i think it's even easier to do so, 'cause you already have a erected spine ( you don't tilt).

You might ask, how relaxed can i get? i rather not tell you up straight but give you an metaphor regarding this matter. Imagine you have to shoulder-carry a sober vs. a drunk person, which one would be easier to carry? you get my point? Yes, that's how much of relaxation you want to get. How to achieve this? There is nothing better than self-experimentation. Bad advise from my end but, try a sip of whiskey before practice sometimes, and notice the difference it makes.

Cheers friends,

 

[Nikoli]

Well you are executing a different stroke there which requires different footwork. I think this advice is solid because

1. he loses momentum during the stroke cause his feet are not on the ground

2. he gets immediately too close to the table after the stroke, which requires a step back afterward to regain balance and ready position

Now Im not the kind of guy who thinks that there is correct and wrong technique, it all depends of what you are doing to win the point. Many players including us are sometimes doing wrong strokes in order to perform a kill shot or end the point immediately

So for my POV if nikoli wants to practice his kills shot's thats fine but still he loses power. But if he practices FH loop technique then he will never manage to execute 6-7 perfect FH loops with relaxation,recovery and optimum explosiveness.

So by the technique POV only I think what he is doing is not good for him. Dont get overexcited guys its only a short video, if really want to judge someone we will have to see a full video of him during a full practice and match but of course we are all bored to do so

What im saying is, I can show you for example a small training video of mine in which i land fast topspins off the bounce 7-8 of them and everyone will think that my technique is very good but its not.

If i show you the full 12 minute video you will see that im not so good and make many mistakes. My "philosophy" about TT forums is that you can only exchange and provide limited amounts of knowledge regarding TT because there is nothing better than a coach besides you showing you how to do it. Cheers

It's okay my friend. It's okay!

 

[TTFrenzy]

It's okay my friend. It's okay!

off course it is who said it isnt. your technique is just fine and very relaxed as it should. once you have steady feet during contact and weight transfer u will notice much better results, im glad to help

 

[Archosaurus]

Nikoli has some of the best understanding of table tennis that I've seen around here and can demonstrate it, so it's not that we're bashing him. He clearly has actual personal experience in whatever he comments in, and is of a higher level than most people here seem to be, so you can't really hate him if he makes one mistake.

Shuki, it's fine. I don't understand why you feel the need to even apologize.