Upgrade advice

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Hello all,

I usually just lurk but made an account to ask for some equipment help. I've been using my current setup (Yinhe E-3 + Palio AK47 Red FH / Black BH) for the majority of this year and it's now wearing out. I have no problems in controlling it and I was looking to try something new to better suit my playstyle - offensive, midrange looper (stronger on my BH but improving FH), currently working on my close table play. Sadly, I do not have any footage of me playing - but please note I'm not asking for a specific setup that would be perfect for me, just suggestions for things to look at / pointers in the right direction :)

I've been looking at getting a Viscaria for my next blade, as I enjoy a harder touch and speed. Would putting on sheets of tenergy be bad for my progress? I know its hard with no footage but just curious to know of alternatives etc!

Thank you
 
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Viscaria+T05 is a solid and popular combo. My opinion is that nothing is too fast to control. Even if you are not at the level to fully benefit from everything the setup has to offer, there is no harm in familiarizing yourself with it. Might even be a good idea; get a proven combo and practice, forget about trying anything else.
 
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BTW, a year is a long time for any rubber, you should be replacing at least every 6 months. So keep that in mind if money is a concern.
 
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Viscaria+T05 is a solid and popular combo. My opinion is that nothing is too fast to control. Even if you are not at the level to fully benefit from everything the setup has to offer, there is no harm in familiarizing yourself with it. Might even be a good idea; get a proven combo and practice, forget about trying anything else.

I see, I see! thank you, trying not to get too caught up in equipment and instead focus on technique

BTW, a year is a long time for any rubber, you should be replacing at least every 6 months. So keep that in mind if money is a concern.

you're right! I'm just lazy and cheap haha, will definitely keep in mind since tenergy is not cheap!

I had this setup myself. E3 + all combinations of AK47.
In my humble opinion, E3 is great and upgrading only the rubbers to any tensor like would be already a great step up.

Have you tried Viscaria or anything similar? Any reasons to go this route?

I've tried a bunch of other players blades and I liked the feel of ALC blades, so was wanting to move towards one - Viscaria seemed like the simplest choice (i could be very wrong?) and costs less for me. Was also wanting to get another setup regardless, so I can lend to a friend if we play etc :) I do agree though, E3 +AK47 is so good for how much it costs. I will have a look into upgrading the rubbers too!
 
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Well, I'm quite new to the game myself, focusing on technique also. And because I'm focusing on technique, the last thing I want now is a faster/carbon blade.

I tried good 7 ply blades, tried some BTY ALC ones and lots of other stuff. The only non 5 ply blade that I felt like "wow, this is gooood" was the Timo Boll Spirit (which should be quite similar to Viscaria actually). But still, trying is not really using one. During test, I can handle anything, but the problem lies on those trusty hard shots during match play.

Anyways, I'm just giving my opinion because I know very well the setup you are playing with and I, personally, wouldn't go straight to carbon from there. Buuuut everyone is different, the important thing is to have fun with what you like :)
 
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Well, I'm quite new to the game myself, focusing on technique also. And because I'm focusing on technique, the last thing I want now is a faster/carbon blade.

I tried good 7 ply blades, tried some BTY ALC ones and lots of other stuff. The only non 5 ply blade that I felt like "wow, this is gooood" was the Timo Boll Spirit (which should be quite similar to Viscaria actually). But still, trying is not really using one. During test, I can handle anything, but the problem lies on those trusty hard shots during match play.

Anyways, I'm just giving my opinion because I know very well the setup you are playing with and I, personally, wouldn't go straight to carbon from there. Buuuut everyone is different, the important thing is to have fun with what you like :)

you're definitely right about testing blades, hard to tell whether it truly suits. maybe I will have a look at korbel and some other all wood blades before making the jump to carbon, you make some good points! especially since you have experience with my setup
 
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The way I look at is building your technique from the ground up. Starting with a slow blade and growing from their. Professionals play with ALC blades like Viscaria, and I damn sure ain’t no professional lol. I’m definitely not good enough to spend $150+ on a blade alone. So if I really wanted to play with one I’d get a cheap carbon blade from DHS or a clone from Yinhe, etc. Just my 2 cents.
 
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I don't know any of the equipment that you just mentioned but I just checked the speed rating and composition of your blade which, if I'm not mistaken, is an ALL+ with 1&5 limba, 2&4 spruce and an ayous core and It does look like an All + to me. If you play/practice a few session each week, it is more than justified to upgrade. But if I were you I would not go for an OFF blade but probably an OFF- one instead. Btw. I would say viscaria is at least a mid OFF. From high/mid All+ to mid OFF feels iffy to me. It never hurts to play a slow blade but if a blade is too fast for you, it is bad, though I do understand the temptation a fast blade, which if you have tested from your friends to make sure you like it. Then it is fine.
The fact that you don't change your rubbers in 1 year and uses Yinhe, which is not known for it's premium product, tells me that price may be your concern. Viscaria is not cheap but there are lots of viscaria clones out there. I'm just saying it could be an alternative but don't blame me if they turn out to be a lot worse than viscaria so please do your own research as well:).

Some examples of viscaria clone:
Tmount T540
Yinhe Venus V-14 PRO
Donic Ovtcharov ture carbon
 
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Not sure about Rozena on the forehand though. Rozana is 35deg which translate to ~43deg for ESN hardness.
He uses AK47 red(45~47deg) and AK47 yellow (42~44deg). So plausible for backhand but it could be too soft for his forehand long strokes. Plus, he said he wants "harder touch and speed", which may not be exactly what he wants with the butterfly's spring sponge technology which is used in the Tenergy series and Rozena. It depends whether he wants the spring sponge catapult effect for his backhand, I guess.

Personally, I haven't used butterfly rubbers before because I'm skeptical of the spring sponge which may get too springy for me. I won't be using hard Chinese rubbers on my backhand any time soon but I reckon prefer something in between.
 
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I guess it depends on what your ambition is. If your aim is to play with T05 then Rozena is great as an introduction. Same sponge so you can transition between the two really easily. I love it on the FH and it’s a rubber that is the usual go to rubber (in Butterfly sponsored clubs) for 10-12 year olds which translates pretty well to an amateur which has been playing TT (with some coaching) for a year.

If you’re Chinese then the answer is always a tacky rubber like H3 but most people in the Western Hemisphere doesn’t have access to coaches that can teache the right strokes for those types of rubber.
 
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Not sure about Rozena on the forehand though. Rozana is 35deg which translate to ~43deg for ESN hardness.
He uses AK47 red(45~47deg) and AK47 yellow (42~44deg). So plausible for backhand but it could be too soft for his forehand long strokes. Plus, he said he wants "harder touch and speed", which may not be exactly what he wants with the butterfly's spring sponge technology which is used in the Tenergy series and Rozena. It depends whether he wants the spring sponge catapult effect for his backhand, I guess.

Personally, I haven't used butterfly rubbers before because I'm skeptical of the spring sponge which may get too springy for me. I won't be using hard Chinese rubbers on my backhand any time soon but I reckon prefer something in between.

I wouldn't get too attached to the hardness on the packages.
First, for the AKs, Palio themselves put it in a range, meaning it can vary, and it really can. I had softer and harder sheets of AK47 yellow. One of them was softer than a Blue sheet actually. So, links could have a softer one. We don't know.
Second, the topsheet plays a good part on the hardness feeling. A Donic Acuda P2 and a Donic Bluefire M2 will have the the same sponge hardness of 45 degree, I believe. But the P2 will feel a lot softer. In fact, Acuda P2 will feel softer than a Bluefire M3, which have a softer sponge.

Apart from that, I went from AK47 to Acuda P2 both sides, really soft rubbers, and it was the best thing for my development.

In terms of speed, both Korbel and Rozena will give him the step up he wants. I would easily play with that combo myself if I didn't like Donic rubbers so much.

Anyways, links will get so much more spin with any of those rubbers that he will never look back :D
 
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There is no AK 47 Black, did you mean Blue? AK is plenty fast, any other rubber will only give you a marginal speed increase, which you probably don't need to start with. Like it has been said many times, no one really loses matches because their rubbers are not fast enough.

If you are using Blue on the BH you can try Yellow or Red instead both of which are faster.

Julian
 
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Usually a nice upgrade path is to go from an Allround blade then to an all wood offensive blade, then to a carbon inner blade (with decent control), then finally (Maybe) a fast/stiff carbon outer blade.

So, a decent and non-expensive incremental upgrade would be something like the Stiga Azalea Offensive or Xiom Offensive S.

After that would be a carbon inner blade with decent control. I'm a huge fan of carbon inner blades. (And yes, I realize that carbon inner location doesn't guarantee better control, it's just sort of a generalization.). Good examples are the Butterfly Innerforce/Harimoto blades, Donic Ovtcharov No 1 Senso, Xiom Icecream AZXi, etc... If Ma Long and Dimitri Ovtchatov downgraded from Viscarias to carbon inner blades because they needed more control, then... why the heck are so many intermediate players using Viscarias???

As far as rubber upgrades, a mid range tensor rubber might work well. (Something with good speed but still forgiving). Xiom Vega Pro and Andro Hexer Grip/Powergrip are good examples. (Nice Hexer review from TTD on YouTube).

Personally I tried AK-47 blue on backhand and was disappointed with the amount of spin that it produces. I like Palio CJ8000 Biotech better because I get a lot more spin from it even though its slower.
 
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I am going to cut through some info. There have been a few good pieces of info here. And some that may be good in one context and not as good in another context.

The setup you want may be good for your BH, based on some of what you said. But probably would not be a great choice for your FH.

If your FH needs work, then a like a Viscaria-- which would be fine for someone who is very high level, but not so good for someone who needs to work on improving a stroke in the way it sounds like you described--would probably not be such a good choice.

Theoretically, the people who said you could change your rubbers first and not change your blade yet, they were on to something. Often it is better to change one thing at a time when you are choosing to use equipment that is faster and harder to control.

Also, the people who said going from a blade that is All+ to one that is on the fast side of Off (some call a Viscaria Off+) would also not be so advisable were onto something.

But rather than tell you what to get and what not to get, I am going to explain why a blade with carbon, a hard top ply and A LOT FASTER than your old blade, is not the best choice in changing equipment.

So, when a player is working on or developing a stroke (like the FH), and is a mid level amateur club player, a faster blade will cause that player to cut down their stroke to land the ball on the table. And that makes it sooooooooooo much harder to improve your stroke.

A medium speed blade (All+ to Off-) makes you actually have to be more precise with your timing and more precise with your contact and also makes you need to take a fuller stroke. All of this makes it so your stroke improves faster because the blade is not doing as much of the work for you.

Next piece of info: a carbon blade like a Viscaria makes it so most contact feels the same. So, if your contact is good, it feels good. But.....and this is important.....if your contact is lousy, a blade like a Viscaria will hide that and it will still feel good. With that bad contact, you will also still often make a decent shot. (The downside of a large "sweet spot") is you don't realize when what you have done is not good.

In contrast, an all wood, 5 ply blade with decent flex that helps you feel the contact of the ball, when your contact is good, it will tell you the contact was good because it will feel really nice. When your contact is bad, the blade will tell you the contact was bad and the shot will be weaker as a result. And the thing about this is, when you are constantly getting that kind of feedback, your contact, your timing and your ability to pop force into your contact get better sooooooo much faster because you feel it when it isn't right. And you feel it when it is right. And this happens without you even realizing that your brain and nervous system are adjusting to improve your contact and timing.

Add to that, the speed of the blade does not help you so much so that, when your timing is perfect, you start seeing how, you can really rip the ball if everything is right, and that gets you to learn how to get all those things--pop from hips, legs pressing feet into the ground, snap of elbow, whip of wrist--to sync up and get timed together. And therefore, your technique actually improves exponentially faster. Again, this happens without you thinking about it or realizing it is happening because of the choice of blades.

Now this is a dual edged sword here. If you don't care about getting better and improving your technique, then it doesn't matter and you could get the Viscaria like so many low and mid level players do. If the issue is that you want a blade you are in love with, and you are okay with it doing the work without you getting better, then a Viscaria with T05 is super fun to play with. And there are plenty of people in that category.

However, if you want to actually improve and get better and you are thinking long term, about maximizing the top level you cap out at, then you probably want a moderate speed, 5 ply, all wood, flexible blade that helps you feel the contact of the ball better. And it sounds like you may already have one that is excellent for that.

The interesting thing about all this is, when you take that slower blade and work with it for several years and get your technique so all those issues of syncing timing of all those different body parts to pop into the ball right on contact, then, your shots with the slow blade will be faster than the shots of your friends who were using a Viscaria all that time and getting speed simply from the fact that the blade does the work.

Then when you have that and you start to use the Viscaria, then your shots are 2-3x faster with the Viscaria and with more spin than those guys who were using the Viscaria the whole time, because, while they were improving, the subtle aspects of your mechanics were improving so much faster than theirs were.

Now, a story. I have a friend who is a pro tennis player. He also plays table tennis and is a decently high level amateur in table tennis. Last time I saw him was several years ago. He uses a Stiga Allround Classic with Mark V rubbers. I know, slow slow slow. Well, if table tennis was only about how hard you can hit/spin the ball, this guy would be one of the best in the world. His power is amazing. He can hit harder than many top pros with that slow setup. His mechanics are that good in large part because of how good he is at tennis even though they are different racket sports and he does not play TT like a tennis player.

If he could deal with the levels of spin that top players are used to handling, he would be in the top 300. If it was only loops and power of loops, he would be in the top 50 in the world as we speak. All with a slow blade and entirely because of how good his mechanics are.

But once your technique is solid and you are at an elite amateur level: top 100-150 in UK, then a Viscaria is an excellent choice and will no longer slow your improvement but actually aid your development. :)

Another note: Ma Long was in the top 5 in the world and still using a 5 ply all wood Off- blade in 2009. Look for footage of how fast his shots were when he used a Nitakku Acoustic. His shots are not as fast now. That is because he gets more spin. But the speed of his shots back then were that fast with a moderate speed blade not because of the blade but because of how good he was; how good his technique was. Ma Long upgrading to faster blades did not make his shots faster. He used the faster blades to add more spin and allow for more effortless play.
 
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After that would be a carbon inner blade with decent control. I'm a huge fan of carbon inner blades. (And yes, I realize that carbon inner location doesn't guarantee better control, it's just sort of a generalization.). Good examples are the Butterfly Innerforce/Harimoto blades, Donic Ovtcharov No 1 Senso, Xiom Icecream AZXi, etc...

You said that you are a huge fan of inner carbon, but nobilis is not an inner carbon. Does it mean that you are a even bigger fan of outer carbon XD. Or do you use two rackets? one with inner carbon for fun and another with outer carbon when you mean business?
 
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I am going to cut through some info. There have been a few good pieces of info here. And some that may be good in one context and not as good in another context.

The setup you want may be good for your BH, based on some of what you said. But probably would not be a great choice for your FH.

If your FH needs work, then a like a Viscaria-- which would be fine for someone who is very high level, but not so good for someone who needs to work on improving a stroke in the way it sounds like you described--would probably not be such a good choice.

Theoretically, the people who said you could change your rubbers first and not change your blade yet, they were on to something. Often it is better to change one thing at a time when you are choosing to use equipment that is faster and harder to control.

Also, the people who said going from a blade that is All+ to one that is on the fast side of Off (some call a Viscaria Off+) would also not be so advisable were onto something.

But rather than tell you what to get and what not to get, I am going to explain why a blade with carbon, a hard top ply and A LOT FASTER than your old blade, is not the best choice in changing equipment.

So, when a player is working on or developing a stroke (like the FH), and is a mid level amateur club player, a faster blade will cause that player to cut down their stroke to land the ball on the table. And that makes it sooooooooooo much harder to improve your stroke.

A medium speed blade (All+ to Off-) makes you actually have to be more precise with your timing and more precise with your contact and also makes you need to take a fuller stroke. All of this makes it so your stroke improves faster because the blade is not doing as much of the work for you.

Next piece of info: a carbon blade like a Viscaria makes it so most contact feels the same. So, if your contact is good, it feels good. But.....and this is important.....if your contact is lousy, a blade like a Viscaria will hide that and it will still feel good. With that bad contact, you will also still often make a decent shot. (The downside of a large "sweet spot") is you don't realize when what you have done is not good.

In contrast, an all wood, 5 ply blade with decent flex that helps you feel the contact of the ball, when your contact is good, it will tell you the contact was good because it will feel really nice. When your contact is bad, the blade will tell you the contact was bad and the shot will be weaker as a result. And the thing about this is, when you are constantly getting that kind of feedback, your contact, your timing and your ability to pop force into your contact get better sooooooo much faster because you feel it when it isn't right. And you feel it when it is right. And this happens without you even realizing that your brain and nervous system are adjusting to improve your contact and timing.

Add to that, the speed of the blade does not help you so much so that, when your timing is perfect, you start seeing how, you can really rip the ball if everything is right, and that gets you to learn how to get all those things--pop from hips, legs pressing feet into the ground, snap of elbow, whip of wrist--to sync up and get timed together. And therefore, your technique actually improves exponentially faster. Again, this happens without you thinking about it or realizing it is happening because of the choice of blades.

Now this is a dual edged sword here. If you don't care about getting better and improving your technique, then it doesn't matter and you could get the Viscaria like so many low and mid level players do. If the issue is that you want a blade you are in love with, and you are okay with it doing the work without you getting better, then a Viscaria with T05 is super fun to play with. And there are plenty of people in that category.

However, if you want to actually improve and get better and you are thinking long term, about maximizing the top level you cap out at, then you probably want a moderate speed, 5 ply, all wood, flexible blade that helps you feel the contact of the ball better. And it sounds like you may already have one that is excellent for that.

The interesting thing about all this is, when you take that slower blade and work with it for several years and get your technique so all those issues of syncing timing of all those different body parts to pop into the ball right on contact, then, your shots with the slow blade will be faster than the shots of your friends who were using a Viscaria all that time and getting speed simply from the fact that the blade does the work.

Then when you have that and you start to use the Viscaria, then your shots are 2-3x faster with the Viscaria and with more spin than those guys who were using the Viscaria the whole time, because, while they were improving, the subtle aspects of your mechanics were improving so much faster than theirs were.

Now, a story. I have a friend who is a pro tennis player. He also plays table tennis and is a decently high level amateur in table tennis. Last time I saw him was several years ago. He uses a Stiga Allround Classic with Mark V rubbers. I know, slow slow slow. Well, if table tennis was only about how hard you can hit/spin the ball, this guy would be one of the best in the world. His power is amazing. He can hit harder than many top pros with that slow setup. His mechanics are that good in large part because of how good he is at tennis even though they are different racket sports and he does not play TT like a tennis player.

If he could deal with the levels of spin that top players are used to handling, he would be in the top 300. If it was only loops and power of loops, he would be in the top 50 in the world as we speak. All with a slow blade and entirely because of how good his mechanics are.

But once your technique is solid and you are at an elite amateur level: top 100-150 in UK, then a Viscaria is an excellent choice and will no longer slow your improvement but actually aid your development. :)

Another note: Ma Long was in the top 5 in the world and still using a 5 ply all wood Off- blade in 2009. Look for footage of how fast his shots were when he used a Nitakku Acoustic. His shots are not as fast now. That is because he gets more spin. But the speed of his shots back then were that fast with a moderate speed blade not because of the blade but because of how good he was; how good his technique was. Ma Long upgrading to faster blades did not make his shots faster. He used the faster blades to add more spin and allow for more effortless play.
This answer is really good
 
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