Video Footage Safe Thread

[NextLevel]

hey! i have been working on my pendulum serve for a few months now, any feedback?
goal is to get a short, low, spinny serve.. but my serves often go half long or long
Thanks

The easiest way to keep a serve short is high spin level with side backspin (to give longer trajectory across the table), or low spin level with delicate touch, though both can drift long with enthusiasm under pressure.

Because we can't see your whole serve trajectory, it is unclear whether it is going long because you don't have enough spin or because you are putting too much energy into the ball overall. That said, looking at your contact, I think you are hitting the ball too hard to serve short and need to put more spin into the ball.

To keep a serve obviously short, you need to land the first bounce within 6 to 9 inches of the net *on the opponent's side* if the serve is relatively fast ( a good short serve will always be slower than a good long serve). Sometimes, keeping the ball short might require you to serve relatively close to the net on your side, but this will make the serve relatively high and slow because it will need to bounce upwards close to the net to go over the net. So faster short serves need their first bounce a bit further from the net, but with the aim of getting the first bounce relatively early on the opponent's side. Backspin tends to slow down in the forward direction while topspin tends to kick forward, so backspin is usually easier to keep short. But one can serve short topspin as well, especially if you use some sidespin to make the trajectory longer.

Serving requires very good use of the fingers. IT also requires you to practice finding contact points on the ball that you wouldn't be able to hit in rallies. Looking at the video, you are hitting the back of the ball way too much. For pendulum, you want to slice the left side of the ball way more so that ball curves into the table.

You may want to practice serving a lot on the floor before trying to serve with spin at the table.

This guy taught me a lot about how to serve, he isn't Ma Long, but it worked for me and helped me a lot, especially the use of the fingers. Your toss and most of your stuff looks fine, it is just the use of the fingers to get spin and the quality of the contact that I am focused on.

 

[Mikey_TT]

The easiest way to keep a serve short is high spin level with side backspin (to give longer trajectory across the table), or low spin level with delicate touch, though both can drift long with enthusiasm under pressure.

Because we can't see your whole serve trajectory, it is unclear whether it is going long because you don't have enough spin or because you are putting too much energy into the ball overall. That said, looking at your contact, I think you are hitting the ball too hard to serve short and need to put more spin into the ball.

To keep a serve obviously short, you need to land the first bounce within 6 to 9 inches of the net *on the opponent's side* if the serve is relatively fast ( a good short serve will always be slower than a good long serve). Sometimes, keeping the ball short might require you to serve relatively close to the net on your side, but this will make the serve relatively high and slow because it will need to bounce upwards close to the net to go over the net. So faster short serves need their first bounce a bit further from the net, but with the aim of getting the first bounce relatively early on the opponent's side. Backspin tends to slow down in the forward direction while topspin tends to kick forward, so backspin is usually easier to keep short. But one can serve short topspin as well, especially if you use some sidespin to make the trajectory longer.

Serving requires very good use of the fingers. IT also requires you to practice finding contact points on the ball that you wouldn't be able to hit in rallies. Looking at the video, you are hitting the back of the ball way too much. For pendulum, you want to slice the left side of the ball way more so that ball curves into the table.

You may want to practice serving a lot on the floor before trying to serve with spin at the table.

This guy taught me a lot about how to serve, he isn't Ma Long, but it worked for me and helped me a lot, especially the use of the fingers. Your toss and most of your stuff looks fine, it is just the use of the fingers to get spin and the quality of the contact that I am focused on.

hmm it does look like i hit he back of the ball..
do u think i should toss the ball higher?

 

[NextLevel]

hmm it does look like i hit he back of the ball..
do u think i should toss the ball higher?

Not necessarily, those things are for you to determine as long as they are within the rules. The main issue is that you aren't clearly spinning the ball. You need to spin the ball much more. And swing with a little less power.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hey Mikey,

I see you going full pro look tossing ball sideways and hiding it with body

You doing well in that department.

If you want an underspin serve to go short, you need to make your bat angle very flat at impact, like same as table top. Imagine you laid the bat on the table... that is your bat angle at impact. You could also bring tip of bat down or up, which gives sidespin too... that also lengthens path of ball a little and gives gravity more time to drop the ball short or half long, depending on what you trying to do.

Where players have problems keeping it short it is always the bat angle at impact. They my start at the right angle, but as they do their pendulum motion, they do not bring the bat back to zero degrees full flat... so the ball shoots out faster and longer than what they want.

Some players slow their bat down to make the ball go out slower, which gets the ball to be short sometimes, but terrible quality, high bounce, very predictable - a point finish chance for opponent.

Ttry to address this by standing in a hallway or a space off the table. Toss ball up and make sure to get under the ball with a flat bat angle... try to shoot the ball forward a couple meters... go for heavy spin and make the ball come back to you... since the floor is slippery, you will know if your spin was weak... they ball wouldn't come back much or if at all.

When you get good at that... do the same thing, but a meter or two from behind the table... serve underspin... arc the ball high, like a half meter... go for real heavy spin... make ball bounce once on your side and once on other side.

Once you get good at that, then try out your serve at the table. At first, do not go for the lowest serve... just practice getting the ball to be short with good spin, forget how low or high...

Once you get that good, you can now mess around with different strike points and first bounce landing points to discover what you can do to keep it lower and your placement.

With time it will get better.

Where adult learners go wrong is that they want to practice everything all at once at the table... there are way too many factors to address and trying to do all of them at the same time is a disaster and the player loses motivation and hope.

 

[Der_Echte]

hmm it does look like i hit he back of the ball..
do u think i should toss the ball higher?

Next Level has in years past given me the title of High Toss Servy Bastard, so of course I would tell people to toss the ball higher...

... but it isn't all about that. You need to discover a toss height that gives you enough time to prepare your stroke and be able to repeat it consistently correctly.

I toss higher, because I can time it and I can make some more spin than the average player. The high toss gives me a little more energy to work with and transfer to the ball in terms of spin. I can make a very slow looking arm speed into a fast bat at impact and get way more spin that it looks like I could make - it makes my serve wierd and effective.

high toss isn't an absolute need, I can also use a lower toss and get great spin, I just make sure I make the bat go real fast at impact moment with he right bat angle and grip.

Initially, you practice serving with a very loose grip... but later, when timing and control of bat angle is good, you can actually firm up at impact to deliver more energy to the ball which CAN be spin if your bat angle is good.

 

[Der_Echte]

You have to hit the very bottom of the ball or anywhere along the side... think of needing to hit 6 O'Clock to be on very bottom... but if you are going for some sidespin, you can also strike ball at 7, 8, or 9 O'Clock and still make the ball short and good spin.

It is a matter of base angle flat to table and lowering or raising tip of bat to whatever degree.

 

[Mikey_TT]

Hey Mikey,

I see you going full pro look tossing ball sideways and hiding it with body

You doing well in that department.

If you want an underspin serve to go short, you need to make your bat angle very flat at impact, like same as table top. Imagine you laid the bat on the table... that is your bat angle at impact. You could also bring tip of bat down or up, which gives sidespin too... that also lengthens path of ball a little and gives gravity more time to drop the ball short or half long, depending on what you trying to do.

Where players have problems keeping it short it is always the bat angle at impact. They my start at the right angle, but as they do their pendulum motion, they do not bring the bat back to zero degrees full flat... so the ball shoots out faster and longer than what they want.

Some players slow their bat down to make the ball go out slower, which gets the ball to be short sometimes, but terrible quality, high bounce, very predictable - a point finish chance for opponent.

Ttry to address this by standing in a hallway or a space off the table. Toss ball up and make sure to get under the ball with a flat bat angle... try to shoot the ball forward a couple meters... go for heavy spin and make the ball come back to you... since the floor is slippery, you will know if your spin was weak... they ball wouldn't come back much or if at all.

When you get good at that... do the same thing, but a meter or two from behind the table... serve underspin... arc the ball high, like a half meter... go for real heavy spin... make ball bounce once on your side and once on other side.

Once you get good at that, then try out your serve at the table. At first, do not go for the lowest serve... just practice getting the ball to be short with good spin, forget how low or high...

Once you get that good, you can now mess around with different strike points and first bounce landing points to discover what you can do to keep it lower and your placement.

With time it will get better.

Where adult learners go wrong is that they want to practice everything all at once at the table... there are way too many factors to address and trying to do all of them at the same time is a disaster and the player loses motivation and hope.

the camera angle makes it look like the serve is hidden.. i know the toss is not vertical since i am not using the wrist right
i can actually do the first 2 steps, bur as soon as i get close to the table to make it a bit lower it ends up getting less backspin

anyways thx next level and echte.. i will post my improvement in a few days or weeks

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

hey! i have been working on my pendulum serve for a few months now, any feedback?
goal is to get a short, low, spinny serve.. but my serves often go half long or long
Thanks

Any chance you can make footage where we can see your racket as it contacts the ball and the other side of the table to see the depth of the serve and whether it will bounce 2x on the other side of the net or not?

NextLevel and Der_Echte have been able to give you feedback in spite of this. But seeing the contact and the flight path of the ball through the serve would be beneficial if people are going to help you.

 

[Mikey_TT]

Any chance you can make footage where we can see your racket as it contacts the ball and the other side of the table to see the depth of the serve and whether it will bounce 2x on the other side of the net or not?

NextLevel and Der_Echte have been able to give you feedback in spite of this. But seeing the contact and the flight path of the ball through the serve would be beneficial if people are going to help you

Any chance you can make footage where we can see your racket as it contacts the ball and the other side of the table to see the depth of the serve and whether it will bounce 2x on the other side of the net or not?

NextLevel and Der_Echte have been able to give you feedback in spite of this. But seeing the contact and the flight path of the ball through the serve would be beneficial if people are going to help you.

i can do that, will take some time since i dont have a personal smartphone..

here is my bh topspin (learning the ma long bh) any thoughts?

 

[NextLevel]

i can do that, will take some time since i dont have a personal smartphone..

here is my bh topspin (learning the ma long bh) any thoughts?

You seem to be young and getting coached, at best I would learn to practice a bit more the small skills with the fingers which you can master if you work more on getting spin with your serves.

 

[Mikey_TT]

You seem to be young and getting coached, at best I would learn to practice a bit more the small skills with the fingers which you can master if you work more on getting spin with your serves.

yeah.. my game is mostly self taught, i did coaching for 3 months and then left (school and online classes😩) planning to join again next month

 

[NextLevel]

yeah.. my game is mostly self taught, i did coaching for 3 months and then left (school and online classes😩) planning to join again next month

If you want better input, you definitely need better camera angles as Carl pointed out - was just trying to help with fairly limited information.

 

[Mikey_TT]

If you want better input, you definitely need better camera angles as Carl pointed out - was just trying to help with fairly limited information.

yeah difficult since i dont have a tripod..

 

[NextLevel]

yeah difficult since i dont have a tripod..

No problem, just remember as a late learner, the simplest way to improve is to learn to add spin to the ball, it is much more important that hitting the ball with power, and when learned, an easier style to play even if not as effective as it used to be. Once you master spin timing, then you can do a lot of other things based on reducing and increase spin. But if you don't get to heavy spin, it will be hard to improve quickly without a ridiculous amount of training.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

yeah difficult since i dont have a tripod..

The phone in a shoe, with the camera lens up, and the shoe put onto something like a chair or counter, can be a very effective tripod if you are filming from someone's phone.

And when you film, you want to have the camera far back enough to see you and at least most of the table, if not all of the table. Certainly, if you are trying to film yourself, you, your arms, your head....those should be in the camera's lens at all times. So, if you footworked from BH to FH side, you should be on the screen the whole time.

Otherwise it is kind of hard to see what you are doing. So, definitely film from much further back. Much further back.

 

[Mikey_TT]

alright will try that out.
ty

 

[Mikey_TT]

The easiest way to keep a serve short is high spin level with side backspin (to give longer trajectory across the table), or low spin level with delicate touch, though both can drift long with enthusiasm under pressure.

Because we can't see your whole serve trajectory, it is unclear whether it is going long because you don't have enough spin or because you are putting too much energy into the ball overall. That said, looking at your contact, I think you are hitting the ball too hard to serve short and need to put more spin into the ball.

To keep a serve obviously short, you need to land the first bounce within 6 to 9 inches of the net *on the opponent's side* if the serve is relatively fast ( a good short serve will always be slower than a good long serve). Sometimes, keeping the ball short might require you to serve relatively close to the net on your side, but this will make the serve relatively high and slow because it will need to bounce upwards close to the net to go over the net. So faster short serves need their first bounce a bit further from the net, but with the aim of getting the first bounce relatively early on the opponent's side. Backspin tends to slow down in the forward direction while topspin tends to kick forward, so backspin is usually easier to keep short. But one can serve short topspin as well, especially if you use some sidespin to make the trajectory longer.

Serving requires very good use of the fingers. IT also requires you to practice finding contact points on the ball that you wouldn't be able to hit in rallies. Looking at the video, you are hitting the back of the ball way too much. For pendulum, you want to slice the left side of the ball way more so that ball curves into the table.

You may want to practice serving a lot on the floor before trying to serve with spin at the table.

This guy taught me a lot about how to serve, he isn't Ma Long, but it worked for me and helped me a lot, especially the use of the fingers. Your toss and most of your stuff looks fine, it is just the use of the fingers to get spin and the quality of the contact that I am focused on.

damn after the session yesterday i realised after hitting the ball on the left side, I was able to control it better.
The reason i used to hit on the back side was i thought ma long did it too but after watching slowmo i saw that it wasthe way he flicked his wrist that made it look like that..

ty

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

damn after the session yesterday i realised after hitting the ball on the left side, I was able to control it better.
The reason i used to hit on the back side was i thought ma long did it too but after watching slowmo i saw that it wasthe way he flicked his wrist that made it look like that..

ty

Copying pros can get you in trouble because, you may see things that they are not doing. And you have not spent the time they have training, or the time they have in their bodies. Each pro has strokes that look slightly different. Part of that has to do with the training they have been doing from since they were quite young. Part of it has to do with the fact that each human being has unique dimensions: arm to torso length ratio, torso to leg length ratio, arm to leg length ratio, arm to leg length ratio, hands, wrists, arm angles, etc, etc.

This is why you can watch Ma Long, Fan Zhendong, and any other pro and notice that they all do their strokes at least a little differently. The range of ways the topsheet and sponge meet and contact the ball may be similar. But the movement of arm and body usually vary from player to player.

Without the years of training and the specific body of the pro you are copying, copying a pro's technique could even cause you to injure yourself. Until you have a lot of training under your belt, probably, strokes that are more compact than most pros use would be more useful to most amateurs. A more compact stroke on a serve can really help you understand what you are doing to the ball better.

With the serve, you might not injure yourself. But your serve, from the video above, does not have much in common with the serves of Ma Long even if you think you are trying to copy what he does. Probably the most important thing for you to focus on with your serves for now is how you contact the ball with the topsheet. NextLevel has really, already covered all the important information.

If you watch the fluidity of Ma Long's serve, you can see he knows why he is doing what he is doing with his body, with his arms, with his legs. When someone tries to imitate, you can see if and when their body does or does not understand why they are trying to do what they are doing. When someone's body does not really understand the movement, the movement won't look as fluid. It probably would be better to understand what you are doing and why, then to copy something you don't yet fully understand.

One step at a time. First learn to spin the ball on the serve.

 

[Mikey_TT]

Copying pros can get you in trouble because, you may see things that they are not doing. And you have not spent the time they have training, or the time they have in their bodies. Each pro has strokes that look slightly different. Part of that has to do with the training they have been doing from since they were quite young. Part of it has to do with the fact that each human being has unique dimensions: arm to torso length ratio, torso to leg length ratio, arm to leg length ratio, arm to leg length ratio, hands, wrists, arm angles, etc, etc.

This is why you can watch Ma Long, Fan Zhendong, and any other pro and notice that they all do their strokes at least a little differently. The range of ways the topsheet and sponge meet and contact the ball may be similar. But the movement of arm and body usually vary from player to player.

Without the years of training and the specific body of the pro you are copying, copying a pro's technique could even cause you to injure yourself. Until you have a lot of training under your belt, probably, strokes that are more compact than most pros use would be more useful to most amateurs. A more compact stroke on a serve can really help you understand what you are doing to the ball better.

With the serve, you might not injure yourself. But your serve, from the video above, does not have much in common with the serves of Ma Long even if you think you are trying to copy what he does. Probably the most important thing for you to focus on with your serves for now is how you contact the ball with the topsheet. NextLevel has really, already covered all the important information.

If you watch the fluidity of Ma Long's serve, you can see he knows why he is doing what he is doing with his body, with his arms, with his legs. When someone tries to imitate, you can see if and when their body does or does not understand why they are trying to do what they are doing. When someone's body does not really understand the movement, the movement won't look as fluid. It probably would be better to understand what you are doing and why, then to copy something you don't yet fully understand.

One step at a time. First learn to spin the ball on the serve.

hmm, do you think i should switch to a short stroke serve like fan?

 

[Mikey_TT]

Hey Mikey,

I see you going full pro look tossing ball sideways and hiding it with body

You doing well in that department.

If you want an underspin serve to go short, you need to make your bat angle very flat at impact, like same as table top. Imagine you laid the bat on the table... that is your bat angle at impact. You could also bring tip of bat down or up, which gives sidespin too... that also lengthens path of ball a little and gives gravity more time to drop the ball short or half long, depending on what you trying to do.

Where players have problems keeping it short it is always the bat angle at impact. They my start at the right angle, but as they do their pendulum motion, they do not bring the bat back to zero degrees full flat... so the ball shoots out faster and longer than what they want.

Some players slow their bat down to make the ball go out slower, which gets the ball to be short sometimes, but terrible quality, high bounce, very predictable - a point finish chance for opponent.

Ttry to address this by standing in a hallway or a space off the table. Toss ball up and make sure to get under the ball with a flat bat angle... try to shoot the ball forward a couple meters... go for heavy spin and make the ball come back to you... since the floor is slippery, you will know if your spin was weak... they ball wouldn't come back much or if at all.

When you get good at that... do the same thing, but a meter or two from behind the table... serve underspin... arc the ball high, like a half meter... go for real heavy spin... make ball bounce once on your side and once on other side.

Once you get good at that, then try out your serve at the table. At first, do not go for the lowest serve... just practice getting the ball to be short with good spin, forget how low or high...

Once you get that good, you can now mess around with different strike points and first bounce landing points to discover what you can do to keep it lower and your placement.

With time it will get better.

Where adult learners go wrong is that they want to practice everything all at once at the table... there are way too many factors to address and trying to do all of them at the same time is a disaster and the player loses motivation

i can do a short,low backspin serve which comes back to the net now..
what do you think i should do now to develop my pendulums serve?