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View Full Version : Multi ball with Celluloid balls bad idea?



Ndragon
12-20-2017, 03:26 PM
I am just wondering if it's a bad idea to do multi ball training with Celluloid balls. Like what are the negatives?

I still have my training celluloid balls from before I stopped playing TT which I used for multi ball. I want to know if I need to really invest in the new plastic balls or if I can continue using without any negative effects on my progress.

Thanks

Tom
12-20-2017, 07:18 PM
Hi Ndragon,

I would personally say you should definitely invest in some new plastic balls for multi ball,the reason being the difference in the way the celluloid and plastic balls behave. Table tennis is a sport with fine margins and small differences and if you get very used to and train a lot of multi ball with the old balls you will be used to the way they spin and the contact needed to perform your strokes well, but when changing back to plastic balls this feeling, contact and bounce will be different. Some people will say that the difference is minimal but I personally disagree and it's important to be well tuned in to the exact equipment you will be playing with in matches. I'd compare training with celluloid balls to playing on a grass court in tennis and then playing matches on clay, yes you can adapt but it takes time, so why not train with the real thing. Hope that helps :)

ttmonster
12-20-2017, 08:07 PM
agree with tom , this was part of the reason I stopped training in the first places when I saw coaches penny pinching and not investing in plastic balls for multiballs ...atleast for me it does not make any sense to be using anything else for multiball

Ilia Minkin
12-20-2017, 08:57 PM
Yeah, celluloid bounces differently, especially when spun heavily, different bounce may drive you nuts when you go back to plastic.

Tony's Table Tennis
12-20-2017, 09:02 PM
imo if your level is low, it makes lesser of a difference

if your level is low, you focus is less on the ball but more on everything else

langel
12-20-2017, 09:36 PM
If you intend to train and play just for pleasure, use any ball you like.
If you intend to play with many different partners, and/or on tournaments, you have to consider the contemporary tendences.
If you are an old-school equipment player and you want to run contemporary, you have to change not balls only.

And if you eventually manage to contemporary change your mind, style and setup, all of the contemporary balls will seam to you so different than never before.

ajtatosmano2
12-20-2017, 10:29 PM
If you practice footwork and coordination/reaction drills it's ok. If you want to practice specific shots then it's just as bad as normal training with celluloid balls.
Demonstration:
when it's ok to use celluloid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjw6DKmLQXs

when it's bad to use celluloid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsbezFVXePs

Tinykin
12-20-2017, 10:39 PM
A picture paints a thousand words.
A video paints ten thousand words:cool:

UpSideDownCarl
12-20-2017, 11:13 PM
One thing I will say:

All the Poly balls are still really so different: Seamed, Seamless, DHS, Nittaku, Butterfly German, Double Fish.

If they are all so different than each other. It almost would not matter as much.

However, even though some of the P-balls are as different from each other as they are from the C-balls, they all have some things in common, they are larger and harder to spin and they are made of a material that is harder to grab than the C-balls.

And because of those issues of what the P-balls have in common that is different from all the C-balls, I would say: Train with P-balls.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

anchorschmidt
12-20-2017, 11:17 PM
I can relate to this. Unfortunately we're still using celluloid in most league matches. Nowadays I train with celluloid on Mondays, with Joola Plastic on Tuesdays , with celluloid on Wednesday and it depends on Thursday where I train.

Somehow I don't find the Nittaku premium ball too different from celluloid except for the difference in spin. In terms of speed and bounce and effort required, it's very similar. Other plastic balls such as Joola flip seem completely different. On Tuesdays , my serves are much less dangerous as I just don't have the touch for the ball . Short-short and pushing/flipping is really hard to adjust to but playing Topspin with plastic is surprisingly easier to adjust to for me.

What I'm trying to get to is:

1. Make sure you know which plastic will be used in your matches/tournaments. There are still too many differences. I hope the new ABS balls sort this issue out. Don't get Butterfly G40+ as it's very different from other balls (and really bad IMHO). I would recommend getting some ABS balls as you will be able to adjust to either spectrum without much trouble in case you use different kinds of plastic balls. Nittaku premium is , in my opinion, the best ball but it's pricey.

2. Get a good ball. Do some research. I somehow still feel that I would be better off training with celluloid and then switching a week before a tournament to plastic compared to just training with bad quality plastic balls.

But in general, do go for plastic. I also agree with ajtato's post.

Tinykin
12-21-2017, 08:53 AM
I've been to several tournaments in England this year and from memory:
National championships: Joola
Grand Prix (Butterfly sponsor): Butterfly G40
Grand Prix (Joola sponsor): Joola
2 star Hereford: Xushaofa
Local league: Xushaofa
Anyone here play British League? I can't recall which ball was used

14961

NDH
12-21-2017, 09:24 AM
We used Joola in British League at Westfield - Quite frankly the worlds worst ball (possibly second worst behind the Butterfly balls).

I think the record was 4 broken balls in 1 match!

TableTennisTom
12-21-2017, 09:36 AM
As others have commented - there is a real variance between different types of 40+ plastic ball. So even if you do multi-ball with one type of ball, it may not help you a great deal if you have to play a league match / tournament with a different type of plastic ball. It's a bit frustrating that we are still having to discuss this 2-3 years after the plastic balls were introduced. I'm sure in time the balls will become more similar, I just wish it would happen quicker.

I do some of my coaching session in a squash court with white walls, so I still use orange celluloid balls for these sessions. I did buy a box of orange XUSHAOFA (XSF) Vision Super Training 40+ balls, but just didn't like the bounce of these balls. So if anyone knows of a good orange 40+ training ball, please let me know!

Tinykin
12-21-2017, 02:04 PM
As others have commented - there is a real variance between different types of 40+ plastic ball. So even if you do multi-ball with one type of ball, it may not help you a great deal if you have to play a league match / tournament with a different type of plastic ball. It's a bit frustrating that we are still having to discuss this 2-3 years after the plastic balls were introduced. I'm sure in time the balls will become more similar, I just wish it would happen quicker.

I do some of my coaching session in a squash court with white walls, so I still use orange celluloid balls for these sessions. I did buy a box of orange XUSHAOFA (XSF) Vision Super Training 40+ balls, but just didn't like the bounce of these balls. So if anyone knows of a good orange 40+ training ball, please let me know!

I don't believe the celluloid ball is actually banned. After all celluloid, AFAIK, is just another form of composite material.
The chemistry experts here can correct me, but I think that we will always have big variances in the balls simply because the basic material can be made to emphasise so many different characteristics. Market forces can have some influence on the type of balls that become pre-eminent. But look at the G40+. The forumers on here almost to a man, hate them. But it's Butterfly, and whatever they or DHS says, goes.

ajtatosmano2
12-21-2017, 03:06 PM
Joola Flash is quite good. Xushaofa is good. G40+ is terrible. DHS D40+ is sometimes bad, sometimes good, depends on the batch. After playing with plastic balls since they appeared, I kinda like them over the celluloid ones. Those players who liked just spin the hell out of the balls and force an error with that might not like them.
In Hungary official tournaments are held with Joola Flash (because the association has a contract with Joola), in leagues 4th and higher everyone MUST use plastic (doesn't matter which, but the association plans to make regulations in the higher ones), in the lower leagues everyone uses what he wants (but they have to declare what is their choice at the beginning of the season)

Archosaurus
12-21-2017, 03:13 PM
imo if your level is low, it makes lesser of a difference

if your level is low, you focus is less on the ball but more on everything else

While I haven't actually extensively used plastic balls, and haven't even seen the new ones, this seems to be true. I wouldn't really know the difference between plastic and cell when I do drills because I'm already preoccupied with things such as not making bad contact, making contact in the first place, actually moving my legs etc. Chances are if I miss with a plastic ball I woulda missed anyway given the level I drill at.

Tinykin
12-21-2017, 03:20 PM
We used Joola in British League at Westfield - Quite frankly the worlds worst ball (possibly second worst behind the Butterfly balls).

I think the record was 4 broken balls in 1 match!

Yes. I was an umpire at the Nationals the first season that they were used. Usually we carry 3 balls in our pockets for each match. Embarrassingly, I had to go get fresh balls twice. It was a match between Helshan Weerasinghe and Adam Harrison. They were both wacking (and top edging) the ball like crazy. Great match, but either 7 or 8 balls were used, but it was a 7 game thriller so roughly a ball per game.

But I do think that it depends on the particular batch. I will go to some tournaments and the same 3 balls will last the whole 2-day tournament. Yet at others, it averages one ball per individual match.

Tinykin
12-21-2017, 03:36 PM
imo if your level is low, it makes lesser of a difference

if your level is low, you focus is less on the ball but more on everything else

Are you sure about this?

My experience is that it is the opposite. The higher level players quickly realise that whatever the playing conditions or equipment, it is roughly the same for everyone, so they now focus on winning.

NDH
12-21-2017, 03:41 PM
Are you sure about this?

My experience is that it is the opposite. The higher level players quickly realise that whatever the playing conditions or equipment, it is roughly the same for everyone, so they now focus on winning.

I think Tom was talking in the context of multi ball (that's certainly how I read it).

If I was coaching a beginner, and had a bucket of celluloid balls - It wouldn't make as much difference to the player, because I'd be coaching him on technique, footwork, anticipation, basic stroke mechanics.

Whereas coaching multi ball with an advanced player, the fractions of a second on timing difference (between POLY and celluloid), would make a difference, and therefore I'd stick with POLY.

That being said.... after all that has been spoken about above..... I'd just buy a whole load of new poly balls...... Banish the celluloid balls to the shadow realm!

Archosaurus
12-21-2017, 03:42 PM
Are you sure about this?

My experience is that it is the opposite. The higher level players quickly realise that whatever the playing conditions or equipment, it is roughly the same for everyone, so they now focus on winning.
What he meant is that higher level players pick up on the difference between cell and plastic better, while low level players might not even notice if you don't tell them.

Tinykin
12-21-2017, 03:45 PM
OK, got that.

Ndragon
12-22-2017, 03:10 PM
wow thanks for all the replies. Honestly these new plastic balls are a headache. They sell the Tibhar 40+ ones at my club so I use those, but then if I play with someone else and use their ball it plays quite different sometimes. Someone had the Nittaku one which was WAAAY different. There was 1 ball (not sure the brand but it was a practice ball) which was just downright unplayable.

I'm definitely not a low level player and when I did multiball with my celluloid when first coming back to TT again and I could feel my consistency much better than when I started playing with the plastic. It's just the cost issues and worrying that the ball would be worth it in the end. Or I may just not bother doing multiball until they get more consistent with the balls.

UpSideDownCarl
12-22-2017, 03:19 PM
My guess is, that after 3.5+ years of the Poly ball being the official ball, they may not get much better, and they may not get any more like each other. It is kind of pathetic. Part of it is that they can use different materials.

I adjust fairly easily from one ball to the next. I personally like the Nittaku Premium balls the best. But I can adjust regardless of which ball. However, I will say some of the Poly balls are really bad.

I think the DHS D40+ balls, the 3 star, may be inexpensive enough to use for multiball. And they are very durable.

brokenball
12-22-2017, 03:54 PM
A thousand curses on the ITTF for making this a issue.
Even the XuShoaFa balls cost about 3-4 time the Gambler plastic balls. That makes a basket of balls expensive. When training there tend to be balls all over the floor and too many balls commit suicide by rolling under my feet.

Ndragon
12-22-2017, 04:05 PM
My guess is, that after 3.5+ years of the Poly ball being the official ball, they may not get much better, and they may not get any more like each other. It is kind of pathetic. Part of it is that they can use different materials.

I adjust fairly easily from one ball to the next. I personally like the Nittaku Premium balls the best. But I can adjust regardless of which ball. However, I will say some of the Poly balls are really bad.

I think the DHS D40+ balls, the 3 star, may be inexpensive enough to use for multiball. And they are very durable.

Good shout on those DHS balls. Seen them on TT11 now. Might be worth doing that. Will look more into it and see if a friend would want to share