Same rubber on both sides for offensive players

[ajtatosmano2]

Why I'm using different rubber on bh and fh? Hmm...my first real rubbers were H3N on fh and G555 on bh. Just because they were quite cheap and the salesman recommended them. Then G555 worn out and I wanted something faster to my bh and bought a Vega Pro. After trying it, I wanted Vega pro on both sides. But after a while the VP's topsheet melt (ESN tensors can melt from some people's sweat). Then I bought an MX-P and a used Tenergy 64 (it was so cheap - I can't stand to buy it). Now, as I became better I can see that H3N was the perfect fh rubber for me (I learned to play with tacky rubbers and after the change to non-tacky rubbers my forehand sucks despite the hard training with high level players. I've tried a boosted (and heavily used) Skyline TG2 and oh my God! It was like heaven!) and MX-P is amazing on my backhand. I need the power and spin from these rubber. If I would have enough money maybe I would use T05 on the backhand.

Note: It's just my main blade, I only train with my EJ setups occasionally, just play with them at home.

 

[izra]

not so sure about that carl. some years back i experimented with some cheap tacky and mildly tacky rubbers. my forehand was just fine with stuff like friendship higher transcend and dawei inspirit quattro AL UL, but i was struggling with those same rubbers on the backhand. i played like that for a couple of months and it got to "sort of ok but not really". as soon as i switched to softer euro rubbers my backhand was fine again.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

not so sure about that carl. some years back i experimented with some cheap tacky and mildly tacky rubbers. my forehand was just fine with stuff like friendship higher transcend and dawei inspirit quattro AL UL, but i was struggling with those same rubbers on the backhand. i played like that for a couple of months and it got to "sort of ok but not really". as soon as i switched to softer euro rubbers my backhand was fine again.

Yeah. My BH would get used to some harder rubbers. But not all. And there are people who would not get used to harder rubbers on BH.

So optimal rubber for different people is a different issue. The top pros have developed technique that is solid enough so they can often use the same rubber on either wing.

The top CNT players are not using the regular H3 sponge on BH though. So that says something too.

But if you were using something suitable for you BH, your brain and nervous system, in calibrating your BH stroke to that rubber would, would not be using the information from your FH rubber. It would only be using your BH rubber. In essence FH and BH are two completely different actions. And what you do with FH does not have that much to do with what you do with your BH. From a neuromuscular standpoint FH stroke and BH stroke are just two different motor actions. So if you use a different rubber on BH than FH it will not slow your nervous system's processing speed nor your brain's processing speeds.

I actually have a feeling that what my experiment showed was that my FH can adapt more quickly to a wider range of rubbers. And that there is a smaller range of rubbers (still large enough) that my BH could easily adapt to.

But it still does amaze me when a good LP player who twiddles a lot is used to both the LP and the smooth rubber on both sides and you don't notice a hitch in their technique as they switch back and forth.

 

[izra]

But it still does amaze me when a good LP player who twiddles a lot is used to both the LP and the smooth rubber on both sides and you don't notice a hitch in their technique as they switch back and forth.

i have a team mate who plays exactly like this and i have just a bit of experience in this style when messing around with my spare LP combination against my students. i would say it's very close to switching back and forth between languages for bi-lingual people. as soon as you twiddle your brain just switches into mode B for both wings.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

i have a team mate who plays exactly like this and i have just a bit of experience in this style when messing around with my spare LP combination against my students. i would say it's very close to switching back and forth between languages for bi-lingual people. as soon as you twiddle your brain just switches into mode B for both wings.

That explains it sooooo well. And yeah, that is a large part of why I don't think using a different kind of rubber on each side would tax our brain processing and make us mess up more. Our brains can do so much more than we even realize.

But, again, I don't think brain processing even comes into the picture the way Baal was implying. When you have one rubber that you use for FH and another which you use for BH, your nervous system calibrates your BH to the BH rubber and it calibrates the FH to the FH rubber. And it does these two things independently of each other since they are different movements, different actions.

 

[Luis Nasche]

At least with me it's independent because when I flip a blade with different rubbers sometimes I feel it all right and sometimes don't. What happens is that some rubbers feels fine on BH and FH while others seens to work just on FH or BH.

For example, I like the way MX-P feels on my FH and BH while I just like Rakza 7 on my BH and Rasant Powergrip on my forehand. So it's as natural playing with Rakza 7 and RPG on a blade as it is with MX-P on both wings.

 

[yuri.saldon]

Yeah. My BH would get used to some harder rubbers. But not all. And there are people who would not get used to harder rubbers on BH.

So optimal rubber for different people is a different issue. The top pros have developed technique that is solid enough so they can often use the same rubber on either wing.

The top CNT players are not using the regular H3 sponge on BH though. So that says something too.

But if you were using something suitable for you BH, your brain and nervous system, in calibrating your BH stroke to that rubber would, would not be using the information from your FH rubber. It would only be using your BH rubber. In essence FH and BH are two completely different actions. And what you do with FH does not have that much to do with what you do with your BH. From a neuromuscular standpoint FH stroke and BH stroke are just two different motor actions. So if you use a different rubber on BH than FH it will not slow your nervous system's processing speed nor your brain's processing speeds.

I actually have a feeling that what my experiment showed was that my FH can adapt more quickly to a wider range of rubbers. And that there is a smaller range of rubbers (still large enough) that my BH could easily adapt to.

But it still does amaze me when a good LP player who twiddles a lot is used to both the LP and the smooth rubber on both sides and you don't notice a hitch in their technique as they switch back and forth.

Maybe fh is easier to adjustment because we use and training more than BH, at least in my club we do a lot more drills with fh than bh.
I think tack rubber are more suited to the side we can generate more power, which is fh side

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[Baal]

That explains it sooooo well. And yeah, that is a large part of why I don't think using a different kind of rubber on each side would tax our brain processing and make us mess up more. Our brains can do so much more than we even realize.

But, again, I don't think brain processing even comes into the picture the way Baal was implying. When you have one rubber that you use for FH and another which you use for BH, your nervous system calibrates your BH to the BH rubber and it calibrates the FH to the FH rubber. And it does these two things independently of each other since they are different movements, different actions.

Maybe. With that said, is it not also true that people are never as good at their second language as their first one, unless they learn both as children? Anyway, comparisons to language are never perfect since humans have an entire unique section of their brain devoted to nothing but language processing and generation. And brains do get fooled. There is a gigantic research enterprise in visual neuroscience trying to explain why the brain gets fooled by various visual illusions, and what this tells us about how the brain processes certain kinds of information.

I think the best argument against my initial hypothesis is your typical top level Chinese player and of course people who play well with LP on one side. Chinese players almost always use a tacky, hard, and very heavily boosted Hurricane on the FH side.

So let me get people's opinions on another related hypothesis. Is it possible that people using rubber asymmetry in an attempt to shore up the weaker side (usually the BH) are impeding the development of their shots by doing this? I return again to the observation that among top level (professional) offensive European or Japanese players, you almost always see the same rubber on both sides -- quite often a Tenergy or MX-P.

 

[thekleifheit13]

Maybe. With that said, is it not also true that people are never as good at their second language as their first one, unless they learn both as children? Anyway, comparisons to language are never perfect since humans have an entire unique section of their brain devoted to nothing but language processing and generation. And brains do get fooled. There is a gigantic research enterprise in visual neuroscience trying to explain why the brain gets fooled by various visual illusions, and what this tells us about how the brain processes certain kinds of information.

I think the best argument against my initial hypothesis is your typical top level Chinese player and of course people who play well with LP on one side. Chinese players almost always use a tacky, hard, and very heavily boosted Hurricane on the FH side.

So let me get people's opinions on another related hypothesis. Is it possible that people using rubber asymmetry in an attempt to shore up the weaker side (usually the BH) are impeding the development of their shots by doing this? I return again to the observation that among top level (professional) offensive European or Japanese players, you almost always see the same rubber on both sides -- quite often a Tenergy or MX-P.

I think that using an extreme equipment change to get around a weakness will absolutely impede development. If a kid learning to play switches to pips/anti to get around dealing with spin, they'll never learn the correct strokes, nor will they learn how to read spin. Now, a slower, less spinny rubber may give them the confidence to attempt strokes and, thus, help their development. It depends on how much they try and use their equipment as a crutch.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Maybe. With that said, is it not also true that people are never as good at their second language as their first one, unless they learn both as children? Anyway, comparisons to language are never perfect since humans have an entire unique section of their brain devoted to nothing but language processing and generation. And brains do get fooled. There is a gigantic research enterprise in visual neuroscience trying to explain why the brain gets fooled by various visual illusions, and what this tells us about how the brain processes certain kinds of information.

I think the best argument against my initial hypothesis is your typical top level Chinese player and of course people who play well with LP on one side. Chinese players almost always use a tacky, hard, and very heavily boosted Hurricane on the FH side.

So let me get people's opinions on another related hypothesis. Is it possible that people using rubber asymmetry in an attempt to shore up the weaker side (usually the BH) are impeding the development of their shots by doing this? I return again to the observation that among top level (professional) offensive European or Japanese players, you almost always see the same rubber on both sides -- quite often a Tenergy or MX-P.

Good post. And yes, using a rubber asymmetry could either help a players development or hinder it. And if the difference in the rubbers is really big like new Tenergy on FH and a 3 year old sheet of Dawei Inspirit that plays almost like antispin on BH. And the player is using the dead BH rubber to not have to deal with countering incoming spin but trying to do topspin strokes, it could really mess up the development of the BH or whichever is the weaker wing with the inferior rubber.

BTW: I have played with H3 FH and T05 and/or T64 on BH which is big difference. But other than that if I used a different rubber on BH than FH, it was always very close to the same rubber but slightly softer. ie: Xiom Omega IV Pro/Euro, Sigma II Pro/Euro, T05/05FX, Victas V>01 Stiff/Limber.

But MXP on both sides worked. I am sure T05 on both sides would work. And I do think you have a good point that often, using the same rubber on both sides might be preferable so that you can try to develop both sides more evenly.

But the examples of people who that really doesn't work for are worth understanding. You can't really make hard fast rules about something that has a lot to do with individual talent.

I will always wonder how a guy like Kreanga was able to develop such a monster BH and a guy like Ma Long had to work so darn hard to get his BH up to par as a compliment to his monster FH.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

Good post. And yes, using a rubber asymmetry could either help a players development or hinder it.

Or have no effect at all.

 

[NextLevel]

Or have no effect at all.

My feeling exactly. Baal is letting his personal experiences bias him too strongly. The Chinese approach should have settled this already.

 

[thekleifheit13]

.

But the examples of people who that really doesn't work for are worth understanding. You can't really make hard fast rules about something that has a lot to do with individual talent.

I will always wonder how a guy like Kreanga was able to develop such a monster BH and a guy like Ma Long had to work so darn hard to get his BH up to par as a compliment to his monster FH.

This point here kinda touches on one's natural ability to develop specific motor patterns, as well as the natural asymmetry of the human body. Some people will have a natural aptitude for one stroke, while others will unconsciously overdevelop one stroke early in training that causes bias. The right answer is that there is no right answer, I think we've all sort of been stating that for awhile here.

 

[yuri.saldon]

I think pros use tenergy (usually 05) or mx-p because both rubbers are the best they can get, in terms of spin/speed.


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[ajtatosmano2]

I think pros use tenergy (usually 05) or mx-p because both rubbers are the best they can get, in terms of spin/speed.


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Here is the point. They use: Tenergy 05, 80, 64, MX-P, H3 special made. There are exceptions, such as Stiga Calibra LT Spin used by Kristian Karlsson (he switched to Tenergy) and Bluefire pro versions e.g: Jonathan Groth. Anything else is very-very rare.

 

[NextLevel]

Here is the point. They use: Tenergy 05, 80, 64, MX-P, H3 special made. There are exceptions, such as Stiga Calibra LT Spin used by Kristian Karlsson (he switched to Tenergy) and Bluefire pro versions e.g: Jonathan Groth. Anything else is very-very rare.

There are more exceptions than you think. We really don't know what is out there to be honest. Quadri Aruna uses Joola rubbers, for example.

 

[Baal]

My feeling exactly. Baal is letting his personal experiences bias him too strongly. The Chinese approach should have settled this already.

Probably

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Probably

Still a good subject to discuss and consider. As is whether different rubbers can sometimes help or hinder a player's development.

And I do have a feeling using pips on one side and not actively working on developing topspin technique on that side would really undermine a player's ability to develop all the strokes before starting to specialize.

But I also know a player who started using pips at about 1400 and kept training and working on topspin strokes with FH and BH while working on all the things you can do with pips on both sides simultaneously and he is about 2000 as a result of working on attack and defensive games together. His attacking is not great. But he knew he did not have the aptitude for being an offensive player and was already trying to chop and play a defensive style before he started with pips. Still his topspin game is good enough to catch an opponent by surprise and change the dynamics of a rally. If he had just left his pips on the BH and never worked on all the skills involved in twiddling he might still be 1400-1600.

 

[BeGo]

Still a good subject to discuss and consider. As is whether different rubbers can sometimes help or hinder a player's development.

And I do have a feeling using pips on one side and not actively working on developing topspin technique on that side would really undermine a player's ability to develop all the strokes before starting to specialize.

But I also know a player who started using pips at about 1400 and kept training and working on topspin strokes with FH and BH while working on all the things you can do with pips on both sides simultaneously and he is about 2000 as a result of working on attack and defensive games together. His attacking is not great. But he knew he did not have the aptitude for being an offensive player and was already trying to chop and play a defensive style before he started with pips. Still his topspin game is good enough to catch an opponent by surprise and change the dynamics of a rally. If he had just left his pips on the BH and never worked on all the skills involved in twiddling he might still be 1400-1600.

better sample, Gustaf Ericson.



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[ajtatosmano2]

There are more exceptions than you think. We really don't know what is out there to be honest. Quadri Aruna uses Joola rubbers, for example.

The players I mentioned are just examples. I mean there is a low percent of players, who use something else (among adult two winged smooth rubber attacker men - just to be accurate) and their equipment is usually Bluefire, LT Spin, Rhyzm P (nothing else comes to my mind). Among women and kids are more exceptions.