I am 15 years old, what is the chance of becoming a professional?

[Der_Echte]

Because of the "must play matches" nature of most USA clubs, there is no training, no coaching going on. MAYBE, a better player will use the 15 minute slot to teach someone something on his last match on table as a favor, but on the whole, USA players are not coached there.

In a REAL full time club, which we are seeing more and more of, there will be a full time coach, or maybe one more, or several. You are looking at $50 USD an hour and in the places with higher level player/coaches, $80 - $100 an hour.

Adults, unless they are independently wealthy, do not seek lessons too much, very few do, some, but damn few. There are a few MILLIONAIRES in my local club who wear the same $3 white t-shirt to the club, and have not changed their bat's rubbers in almost a decade. They use everyone else's balls or a practice ball from the floor. They buy non-tt shoes from Walmart.

I am hands down the best coach for adults in the region, I charge $30 an hour, and I do not have very many players kicking down barriers to reach me. My rates are less than half of the high level dude who mostly doesn't teach much to an adult, but there are not many adults trying to learn by paying for lessons. A year of two of lessons is an almost-must-do for an adult learner starting out in TT, but here in the relatively rich area, even rich people shun lessons.

In their heart, they want to improve and play better, but they either do not want to pus aside their Scrooge side, or do not want to put in the work.

That is what you got in USA.

Mostly, the ones taking lessons are the kids who have parents that really like and respect TT and want to see their kids do well at it.

 

[Lula]

Do not have the adult training group due to studies But it really really worked well. Think this becomes more and more common in Sweden. Private training is not common in Sweden. I am against it and Would never offer my services that way. Feel like only the people with money have the opportunity then.

Regarding the OP question. If you were unmotivated and just become motivated you really really need to step up. The guys that become pros live and breathe Tabletennis. I think your interest and attitude need to skyrock if You are going to become better. Becoming a pro means not doing alot of other stuff, sacrifices. Like Waldner, do not really have much else.

 

[Der_Echte]

Lula, if you came to USA and looked to go to a club to coach and get paid, you would be flat broke in no time expecting to do it with general group training.

In USA, a coach isn't brought in by the TT club to just stand there, breath oxygen, look official, and collect a paycheck. There are zero full time coaches hired for the specific purpose of group training with some individual attention. The club brings in a coach to provide individual training. Club makes a percentage of the fees, coach collects the rest.

I charge $30 an hour and give club $10.

That is about half of what I should be charging.

In USA, no so many people are interested in a group lesson with some moments of individual attention. There are some clubs offereing it, mostly beginners do it, but it isn't in every club. People who go to the club pay a monthly fee to use the full time facility to practice or play matches, sometimes all day long every day if they are retired.

It is typical to pay $40-$70 USD a month to do this... it isn't a bad deal in most places. USA people on the whole are just not interested in paying a much higher amount that would allow hiring a full time coach like Lula and his level to train group or individual as part of membership fee. With a club that has 100 memebrs, you would need to make everyone pay $200 USD a month to make this possible. Not everyone, actually few, would take the group and individual time enough to make it a value, so why is the American gunna pay all that money? Not gunna happen.

Sure, clubs offer some group lessons, but it is essentially private lessons watered down for a group with a reduced charge. Sure, some clubs even give certain members or just general members a group lesson for an hour on say a Sat AM. This is pretty much to get beginners to come to the club, like it, and become paying memebrs.

In Korea, you can pay around $60 USD a month to play every day and be part of the club - a great deal. You can pay $150 a month to get 10 lessons a month that last 20 minutes. (A fit 20 yr old dude may not survive past 10 minutes without calling for a portable defibulator machine) That is also a good deal. A lot of Koreans are inclined to do that, so a normal club with 4-6 tables and 150 members has half or more taking lessons... it allows the owner to hire 1-2 more coaches... now they do not make a lot of money, but if they live with mom and do not go shopping, they can get ahead.

In Europe, there is support for sport inmany ways, both direct financial and indrect with facilities. No way to manage an operation without this involvement. That takes some govt decision to see supporting sport as a positive effective way to save money to prevent crime or increase some goal, etc... and the people who pay all the taxes support it... so it is good with everyone.. so ti can work there.. and that is great. Europe is great in that fashion in they pretty much figure out how to collectively get along with their high tax money and agree on its allocation more or less. USA is never gunna get like that.

A lot of the world doesn't work that with taxes, govt, and voter support.

 

[Der_Echte]

There are some people who offocially or unofficially volunteer to help others for free in a club.

I do that a lot. Maybe that is why I am terrible at getting a lot of people to pay me for lessons, they know I will help them out anyway. There are a number of Vietnamese and Chinese O60 retired crowd that play all day from 10 AM to 6 or 7 PM. I get off work and go to the club after work a few days a week and often hit with this crowd for an hour or so. Sometimes I buy stuff to help them out, even if they are prolly 10x richer than me. Before Corona, I bout a big Joola ball cart to hol balls for them to use for multiball. I asked then to mark the cart for their use. I donated a tripod with cell phone adapter, so they could video their stroke when they want.

All in all, a lot of that crowd wants to get better, but they are not gunna get private lessons, they are pretty much hapy with playing doubles and singles all day long.

 

[Der_Echte]

Some of the time I spend with the recreational retired crowd at my club is just to "Goof-Off".. I play a relaxed doubles or singles or single ball from cart..., but goofing off has some benefits... it is relaxing and you are actually working on feel and touch or movement without pressure or rigor of training... over time, it has an effect.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Listening to Americans referring to USATT ratings is bit like Kenyans commenting on the state of world ice hockey.

I do think you make a few interesting points.

I think the rating numbers are just a reference point and it is true it is hard to transfer the USATT numbers to the German TTR system or other rating systems. It is just to get a base level. But it is true. The base level in Sweden is higher than in USA by a good amount. And that also makes it seem that, if you start in a place where the base level is higher, you probably have a better chance of getting to a higher level.

But I have a feeling that also makes it so it is less likely that you have someone who doesn't start till 15 years old, doesn't show any notable talent for the sport and the person is starting while never having played any other racket sports.

I would say, transplanting that person into Sweden or China, it still would make it hard for that person to get to the levels of the highest rankings in either country.

But, if you grew up in Sweden, played casually as a kid, were surrounded by good players, and at 15 decided you wanted to start, you might have a better chance of getting to a decent level given the right coaching and training schedule.

I have a story. Something related to low level of play in USA. I was at SPiN. This is probably 5 years ago, maybe 6. I was messing around, hitting with a friend. This guy came up to us. He was with his family. Wife, 2 kids. He was probably about my current age (55). He was a big guy. A little overweight. He had had several beers and I would say he was fairly drunk. He was from Sweden. He came up to us and said, he was looking around and that it looked like me and my friend were the only people in the club who actually had any idea how to play. (This was true). He said he hadn't played in about 30 years but he would appreciate us hitting with him for a little. We did.

He was way better than either of us despite having had several pints and not having played in 30 years. So we are rotating and having fun. And I know a friend who works across the street who happens to be working. And this guy is somewhere between 2200-2300 USATT rated. So, considerably better than me or my training partner. And the guy from Sweden really is not challenged by playing with either of us.

So, my friend comes and joins us and he starts playing the guy from Sweden and they decide to play a match. For the first two games, the games are close but my friend is winning. The first game was something like 11-7. The second game he won at deuce. After that, he could not get a game off the guy from Sweden. Scores decended like: 7, 4, 3, 2.....

So, yeah, talking about USATT rating is not really a good assessment of the rest of the world. It is just to give an idea and a base level.

The point of the numbers was, as you get closer and closer to ratings that are normal for players in the top 100, it gets harder and harder to progress and get to higher levels. It would not matter if you used a rating system from Germany or Sweden. That part of the point is the one that matters.

This guy we met, he was pretty good as a kid.

I had something similar happen at a different place where this guy from Denmark started playing me with a junk racket that this bar had for people to use. I saw instantly he could play and that it made no sense him playing with a toy. I had an extra racket and said he could use it. This guy also hadn't played in a while. He was younger though, in his 30s. But he was much better than the guy from Sweden. After we played a while and had fun, and I confess, he was pretty gracious because he was sooooooooooo much better than me. But he realized that, aside from him, I was the next best player in the place. So he was nice to me as we played.

Anyway, we talked after and it turned out that as a kid he played and trained with Michael Maze. No wonder he was so good. He also told me how, after Maze had that crazy comeback against Hao Shuai, how that night, CNT had someone calling Maze's room or knocking on the door all night to try and keep him from getting sleep.

But yeah, USA has a low overall level compared to countries that are competitive in the sport. And yeah, the numbers are not completely transparent. They are just to give a general baseline.

 

[mart1nandersson]

Do not have the adult training group due to studies But it really really worked well. Think this becomes more and more common in Sweden. Private training is not common in Sweden. I am against it and Would never offer my services that way. Feel like only the people with money have the opportunity then.

Regarding the OP question. If you were unmotivated and just become motivated you really really need to step up. The guys that become pros live and breathe Tabletennis. I think your interest and attitude need to skyrock if You are going to become better. Becoming a pro means not doing alot of other stuff, sacrifices. Like Waldner, do not really have much else.

I would disagree. Private training is becoming more and more common especially for the kids. We have a few kids in the club in the age span 11-13 who trains 5-6 times a week with the club and then compliments it with lessons with other coaches (Sjöberg for example) weekly or biweekly. I know that kids from the other clubs are doing similar things.

 

[mart1nandersson]

So, yeah, talking about USATT rating is not really a good assessment of the rest of the world. It is just to give an idea and a base level.

But is it even a baseline within the US? I've only seen two 2000 USATT players live (I prefer live or youtube as you see the matches in a different way) and their skill levels were miles a part. The first one would struggle in division 5 here in Stockholm but the other guy wouldn't make a fool out of himself in division 1 to 3.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

But is it even a baseline within the US? I've only seen two 2000 USATT players live (I prefer live or youtube as you see the matches in a different way) and their skill levels were miles a part. The first one would struggle in division 5 here in Stockholm but the other guy wouldn't make a fool out of himself in division 1 to 3.

I do think this is also a good and interesting point. In US I think there are a certain number of real junk players who are not skilled at the sport but know how to win against people who don't know how to play against them. And it is stuff that would not work in any other sport. So, the rating #s are just not perfect.

And because of the nature of TT, I have seen guys who look amazing in practice and then you watch them play matches and they are not as good at playing matches as their technique looks when they are training. But at the higher numbers it gets closer and closer to having a meaning. Like, someone who is just a junk ball player who does not have real skills is unlikely get to a 2600 rating. As the level gets higher, there is more need for skill even if a player relies on a high level of deception. That alone won't work at above a certain level.

And in spite of the imperfection of the system, I am not sure if there is another way for someone from USA to convey a base level where someone has skills at playing the game. So, it is an imperfect measure. And the question is: is it better than no measure at all?

I am not sure the answer to that question. But I think enough people will have a general idea of what is meant when someone says, this player was 2200 (USATT). That is all those numbers are for. If someone said 1700 TTR (German system), I would have a general idea that that was somewhere in the ballpark of 2100-2400 (USATT). In other words, 1700 TTR is referring to a player who is fairly solid fundamentally, even if there could be a player who is more, or less fundamentally solid who has that TTR rating.

 

[Lula]

Now i would day it is more common due to the virus But i Do not like the Idea of private coaching. Becomes to much like tennis. Feel like the equal opportunities is then out of the door. Maybe it is okay with private coaching But still need group practice so everyone can participate. I think alot of swedish clubs get money from having alot of youth players That pay member and training fees when participating in organized group practice. Alot of tournaments, sedlig stuff and sponsor Also being in the money.

 

[mart1nandersson]

Now i would day it is more common due to the virus But i Do not like the Idea of private coaching. Becomes to much like tennis. Feel like the equal opportunities is then out of the door. Maybe it is okay with private coaching But still need group practice so everyone can participate. I think alot of swedish clubs get money from having alot of youth players That pay member and training fees when participating in organized group practice. Alot of tournaments, sedlig stuff and sponsor Also being in the money.

I kind of agree and not agree. The typical Swedish club is like a pyramid for the kids. You’ll have something like 4-6 training groups based on skill level from beginner to “elite”. The beginner groups will have a factor 2-4 more kids compared to the more advanced groups. There’s equal opportunity in he sense that you will get multi ball time and attention if you have talent combined with your coach liking you or otherwise you’ll either quit or find alternatives such as private coaching.

The kids that do not have the talent is funding the training for the very good players. Most clubs would not survive without the money from the average/less talented players.

I’m quite new to the sport and respect your view as you’re very experienced but I’ve talked to so many upset parents that I have a very clear view of how it works in different clubs. I work at a place with more than 2000 employees (many Chinese colleagues) and it’s quite amazing how many of their kids that play TT. I had no idea about this before I started.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

 

[Der_Echte]

What HijackY?

You and Lula are having a real talk and it is very relevant to TT and training and development.

A LOT of members have no idea how TT clubs work outside their small area.

Your "Hijacky" is clearly beneficial.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

The average "club" level in USA for TT is pretty low, but it is all relative, but even in absolute terms average USATT "club" player level is pretty low and awkward. You have to understand the average USATT "Club", like 3/4+ of them are not conventional full time operating with competent coaching... it is usually a rented community center or school hall where they setup tables for a couple hours, play matches, then put the tables back up.

Even the nation of KOREA, which is respected worldwide for a very high level of TT... even their amateur system is pretty weak. The average Korean club level is pretty close to USA average club level.. and 80% of Korean players are in a band that is one level above to 2-3 levels below average club level... which means most of them suck compared to a more developed and organized nation's amateur TT. Even the top level is pretty weak, much weaker than USA, which is considered weak.

The Koreans have a system to pick out promising athletes and train them early... they do not allow the pro trained athletes to compete in amateur TT tourneys, except only in national tourneys in the "Pro Player" division.

My trip to Copenhagen, I played with TT Ninja who was Div 1 in his country. I made it to 5 games vs him and lost.. at the time I was 50 pts below 2000 level California. I would say Ninja was at least solid 2150s plus level USATT. There were several other players who seemed near his level at the club in Copenhagen.

Leagues differ a lot. Here Country division is one level below National Div 4.

 

[Der_Echte]

The Koreans use City/Regional divisions for classification mostly. Some clubs use a club division classification, if they have a lot of beginners in different stages.

There is also the national division classification. Some Div 1 City are Div national or Div 3 nationl level. You have to win to move up to the next division, but only at that national tourney. So if you win the DMZ open Div 4, you are Div 3 in that tourney the next year, but still Div 4 national everywhere else until you win again, and even then you are next higher division only at that tourney.

 

[Der_Echte]

Koreans are mostly motivated to stay lower division for the TEAM event. Why? HANDICAP. if a player is Div 2 national play level, but keeps his classification at Div 4 national, he gets a 3 pt handicap from the equal level player who was simply honest in his efforts to win tourneys.

This also stacks the top end ridiculous better than rest of field.

If you are a middle of the road Div 4 national player and you go to a large national tourney, you can play 3 levels better than your true level and maybe not reach the round of 64. That is how stacked the divisions are at the top. Maybe 5 levels of different between the top contenders and upper part of middle of the road pack in Div 4.

All divisions in a national tourney are like that. Doesn't matter how good you are, unless you are truly 5 or 6 levels better than the top 30% of players in your field, you have zero chance to go very far, if you even manage to advance out of group stage.

 

[lightspin]

One fact people might be overlooking about "2000 rated players" is that they might not be telling the truth about their rating. All the time in the club people ask me to train and then spout off some rating. More often than not what they say and what their max rating was, are two different numbers very far apart. I cut people some slack because even both my current rating and league rating in the database are wrong, but they are not 600-1000 points off like a few people I have run into.

Another fact to consider is if you watch someone in a tournament or in practice. I know a lot of 2200-2400 people who simply don't care at all about practice games. They use practice games to practice. Run into them in a tournament or play them for money and you probably will see something close to their real level. I learned this the hard way as one of my old practice partners was over 2400 and we would split matches in training. When we played in an official tournament he crushed me. As we shook hands after he laughed and said "Practice is for practice" and all I could to is laugh back in agreement.

 

[Der_Echte]

Martin's observation about USATT 2000...

He may have seen two entirely different styles or abilities to cope with a certain style.

There are also some players who look REALLY GOOD in warm-up with near-pro strokes and timing, but in matches, they lose enough points to lose games and that player isn't as high as he looks.

Some players just naturally cope with certain shots or play style better. IF dude is real good a step behind table counter-looping, it may look like he could "Hang" at a higher level of play. There may also be reasons why that player is lower than it may appear.

All systems that use a point total based on win/losses with adjustments... all these systems are simply in comparison to others in the same system.

Even in your national divisions, there are several levels of play level in those divisions and some will do well or poor vs something.

I am pretty much the opposite, my practice looks garbage and I play matches better.

In Korea, opposite as when I was there (now changed some) NO ONE had a BH topspin heavy... so I walk into a club off the street zero lessons zero coaching and can make a heavy spin loop BH real easy... they think I am better than Div 1, which is 2000-2200 USATT... and all the time, I was just a rec player at 1600 level... 5 levels or so below their Div 1 standard when I started.

That is an example of what an impression of a certain aspect may cause someone to make an opinion that may hold up or not.

ttMonster may remember that time in CLC league 2017 where our top player, a perennial 2200+ level guy, struggled vs a 1900s player who had real pro looking BH and FH strokes close to the table and could play FAST and consistent under pressure (because that is forever what she trained with 2300 level players and her practice and match strokes were that - but had a weak area or two)… our 2200+ level dude struggled, was behing late in the 5th game and pulled it out to win - barely, but a win.

I played vs the same player 2 matches later and it looked like she did not have much a chance vs me. I was rated upper 1700s California at that time... and I made it look easy. I did some things she hated - I slowed ball down and spun HEAVY, I also fast countered her opening BH for a crush kill, instead of blocking or going same to same BH. Those were the only reasons I won and looked better. If/when she figured out what to do , I would be the one with no chance... or at least less chance.

TT can go like that and maybe that is why your sample size of two gives you those observations.

A player on the side looking at both these matches might conclude that I was a better player than our strong player, where the facts show, at the time, I was prolly 5 levels lower player minimum.

 

[Der_Echte]

One fact people might be overlooking about "2000 rated players" is that they might not be telling the truth about their rating. All the time in the club people ask me to train and then spout off some rating. More often than not what they say and what their max rating was, are two different numbers very far apart. I cut people some slack because even both my current rating and league rating in the database are wrong, but they are not 600-1000 points off like a few people I have run into.

Another fact to consider is if you watch someone in a tournament or in practice. I know a lot of 2200-2400 people who simply don't care at all about practice games. They use practice games to practice. Run into them in a tournament or play them for money and you probably will see something close to their real level. I learned this the hard way as one of my old practice partners was over 2400 and we would split matches in training. When we played in an official tournament he crushed me. As we shook hands after he laughed and said "Practice is for practice" and all I could to is laugh back in agreement.

I agree with a lot of your main points.

Tournament tough players find a way to be calm and win under pressure or not in a tourney. Many of these do not value winning a club match (unless it is chicken and beer kinda stuff)

Yeah, some players say whatever. I always though I had 2000 level, but I could neve prove it in tourney, despite many tourneys, so my level really wasn't 200, was it? At least not until I got that level and proved it a few times in tourney matches. Truth was, no matter what I looked or felt like, I just wasn't a 2000 level player yet, in fact, for a time, I wasn't good enough, or only barely good enough during one year to be 1800 California.

I have the Rambo mentality and I want to compete in everything I do and hate failure... yet the last couple years, as bad as my attitude in that area was, it got better and miraculously, my tourney level got better. Coincidence? Maybe, I was beginning to hang around a few better players who forced me to play better, but I always had the shots to compete, but more likely, not the right mind in the right areas well enough. When I improved there, I became a better tourney player.

The best player in our city is a lot like your 2400 friend, you might win a match vs him in league very infrequently as he tries different stuff out, but you have to look real hard in the database to see if a local defeated him in a real sanctioned tourney.

 

[Lula]

Feel like Americans and or keyboard warriors are very focused on ranking points. Maybe there is a necessity to be able to compare players online. Always thought that grown men that Do not play tabletennis for a living that Have a crazy high focus on ranking points are pretty odd types

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

we don't have ranking points in Japan, problem solved