How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

Yesterday I got a memory card for my phone, so now in a better position to record more matches without stuffing the storage on my phone!!
Good idea to do a match every couple of weeks, we’ll go down that route.

How di' IB66,

I bring two phones with me to leagues and tournaments

one is dedicated to recording matches/lessons/training session only (500 GB micro) i then transfer these recordings to my PC as needed (about once a week) one night going to sleep & when i wake up wa' la' all files are transferred to PC hard-drive (1TB) for later viewing, i review my coaching/training session regularly, reminding myself of what needs work (not enough space to list) and enhance my strength (e.g. serves)

the other (everyday phone) i use PingSkills app (under Vault) allows me accessing plyr (assuming we played before) notes i keep track, on what each is not comfortable with & what they do to make me uncomfortable, i read my notes pre-match as soon as i find out who is in my group, each plyr's tendency, strengths (avoid), weakness (attack), their serves ... puts me a little ahead of the game

Let me know when you find cooL ways to use your phone/videos as a part of your training repertoire

Hope your back is better 💪

LDM7

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Morning PPP,

Now that you're retired, do you still get out and play or have you hung up your racket?

LDM7

hi ldm7 i’ll never retire!
however having to isolate during covid meant no play or physical activity for about 2 yrs which caused depression. However I am now active again, coaching 5 days a week and practicing seriously maybe twice a week. I participate in the clubs monthly tournamen but dont travel to tourneys. I am gradually recovering my. game, but my 74 yr old self is much slower than the previous model.
in fact as i post this via wifi on coach i am travelling to club tournament 2day!
ppp

 

[Der_Echte]

There is no amount of talking that will fix serve return issues, it is the biggest thing that gets better with experience and practice. But you need to structure your experience so that certain things become apparent faster. The biggest thing you can do to structure your experience is to learn to play to play standard strokes against all kinds of serves.

So True. I have tried to emphasize this with LDM7, that it is great (and needed) to hear a verbal explanation to learn and be in a better position to see/realize what is happening, but a lot of stuff simply has to be experienced... you correctly note that you do not mindlessly do that, you do it with a plan and an approach.

I said at U2200 (not 1200, U2200), that almost no one serves short, so I think your training partner was being kind, I hope it was not DerEchte as it means we have to argue, I think 100% of serves at the U1200 level are loopable...

I hope it wasn't me who said that earlier (if we are talking purely about the physical ability for anything that comes long to be able to be looped). Any ball that comes back CAN be looped, so the statement that 100% of long serves are loopable is true. The issue is how well of a sales job did the server do and how deceptive was the server on disguising spin, pace, break angle and such.

Even the "short" serves of much of the U2200 Cali crowd are attackable if you can see them, read them, decide on attack and move. As good as Cali 2000+ players are, they are not serving powerhouses. How well they sell deception on serve will affect the confidence to attack them.

Just because a ball is loopable, doesn't mean that is SHOULD be looped. If the player does not read the ball (where it is going when with what going how fast with what vector and arriving at what height in the strike zone) then that player will be pissing away a LOT of points. There is a plethora of eager beaver types who read the forum, learn a little, try to do it, then get there butt kicked in 10x more than before. This situation is a tactical application. Judgement and confidence if can read, use good judgement and play a non-attack if you cannot read or get to effective position. So many players lose points using strong attacking shots when they did not get into a position that gives them enough leverage and angles. Most typical is hitting too far in front of zone. Some players do not have the luxury of a training environment and must use matches they play in the "club" for practice, so in that situation all out attacking everything sacrificing points is a viable strategic developmental method, maybe the only one available for many.

However, for a player to grow, a player MUST be SEEKING to LOOP those long serves in practice... EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEM. There should be a balance struck somewhere of practicing the recognition of the serve being long (and having courage to attack) and the practice of getting into position good enough to give oneself a better chance to make the shot. NOT using a long backswing on most balls is important when close to table, especially for the BH loop vs a deep ball. This is a situation of strategic development... and it is real important to be training deficiencies like this in a training environment.

The progression I strive to articulate is you have improvement on something in training, then you try to use it in your "goof off" or unimportant matches, then you apply it in your league matches, then in sanctioned or big time tourneys. it takes longer for each stage of the progression, often 6 months or more for something improved in training to be acceptable consistently applied successfully in the match (let's call it 70-80% plus landing percentage for a loop vs some ball that previously troubled you)

I would not want to go into an argument vs Next Level when he is prepared, because he is going to present facts and logic to prove the arguement. I would have to be equally prepared with facts and logic to show we could both be right - that can happen sometimes, but if Next Level is gunna go into argument territory, whoever he is arguing against is often not in the right or not right enough.

If you doubt me, challenge your coach who is a strong server to get the length right 6 out of 10 times for $50 (as in out of 10, serves, he must be able to call 3 of those that will double bounce and hit the back end line and 3 of those that will just come off the table)

Next Level has seen a lot of my serving, he coined the phrase HTSB (High Toss Servy Bastard) He knows for my level, I serve some mean serves to fool opponent what I am doing. What Next Level also knows is that I do not consistently serve my short serves double bouncing right on the endline. I just focus on getting it short/tight/low with deception and variation. I DO have a decent half long serve, LDM and the Russian Pastor Roman have seen me make that serve 80% of my attempts when I have him practice relaxed looping vs halflong balls... but I doubt I would attempt 7 double bounce serves to land on endline and get 3 to land there... I would be confident on halflong.

 

[Der_Echte]

Next Level and I could go on and on and on about serves, we have done so a LOT in the past on TT Daily and everywhere else.

NL has said a few things about my serves and confusion in the past. Getting the opponent confused and frustrated is a science and an art. The mental aspect of this is likely an equally important part the same as how well/tight/low the serve is. Being a good salesman helps a lot.

Next Level can sell you your own underwear if you do not watch carefully how he serves, so do not ever under-rate him, or you will piss away a lot of points.

 

[Der_Echte]

I like how Next Level is very careful to ensure what he says has a proper context.

I am of a similar mind... and unfortunately, it takes a little time to setup context... that is frustrating to LDM7 when I do that, he wants the answer right away. Sometimes I can provide that if the context is already there. He wants usable info right now.

I do not want to set him up wrong, so I make sure context is clearly articulated, I hope I do not lose him in those times.

 

[daisy7]

Same here, Concentration is main thing in any task

 

[NextLevel]

I like how Next Level is very careful to ensure what he says has a proper context.

I am of a similar mind... and unfortunately, it takes a little time to setup context... that is frustrating to LDM7 when I do that, he wants the answer right away. Sometimes I can provide that if the context is already there. He wants usable info right now.

I do not want to set him up wrong, so I make sure context is clearly articulated, I hope I do not lose him in those times.

It's the beauty of sport.
Basketball: put ball into rim.
Football/soccer: kick ball in between posts.
Tennis: hit ball onto opponent's side of court
Table tennis: play ball on the opponent's side on table.

What they don't say: "the opponent gets to hit the ball too, and that makes your life infinitely more complicated."

 

[IB66]

Sometimes when I’m helping to coach players of a higher standard than the youngsters I’m usually coaching.
We may set a routine such as, short backspin serve to Bh, long push to Fh, slow FH high spin open up then play out point.
I have to keep reminding them to serve a ‘ match’ quality serve, concentrate on the serve, don’t just ‘get the ball in play’
How often do you actually practice your serve? I ask, usually, 9 times out of 10 they don’t!! So unless reminded they piss away the chance of practicing a serve type!!

To make things a little more competitive, we’ll play the routine match style, If the serve is long, ie 3rd bounce past opponents end of the table, the receiver wins point by default and scores 2 points, they must leave the ball though, if they push the long ball, point continues as usual. If the receiver leaves the ball and the ball bounces for the 3rd time on their end of the table, server gets 2 points!!!

 

[Wrighty67]

I am loving this thread and the way it has evolved as it is so relevant to my journey of improvement. LDM7 has asked me to post some video footage from one of my matches, which until last night I didn't have...

This is from my 4th match of the season in Winchester league division 1 - we have won 3 of 4 so far and currently sit at the top of the league, although I think it unlikely we will stay there. I have a win rate of just under 60% having won 7 of 12 matches so far. Last night I managed to win 2 of 3 and the third was a close 5 setter.

This is a video of my first match (only 1.8 games recorded for some tech reason) I won 3-1 but despite the win I found it very uncomfortable watching for a few reasons;

Match starts around 1:22 - I am in the blue shirt

1. Serve - much better when I am more relaxed. I appear to be rushing it and not committing to the spin I am targeting. In this match my BH serve proved pretty effective at getting me a topspin ball to attack.

2. FH - way way too hooky in shape and very ugly. I make good contact generally and feel confident using it on anything half long or longer but need to work on the shape.

3. Footwork - horrible, seeing me in a position where I am reaching behind me on the FH or just generally caught out of position

4. BH - so many missed opportunities to attack on this side that I miss and use a push instead..

I would love any other feedback from those of you with the time and patience to watch.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi Wrighty,

I could and will say a lot of things and hope all will understand the relative and contextual things.

Will to attack the attackable balls:

I can get on the high horse and question your courage on why you do not attack what should be attacked... but there are reasons for why you choose not to attack what should be attacked. This comes down to how well you can see what opponent did to the ball, where/how it will go with what and when/if you can get to a position to establish the strike zone with stance and leverage. This is central to every shot in table tennis. You are not attacking these balls mostly because you have not developed this ability a lot... so you know you will make enough errors to make it not worth attacking when you should. If a player cannot attack with minimum quality and get at least 70-80 percent landing percentage, then tactically, it isn't a benefit to attack. This is also a strategic development personal decision: Should I use matches to train my will to attack and quality, or should I play a match to train how to win. There is no single correct answer, many paths possible. Some will emphasize one more than the other. I try to be balanced and use a progressive incremental approach to improve skill in training and phase it in on matches, casual, league then sanctioned tourneys.

The next major reason is technical ability to make the shots with quality. Later, it becomes a matter of confidence. Remember that one gains confidence by seeing the ball land (after you successfully apply courage) Sometimes it is a matter of not being able to discern the impact, which is a sub-component of the number one reason, but certain opponents are just simply harder to read impact than others. I personally experience this vs many young Indian players and certain Russian players.

Putting energy on the ball, whether that is heavy spin or fast loop:

Your attacks are not very troubling to opponent. You need to generate more spin or pace where it helps your chances. Some of this is from the number one reason - difficult to read ball properly, then get there... a lot of it is you have not learned how to make a good whip with leverage being loose. Just about every player in your class and many players a level or two above your class do not do this so well... so it isn't the end of the world, but an opportunity.

Still, even if the spin or pace is not high enough quality to be overbearing troubling, there is an immense benefit to successfully attack consistently. It affects the other players' mental state and that helps a lot as the match wears on. It is not something to ignore.

Serving:

OK, so your serves are mostly long or deep serves with a little variation in spin or placement. Not exactly doing a lot for you. The serve is there for the server to gain an IMMEDIATE OFFENSIVE ADVANTAGE... or vs really skilled players, it is to limit their options and make them predictable. So, one has to ask the question - Are my serves setting up my offense? What can I do to make them so? If my serves get a long ball back from opponent, then I should attack it with spin or pace or placement and get the advantage. You are not there and nearly everyone your class and a level above are not there, so it isn't a national crime yet. It is a matter of strategic development and how you want to prioritize.

LDM7 is going through this process of how to change his mentality and his technical ability... to have courage and get to position with leverage and make the attack. There are many phases going back and forth with one aspect getting better, then facing better players and the process restarts. This never ends as you face increasingly better players. I believe this single aspect is one of the most attractive aspects of table tennis, if not the most. With Tabe Tennis, if one has the will and drive to strive for improvement, one has literally a LIFETIME POSSIBILITY to continually improve. One will never get it all. There will ALWAYS be ways to improve. Both LDM7 and Der_Echte really like this about table tennis.

The base FH loop and footwork:

You can train and get the base FH better, it will start with some learning, improvement in stance and with predictable balls where you do not move much if at all. Later, you incorporate movement and randomness. I could REALLY get on a high horse about footwork and exclaim that if a 240 pound 5 ft 7 and 55 yr old dude like me can move and get to a lot of balls, then ANYONE should be able to do that. I stand by that assertion, but I will keep it real. I go 20 minute 2x a week lessons in Korea that were essentially footwork lessons... and it still took me TEN DAMN YEARS before I could apply those instinctively in a number of ways that I do now and teach.

There is a Pastor I train for free - my goal was to get him to stop being a hard slapper (40 yrs he slaps) I wanted to get him to learn how to be loose and get a reliable whip to spin balls... jury is still out on him for this... but in under a year, he now has very solid footwork... ESPECIALLY to his Wide Forehand.

If it took me ten years to become decent at footwork, I would not expect anyone to get there in 5 years... but it might be a matter of Der_Echte being more of a hard head than the average citizen.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

I could and will say a lot of things and hope all will understand the relative and contextual things.

Will to attack the attackable balls:

I can get on the high horse and question your courage on why you do not attack what should be attacked... but there are reasons for why you choose not to attack what should be attacked. This comes down to how well you can see what opponent did to the ball, where/how it will go with what and when/if you can get to a position to establish the strike zone with stance and leverage. This is central to every shot in table tennis. You are not attacking these balls mostly because you have not developed this ability a lot... so you know you will make enough errors to make it not worth attacking when you should. If a player cannot attack with minimum quality and get at least 70-80 percent landing percentage, then tactically, it isn't a benefit to attack. This is also a strategic development personal decision: Should I use matches to train my will to attack and quality, or should I play a match to train how to win. There is no single correct answer, many paths possible. Some will emphasize one more than the other. I try to be balanced and use a progressive incremental approach to improve skill in training and phase it in on matches, casual, league then sanctioned tourneys.

The next major reason is technical ability to make the shots with quality. Later, it becomes a matter of confidence. Remember that one gains confidence by seeing the ball land (after you successfully apply courage) Sometimes it is a matter of not being able to discern the impact, which is a sub-component of the number one reason, but certain opponents are just simply harder to read impact than others. I personally experience this vs many young Indian players and certain Russian players.

Putting energy on the ball, whether that is heavy spin or fast loop:

Your attacks are not very troubling to opponent. You need to generate more spin or pace where it helps your chances. Some of this is from the number one reason - difficult to read ball properly, then get there... a lot of it is you have not learned how to make a good whip with leverage being loose. Just about every player in your class and many players a level or two above your class do not do this so well... so it isn't the end of the world, but an opportunity.

Still, even if the spin or pace is not high enough quality to be overbearing troubling, there is an immense benefit to successfully attack consistently. It affects the other players' mental state and that helps a lot as the match wears on. It is not something to ignore.

Serving:

OK, so your serves are mostly long or deep serves with a little variation in spin or placement. Not exactly doing a lot for you. The serve is there for the server to gain an IMMEDIATE OFFENSIVE ADVANTAGE... or vs really skilled players, it is to limit their options and make them predictable. So, one has to ask the question - Are my serves setting up my offense? What can I do to make them so? If my serves get a long ball back from opponent, then I should attack it with spin or pace or placement and get the advantage. You are not there and nearly everyone your class and a level above are not there, so it isn't a national crime yet. It is a matter of strategic development and how you want to prioritize.

LDM7 is going through this process of how to change his mentality and his technical ability... to have courage and get to position with leverage and make the attack. There are many phases going back and forth with one aspect getting better, then facing better players and the process restarts. This never ends as you face increasingly better players. I believe this single aspect is one of the most attractive aspects of table tennis, if not the most. With Tabe Tennis, if one has the will and drive to strive for improvement, one has literally a LIFETIME POSSIBILITY to continually improve. One will never get it all. There will ALWAYS be ways to improve. Both LDM7 and Der_Echte really like this about table tennis.

The base FH loop and footwork:

You can train and get the base FH better, it will start with some learning, improvement in stance and with predictable balls where you do not move much if at all. Later, you incorporate movement and randomness. I could REALLY get on a high horse about footwork and exclaim that if a 240 pound 5 ft 7 and 55 yr old dude like me can move and get to a lot of balls, then ANYONE should be able to do that. I stand by that assertion, but I will keep it real. I go 20 minute 2x a week lessons in Korea that were essentially footwork lessons... and it still took me TEN DAMN YEARS before I could apply those instinctively in a number of ways that I do now and teach.

There is a Pastor I train for free - my goal was to get him to stop being a hard slapper (40 yrs he slaps) I wanted to get him to learn how to be loose and get a reliable whip to spin balls... jury is still out on him for this... but in under a year, he now has very solid footwork... ESPECIALLY to his Wide Forehand.

If it took me ten years to become decent at footwork, I would not expect anyone to get there in 5 years... but it might be a matter of Der_Echte being more of a hard head than the average citizen.

Thanks Der, that all makes good sense - those are all things I am working on with my coach but a completely different thing to put them into practice under the stress of a tough match!

It is always very revealing to see yourself and compare it to how you think you look when playing and accept the reality - then try to change it.

I love the journey and am making improvements in the year I have been back in the game.

 

[Der_Echte]

I am working on with my coach but a completely different thing to put them into practice under the stress of a tough match!

YES. That is a part of the progression. It is simply impractical to improve upon something in training and have it immediately translate to increased performance in matches that count.

That usually takes 6-12 months to take effect. It can get demoralizing if you do not have a decent mindset and acceptance of this reality. Many people are simply IMPATIENT. I really have to work on this with LDM7, because that cat is like a James Bond movie... The World is NOT Enough. That cat wants progress RIGHT DAMN NOW... and in some ways I can help him realize that, but ultimately, performance in matches that really count under pressure, it takes time.

 

[Wrighty67]

YES. That is a part of the progression. It is simply impractical to improve upon something in training and have it immediately translate to increased performance in matches that count.

That usually takes 6-12 months to take effect. It can get demoralizing if you do not have a decent mindset and acceptance of this reality. Many people are simply IMPATIENT. I really have to work on this with LDM7, because that cat is like a James Bond movie... The World is NOT Enough. That cat wants progress RIGHT DAMN NOW... and in some ways I can help him realize that, but ultimately, performance in matches that really count under pressure, it takes time.

Der, may I ask for more insight into your comment on my FH lack of penetration. I feel like I won most of my points in this match (vs all 3 opponents) via my FH loops and being aggressive on this wing. No doubt they have a long way to go but what were you seeing?

 

[Brs]

Hi Wrighty, nice footage.

Your forehand is all driven from your shoulder. The upper arm moves a lot as NL used to say. This has a few negative effects. Your finish is super high and you often can't follow up with a second attack because the recovery is long. Without your body in it the stroke doesn't produce a lot of bat speed for power or spin. That may not be what Der saw, but that's how it looks to me. You are quite consistent which is obviously good and won you many points. But ball quality and recovery time are being sacrificed a bit.

Your backhand serve looks quite good. I question the utility of the punch/hook/whatever serve for you though. That's so hard to do and yours look to be long with very light spin. And it makes the same set of spins as the backhand serve. So it would diversify your serve arsenal more to put time into regular fh pendulum serves to have straight backspin and no-spin, plus side, side-under and side-top in both directions. And maybe a corkscrew spin serve especially for long pips opponents.

Backhand attack is a lot to work on at the same time as these other skills. I'm not sure I would prioritize it yet, but obviously it all depends on what you want to practice. I thought your footwork looked pretty good but your stance is too upright during the points. As is mine, and almost every other adult learner I ever saw. NL would say it doesn't matter, but that was because he had sick feeling and could play great while standing up like a tree. Most of us can't.

If I were you my training plan would involve a lot of fh serve practice, and two point forehand focusing on staying down and turning my body into the strokes. I would not do random or semi-random drills right now, waiting to see that upper arm stay more still on fh loops.

That is only my two cents from someone who made every mistake there is, take it fwiw.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty, nice footage.

Your forehand is all driven from your shoulder. The upper arm moves a lot as NL used to say. This has a few negative effects. Your finish is super high and you often can't follow up with a second attack because the recovery is long. Without your body in it the stroke doesn't produce a lot of bat speed for power or spin. That may not be what Der saw, but that's how it looks to me. You are quite consistent which is obviously good and won you many points. But ball quality and recovery time are being sacrificed a bit.

Your backhand serve looks quite good. I question the utility of the punch/hook/whatever serve for you though. That's so hard to do and yours look to be long with very light spin. And it makes the same set of spins as the backhand serve. So it would diversify your serve arsenal more to put time into regular fh pendulum serves to have straight backspin and no-spin, plus side, side-under and side-top in both directions. And maybe a corkscrew spin serve especially for long pips opponents.

Backhand attack is a lot to work on at the same time as these other skills. I'm not sure I would prioritize it yet, but obviously it all depends on what you want to practice. I thought your footwork looked pretty good but your stance is too upright during the points. As is mine, and almost every other adult learner I ever saw. NL would say it doesn't matter, but that was because he had sick feeling and could play great while standing up like a tree. Most of us can't.

If I were you my training plan would involve a lot of fh serve practice, and two point forehand focusing on staying down and turning my body into the strokes. I would not do random or semi-random drills right now, waiting to see that upper arm stay more still on fh loops.

That is only my two cents from someone who made every mistake there is, take it fwiw.

Hi Brs,

Thanks - great feedback!

That makes sense re my FH as I was struggling to work out the issue aside from the “hook” shape.

Serves - I’m more solid on the BH then the shovel so as you say I may not need both. Reverse pendulum wins me a lot of points when I make good contact but it’s pendulum I need to work on.

BH topspin & open up is actually pretty reasonable in practice but I lack the confidence and habit to use it in tight matches.

I also need to bring in touch (short) and flicks!

 

[NextLevel]

Wrighty,

A lot of my main comments have been made already, but I would start with trying to get you to hit a fullbody stroke in practice. Unfortunately, my former internet coach has removed all his videos from the internet, but I am a believer that taking your most power CIRCULAR shot (circular shot/curved shot creates spin) while trying to not get injured doing it is a good thing for your technique.

The key to more powerful technique is to use more of your BODY to engage more quality in the stroke. Obviously the legs, the core (especially the core), and use those to transmit power to your arms. All good table tennis strokes should make you feel like you are a top, a helicopter, a windmill, a frisbee thrower etc. There is a circular aspect to good TT - because all our joints are round, all our swings have curves.

The biggest reason your strokes lack power is that you mostly use the upper arm and you use it to swing upward, but you don't swing upward and forward, which is what a helicopter motion with your core would enable you to do. You can do both upward and forward (forward OVER the ball)! You get good spin by doing both. That is why I would encourage you try windmill looping within the limits of injury. Remember, power doesn't come from how hard you swing the arm, it comes from how well you can transmit the power from your core into the arm.

Even away from the table, practice golf swings, or even try to make your bath towel whip. Do it in front of a mirror and see what you have to do to get your upper body engaged and not just your arm. Table tennis loops are throwing motions, just like punchs and frisbee tosses. Try to practice tossing a frisbee and whatever toss technique is getting you the most power is likely exactly how you should play your forehand.

All of the above has the caveat that we are adult learners, so we must always prioritize injury prevention. For a video example of windmill looping (more in a smashing context on an easy ball, again with the caveat that I am not asking you to be Zhang Jike), look at how Jike plays this point:

https://youtu.be/7RO2iTW4yN0?t=52

Note the repeated circular throwing motions to play smashes. Practice some of those smashes so you can get a better feel of getting your body to hit the ball hard.

The point of this is not to get you injured - the point of this is to help you see the concept that gets good balls to go through the table. You have to use the body to move the arm and then throw it forward and upward over the ball, Try practicing the topspin smashes to get a good idea for the potential. Start it on easy balls. Do it fairly slowly to get a good feel of how power goes from the body to the arm. Don't try to throw as hard as you can, throw as relaxed as you can with a full body stroke. If you feel like a whip, you have it right. If you feel you are muscling the ball, you have it wrong.

Then take that feeling in the arm, and make it smaller and smaller..

 

[Wrighty67]

Wrighty,

A lot of my main comments have been made already, but I would start with trying to get you to hit a fullbody stroke in practice. Unfortunately, my former internet coach has removed all his videos from the internet, but I am a believer that taking your most power CIRCULAR shot (circular shot/curved shot creates spin) while trying to not get injured doing it is a good thing for your technique.

The key to more powerful technique is to use more of your BODY to engage more quality in the stroke. Obviously the legs, the core (especially the core), and use those to transmit power to your arms. All good table tennis strokes should make you feel like you are a top, a helicopter, a windmill, a frisbee thrower etc. There is a circular aspect to good TT - because all our joints are round, all our swings have curves.

The biggest reason your strokes lack power is that you mostly use the upper arm and you use it to swing upward, but you don't swing upward and forward, which is what a helicopter motion with your core would enable you to do. You can do both upward and forward (forward OVER the ball)! You get good spin by doing both. That is why I would encourage you try windmill looping within the limits of injury. Remember, power doesn't come from how hard you swing the arm, it comes from how well you can transmit the power from your core into the arm.

Even away from the table, practice golf swings, or even try to make your bath towel whip. Do it in front of a mirror and see what you have to do to get your upper body engaged and not just your arm. Table tennis loops are throwing motions, just like punchs and frisbee tosses. Try to practice tossing a frisbee and whatever toss technique is getting you the most power is likely exactly how you should play your forehand.

All of the above has the caveat that we are adult learners, so we must always prioritize injury prevention. For a video example of windmill looping (more in a smashing context on an easy ball, again with the caveat that I am not asking you to be Zhang Jike), look at how Jike plays this point:

https://youtu.be/7RO2iTW4yN0?t=52

Note the repeated circular throwing motions to play smashes. Practice some of those smashes so you can get a better feel of getting your body to hit the ball hard.

The point of this is not to get you injured - the point of this is to help you see the concept that gets good balls to go through the table. You have to use the body to move the arm and then throw it forward and upward over the ball, Try practicing the topspin smashes to get a good idea for the potential. Start it on easy balls. Do it fairly slowly to get a good feel of how power goes from the body to the arm. Don't try to throw as hard as you can, throw as relaxed as you can with a full body stroke. If you feel like a whip, you have it right. If you feel you are muscling the ball, you have it wrong.

Then take that feeling in the arm, and make it smaller and smaller..

Thank you NL, that’s very helpful indeed and I can visualise what you mean clearly.

My only question is how to “contain” this sort of larger, looser swing in terms of compact recovery?

 

[NextLevel]

Thank you NL, that’s very helpful indeed and I can visualise what you mean clearly.

My only question is how to “contain” this sort of larger, looser swing in terms of compact recovery?

Smaller circles and less power. Smaller circles and less power. Getting stronger with the core and legs so you can do more with less. Better timing so that you can throw that power over shorter distances.. But if you don't have the right technique or rather, the right connection between body and arm in the first place, you can't play the shot.

It is a long debate whether it is better to play a good technical shot without recovery vs a compromised shot with easy recovery. I know where I stand on the issue (get the form right first, figure out the recovery later) if asked to choose, but I am not really asking you to do that. I am asking that you learn to engage the body in your stroke. The easiest way to differentiate the level a player is playing at is to see how effectively they use the body to generate their stroke. Even chopblockers/pushblockers use their bodies in subtle ways, if you don't respect the need to use body to block a good loop, you can miss this entirely.

 

[Wrighty67]

Smaller circles and less power. Smaller circles and less power. Getting stronger with the core and legs so you can do more with less. Better timing so that you can throw that power over shorter distances.. But if you don't have the right technique or rather, the right connection between body and arm in the first place, you can't play the shot.

It is a long debate whether it is better to play a good technical shot without recovery vs a compromised shot with easy recovery. I know where I stand on the issue (get the form right first, figure out the recovery later) if asked to choose, but I am not really asking you to do that. I am asking that you learn to engage the body in your stroke. The easiest way to differentiate the level a player is playing at is to see how effectively they use the body to generate their stroke. Even chopblockers/pushblockers use their bodies in subtle ways, if you don't respect the need to use body to block a good loop, you can miss this entirely.

Got it - I’ll work on that. Thanks 🏓👍

 

[NextLevel]

Got it - I’ll work on that. Thanks 🏓👍

Not at all. While that is ZJK-ML an old match, watch any good player using the principle of body (core) and circle (stroke path). No matter what you think of their stroke/level, if they are playing good table tennis, the body is powering the arm to generate speed and you can see it. The other thing I forgot to mention about recovery is that it is also why some players step two feet or more back from the table, so they can play with more power and respond to more power.. You would never throw a racket using the technique you currently do, try to figure out what it takes to throw things far and try to build similar things into your stroke. Then make the range of the motion smaller and smaller - think Bruce Lee, one inch punch - to punch with power over one inch, you use your hips and torso, not your arm. It might feel less powerful to you, but let the ball speed and consistency be the evidence/feedback. You have really excellent touch, so I suspect if you use your core better, your results will get better in relatively short time (6-12 months).