Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[TensorBackhand]

He flat hits the ball and sometimes chops down on it(especially on backhand, sometimes on forehand), but the pace mostly and the consistency are hard to differentiate from topspin (his motions deliberately do not produce topspin) so many players just dump the ball in the net because they are looking for topspin that isn't there or pop the ball up to control his pace. It's like playing against short/medium pips but the opponent is using inverted to produce the shots. A lot of his wins come from the difficulty of staying consistent against him in a rally because you haven't practiced against what he is doing. He isn't invincible, but extremely awkward to play against and a reminder that awkward styles are awkward, no matter what material is used to produce them. I mean, he has beaten a high level player in an unrated matches before (Damien Provost comes to mind) and has quite a few matches on YouTube with the old ball, though his win was at SPIN club and I am not sure if that is still on YouTube.

Here is a very recent video on YouTube.

Well I see this guy performing a flat shot that is producing a dead-ball. That's expected. Like a chop block or a dead-serve, the awkwardness of the ball is a direct result of the player's technique.

What I have advocated in my first post is that LP allows a player to produce topspin from a under-cutting push stroke and that is fundamentally unnatural and unfair. And LP allows a player to produce heavy underspin from a regular topspin stroke hitting over the ball. None of this is due to the technique of the player, but purely enabled by the equipment that doesn't follow the same natural rules as 97% of the other equipment.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Well I see this guy performing a flat shot that is producing a dead-ball. That's expected. Like a chop block or a dead-serve, the awkwardness of the ball is a direct result of the player's technique.

What I have advocated in my first post is that LP allows a player to produce topspin from a under-cutting push stroke and that is fundamentally unnatural and unfair. And LP allows a player to produce heavy underspin from a regular topspin stroke hitting over the ball. None of this is due to the technique of the player, but purely enabled by the equipment that doesn't follow the same natural rules as 97% of the other equipment.

What type of spin is a LP player receiving such that they can produce a topspin ball by pushing it? I used to play with LP's and to produce a topspin ball I would need to play a conventional topspin stroke...but it would only produce a topspin ball if the ball I was receiving was a backspin ball...so that all my topspin stroke was really doing was speeding up (or continuing) the spin I'd been given. If I did a push stroke with my LP's to a topspin ball then I would give the opponent backspin (this is essentially a scaled-back version of chopping), and if I did a push stroke to a backspin ball it would generally create a no-spin ball. None of this was "unnatural", it was entirely what you would expect to happen with a rubber that had very little grip compared to an inverted rubber; the grip was so low that it could only really slow or speed up the spin it was given, depending upon whether my stroke was working with or against the spin.

Maybe you're thinking of the now banned frictionless LP's? These would have been more able to do what you're claiming as they had virtually no interaction with the existing spin at all...but even then this was entirely 'natural' given the properties of the rubber.

 

[AchyGeorge]

Nightmares used to exist, when the special-LP still existed and it was allowed to play with 1 colour where the player could rotate his board. Those were nightmares then. Watching and listening carefully was the message.
Now it's all much easier to play. You could argue that they favoured the 2x inverted players with this...

Haha yes don’t forget these guys would stamp or grunt loudly every shot too, so hearing which rubber they were using was kind of difficult!

 

[Lazer]

How Long Pips Really Work - Greg's Table Tennis Pages

How long pips really work in table tennis.

gregsttpages.com

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Der_Echte]

What type of spin is a LP player receiving such that they can produce a topspin ball by pushing it? I used to play with LP's and to produce a topspin ball I would need to play a conventional topspin stroke...but it would only produce a topspin ball if the ball I was receiving was a backspin ball...so that all my topspin stroke was really doing was speeding up (or continuing) the spin I'd been given. If I did a push stroke with my LP's to a topspin ball then I would give the opponent backspin (this is essentially a scaled-back version of chopping), and if I did a push stroke to a backspin ball it would generally create a no-spin ball. None of this was "unnatural", it was entirely what you would expect to happen with a rubber that had very little grip compared to an inverted rubber; the grip was so low that it could only really slow or speed up the spin it was given, depending upon whether my stroke was working with or against the spin.

Maybe you're thinking of the now banned frictionless LP's? These would have been more able to do what you're claiming as they had virtually no interaction with the existing spin at all...but even then this was entirely 'natural' given the properties of the rubber.

VTT...

Even with current T4 ITTF approved LP one can make a topspin drive vs an underspin ball.

It is more easily done with a fast, stiff blade like BTY series Tamka 5000 blades and an OX LP, like Grass D-Techs.

All that is needed is to strike ball at top of bounce with a very open bat face and firm grip at impact.

This reduces dwell time and maximizes quick rebound and spin continuation.

Result is a medium to medium fast topspin drive... if the player goes down the line short side table or finds the middle, this can be a winner often.

No Crazy Cowboy shyt required... no conventional topspin stroke required. just open bat, punch and firm.

Former frictionless players have been endlessly searching for something that performs like frictionless, but it is impossible... but what is possible is to go fast/stiff on blade, go OX on LP rubber, and adjust technique and tactics some.

 

[Der_Echte]

Waran was my favorite SP when I used to go back and forth. Should probably give it a go again sometime.

Maybe I should have also discussed WHY I can play SP now...

My former BH way to strike was more bat closed swing upwards more...

Now, my BH swing plane is more open bat swing forward... which is exactly what is needed for a BH hit or loop drive.

That makes life much easier to play SP.

 

[Der_Echte]

Please show me a video of Dewit performing a drive/topspin motion (like DYP) that produces underspin with inverted rubber.

Frankly I don't believe your statement. But if you show me the evidence, then I will believe it.

I am happy you want to have others show evidence to support the assertions - it is the correct way IMO.

I did post that evidence in the form of a vid of R. Dewitt vs that 2400 player... Richard numerous times played a stroke that a reasonable person would read as a topspin drive... or something between a medium loop at slower speed and a topspin drive... but the ball had way less spin than it looked... plus he slowed the ball down.

Slowing ball down and taking away spin really messes with the opponent's time clock in their mind and messes with their mind in general.

I get it that you would be reluctant to believe someone could play that way... especially at a high level and look totally un-athletic while doing it... but that is Richard to a T.

I have faced him twice in sanctioned tourneys and I have seen and felt firsthand what he does.

Here is the vid again. Watch throughout the match how he deadens the ball frequently... and also changes pace... he can go slow near dead and faster and dead too. Rich prefers to make underspin look dead, but he does it also on a topspin looking shot.

 

[Der_Echte]

Another vid of Rich "junking it up" with hiz inverted rubbers...

Watch how many times in the match his opponent looks at his rubber after a miss to wonder what happened or if it was possible...

 

[Der_Echte]

At 24:45 of the vid I posted in last post above... right at a crucial moment in the match with score 2 games each, Rich does what looks like a strong topspin from a little off the table... opponent thinks ball is loaded with spin, but it is very light... opponent tries to counter the ball and it doesn't even reach the net.

 

[Der_Echte]

And to anyone in the internet TT forum community who would accuse Rich of applying Slick 50 (a very slippery oil additive) to hiz rubberz... I have personally examined his rubbers and they are perfectly in order... consistent and not slippery.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Well you avoided my question and answered a completely different question. So I have drawn my conclusions.

 

[NextLevel]

Well I see this guy performing a flat shot that is producing a dead-ball. That's expected. Like a chop block or a dead-serve, the awkwardness of the ball is a direct result of the player's technique.

What I have advocated in my first post is that LP allows a player to produce topspin from a under-cutting push stroke and that is fundamentally unnatural and unfair. And LP allows a player to produce heavy underspin from a regular topspin stroke hitting over the ball. None of this is due to the technique of the player, but purely enabled by the equipment that doesn't follow the same natural rules as 97% of the other equipment.

I don't think that what you are saying is true. The material doesn't change the spin, the lack of grip allows the rotation to continue and also makes it react less to spin. Long pips rarely produce spin that is not already on the ball and often kill spin It is their ability to kill spin, similar to what DeWitt is doing with his technique that is key. Dewitt is using pips strokes with inverted rubbers, sometimes with deceptive follow throughs.

In other words, your claiming that the result isn't natural doesn't mean the result isn't natural. It is entirely natural once you understand the equipment. In fact, something similar happens when I play people who use tacky rubbers and I don't check before the match starts.

 

[NextLevel]

Well you avoided my question and answered a completely different question. So I have drawn my conclusions.

He did not, he answered your question perfectly. He pointed to a specific point in the video that illustrated Dewitt playing a topspin looking stroke which his opponent countered into the bottom of the net. Respond to that specific assertion or say you don't agree with what he presented, but he very directly answered your question by referring to 24:45 in the match vs Dong Li.

 

[blahness]

Well you avoided my question and answered a completely different question. So I have drawn my conclusions.

So he is just doing fake opening loops (not even that fake tbh) against underspin balls - there is no real acceleration and he doesnt even disguise the followthrough that much. Those are pretty much all just open angle lifts. Against topspin he is actually punching the ball with bat movement going to the side to improve control (which I use as well) - which again deadens the ball. This is the Hao Shuai BH blocking technique - if you watch him block against CNT all of them hate playing against him because of this level of disgusting variation. But Hao Shuai actually can create heavy topspin with his blocks as he chooses so it's even worse.

Tbh his opponent in the video could have won easily if he stuck to his strats (serve fast long with huge spin variation + loop the return with conviction) instead of pushing and lobbing those deadballs like a scaredy cat and allowing him to control the point and angles. He even pushed all those long serves (wtf was he thinking?) which is a huge sin at this level of play.

You can do all the same things too, and the even higher level version of these strokes disguise the followthrough so that the dead and heavy topspin version looks almost the same. My practice partner does this even more disgusting with his inverted side - when he does the opening 'loop' it can be so dead that when you block it with an open bat angle it doesnt even reach the net. Other times he loads it up with heavy topspin with a very similar movement, so it is really hard to deal with it. If you try to be consistent and get tentative, the next ball will just be an easy loopkill from him.

It's nasty af - this is why Im always looking to be able to produce 2 completely different spins from a similar looking stroke.

The real benefit of pips/anti is that when doing junk like this they can actually rely on the spin insensitivity of the rubber to maintain consistency. Whereas for inverted rubber users like us, you better be damn precise on the spin reads and the contacts otherwise the consistency will fly out of the window. So for eg now I am classifying all incoming balls in terms of their spin, there are higher percentage ways of contacting balls with various spins for all types of techniques. There are 7 in total:

1) pendulum sideunder
2) pendulum sidetop
3) reverse pendulum sideunder
4) reverse pendulum sidetop
5) no spin
6) straight heavy backspin
7) straight topspin

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Wow! This thread has entered into its 20th page. This thread should have ended with Pips are GHEY post. Period.

 

[turbozed]

He won't go far with the terrible footwork and weak FH that he has. A lot of it is just bullying the unfamiliarity of players on the tour with anti. It's just very annoying to see good players like Gauzy (who took LJK to 5th set decider) losing to guys like him who has significant technical weaknesses.

This is why I said, I'm still waiting for a twiddling LP/inverted penholder with massive RSM or Xu Xin like FH loopkill on the tour. The style is so strong that it allowed some amateur players to upset national team members here. The inverted side will be killing all long balls and LPs used to push short serves that previously can't really be received short (extreme sidetopspin serves), and for extra variation in receive + slowing down the game through chopblocks etc... I am not exactly sure why no pro is intentionally training like this.

Imo penholders went the wrong direction with all of them trying to train RPB like crazy. Sorry but it's really damn hard to best shakehand players with topspin rallying. This is why there's only 1 Wang Hao and 1 Felix Lebrun. RPB also forces them to play in the exact way that shakehanders like - ie go into topspin rally mode from the get go.

This dude isn't a penholder but saw this video today and was reminded of your comment about LP player with FH loopkill ability.

 

[Lazer]

This dude isn't a penholder but saw this video today and was reminded of your comment about LP player with FH loopkill ability.

If there is a return on that ball....

Cheers
L-zr

 

[blahness]

This dude isn't a penholder but saw this video today and was reminded of your comment about LP player with FH loopkill ability.

Lol tbh guy is just lucky he didnt encounter any good blockers with that stroke.

Imo penholders have significant advantages in the combo space because they can use both TPB and RPB for max confusion when you use different types of rubbers. Also the FH serves, short game and loopkills with penhold are much stronger than the shakehand equivalent typically.

 

[piligrim]

Penholders should be banned

 

[SleepyMaster]

I don’t mind pips at all, actually I believe that player should practice against pips players more, to make ball feeling better overall.

The only thing I dislike it’s arrogant, without any proper technique pips players, that starting to giving me technical advices how my stroke should look like, after one ball that I missed. When in fact, I know they have no clue or technique level to even play with inverted. But that’s happens very rarely, and more person dependent. Pips here are the least of issue 🙂