Why do people say LP's should be banned?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Ah, it's actually all quite simple. And much of what is written here does not matter at all. The people who reach for technical equipment do so in 98% of cases because they cannot execute stipulated strokes properly and thereby score their intended points.

Since I own a shop, a lot of people move from inverted for reason more than your 2%/other than "cannot execute stipulated strokes properly".

where did you pull that 98% number out of?
is this a Greek thing?

 

[Metaxa]

gotta ask where he suck that 98% out of (hahaha)

He then belongs to that 2% lol.

 

[Der_Echte]

Since I own a shop, a lot of people move from inverted for reason more than your 2%/other than "cannot execute stipulated strokes properly".

where did you pull that 98% number out of?
is this a Greek thing?

Short articulation about me and Short Pips as a lifelong 2x inverted offensive player.

When I got my start in Korea for TT, after year one I slapped on sum cheap Chinese pips on BH and gave it a go at the club in free play... not even 5 minutes expired before I ripped those SP off my BH and tossed it in the trash wishing I could use a flame thrower to totally destroy any evidence I even TRIED to use SP.

Now in 2024, on a whim I got sum cheep Chinese SP (Gambler SP) and tried it out in free play... after two shots, I discovered I could open with consistency, receive serves, hit, and spin as well... but not as heavy as inverted.
This weak, LDM7 got sum SP to try (Spinlord Warran III) for his BH, he could spin too (yes not as much as inverted) and get me to block so he could have options on next ball... the exact purpose of a Bh opener.

I took his bat and for 10 shots in a row I was a boss of BH on every possible shot. I promptly ordered 4 sheets of Warran III and I will further goof off with them. I believe that with just one week using them, I could play my level.

Advantage of SP is that I can make all the shots I do with inverted, it is MORE controllable on some of the shots (serve receive, block vs spin and pace and hit through spin) and a little less controllable (spin shots with a bigger impact or swing)... but all in all I can play right away with them and be even more lethal in some rallies.

SP gunna be sum big fun in the next few months.

Those are my trouble making reasons for trying SP on my BH... I already chop with LP to offensive players to train them vs choppers.

 

[Metaxa]

Since I own a shop, a lot of people move from inverted for reason more than your 2%/other than "cannot execute stipulated strokes properly".

where did you pull that 98% number out of?
is this a Greek thing?

98% do it because they do not master their strokes. Those 2% are as Piligrim mentioned, because they like it but you can never know that before you have used them. But he apparently masters all strokes with inverted rubbers and with pips, so no problem.
No idea here in Greece, I do see quite a few older players using technical equipment to make life difficult for others but still don't notice a single youth or senior player in my current club. I am also sure that neither coach would recommend it, rather not even allow it and then I think this is because their good attacking abilities they have themselves and want to transfer this to the youth here.

 

[NextLevel]

Short articulation about me and Short Pips as a lifelong 2x inverted offensive player.

When I got my start in Korea for TT, after year one I slapped on sum cheap Chinese pips on BH and gave it a go at the club in free play... not even 5 minutes expired before I ripped those SP off my BH and tossed it in the trash wishing I could use a flame thrower to totally destroy any evidence I even TRIED to use SP.

Now in 2024, on a whim I got sum cheep Chinese SP (Gambler SP) and tried it out in free play... after two shots, I discovered I could open with consistency, receive serves, hit, and spin as well... but not as heavy as inverted.
This weak, LDM7 got sum SP to try (Spinlord Warran III) for his BH, he could spin too (yes not as much as inverted) and get me to block so he could have options on next ball... the exact purpose of a Bh opener.

I took his bat and for 10 shots in a row I was a boss of BH on every possible shot. I promptly ordered 4 sheets of Warran III and I will further goof off with them. I believe that with just one week using them, I could play my level.

Advantage of SP is that I can make all the shots I do with inverted, it is MORE controllable on some of the shots (serve receive, block vs spin and pace and hit through spin) and a little less controllable (spin shots with a bigger impact or swing)... but all in all I can play right away with them and be even more lethal in some rallies.

SP gunna be sum big fun in the next few months.

Those are my trouble making reasons for trying SP on my BH... I already chop with LP to offensive players to train them vs choppers.

Waran was my favorite SP when I used to go back and forth. Should probably give it a go again sometime.

 

[AchyGeorge]

There is nothing wrong with playing pips.

Personally, I quite enjoy the challenge of playing someone that has a backhand long pip chopping game combined with dangerous forehand attack.
Having been recently introduced to Deng Yaping I found the following video. What a beast. Huge respect.
….
When I play, I want the match to involve some amount of vigorous play from both sides; that makes for an interesting match, both for players and spectators. I enjoy a mix of fast action …

I know the conversation has moved along, and I realise that Deng Yaping is far from representative of all or even most lp players, but just in case anyone thinks her backhand game was all about that lp chop block, this is what should expect to happen if you played any kind of Topspin ball into her backhand !

 

[TensorBackhand]

I know the conversation has moved along, and I realise that Deng Yaping is far from representative of all or even most lp players, but just in case anyone thinks her backhand game was all about that lp chop block, this is what should expect to happen if you played any kind of Topspin ball into her backhand !

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

 

[blahness]

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

it will be close to dead and sometimes even with underspin, yes... my practice partner gives me these sorts of balls all the time lol. basically my antidote to these balls is to adopt the Sun Yingsha method of just opening the racket angle and driving them back early. So if you only know how to slow loop underspin at late timing you are pretty much toast against these players.

 

[AchyGeorge]

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

And if it’s near her crossover point she can choose to drive fh inverted or bh lp. Nightmare to play against!

 

[Der_Echte]

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

Ban the Damned LPs !!! Drats, LP hit got me again !!

FYI, that R. Dewit dude with 2X inverted does those weird no spin underspin shots too. maybe we can ban him too.

Wait a minute, @UpSideDownCarl will tell you there has been 5x efforts per year the last several decades to do exactly that !

 

[Der_Echte]

it will be close to dead and sometimes even with underspin, yes... my practice partner gives me these sorts of balls all the time lol. basically my antidote to these balls is to adopt the Sun Yingsha method of just opening the racket angle and driving them back early. So if you only know how to slow loop underspin at late timing you are pretty much toast against these players.

This is a good post causing people to examine their tools to use to develop the opening or response and win the point.

 

[blahness]

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

Wait till you play with those chinese LP/inverted penholders (there's quite a few here). When you give them balls to the BH it could be:
a) pivot inverted FH loop
b) inverted TPB block (btw includes punch block, short block, fade blocks, sidespin block and chopblock)
c) twiddled TPB LP chopblocks or hit
d) RPB LP hit and RPB chopblock


And you have to react in a split second to give them a good enough response to what they ultimately decide to do. If your response is not good enough, sorry but you're gonna have to deal with the FH inverted loopkill which is usually gg...

 

[TensorBackhand]

So why don't we see players like DYP anymore? I'm pretty sure her bh would give problems to most top players.

I only see LP blocks and choppers. LP may be annoying, but at least you have time to process against choppers. But if the opponent is actively driving at you with LP, that seems like a nightmare. I will probably switch to this style one day when I feel too old.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Ban the Damned LPs !!! Drats, LP hit got me again !!

FYI, that R. Dewit dude with 2X inverted does those weird no spin underspin shots too. maybe we can ban him too.

Wait a minute, @UpSideDownCarl will tell you there has been 5x efforts per year the last several decades to do exactly that !

Please show me a video of Dewit performing a drive/topspin motion (like DYP) that produces underspin with inverted rubber.

Frankly I don't believe your statement. But if you show me the evidence, then I will believe it.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Wait till you play with those chinese LP/inverted penholders (there's quite a few here). When you give them balls to the BH it could be:
a) pivot inverted FH loop
b) inverted TPB block (btw includes punch block, short block, fade blocks, sidespin block and chopblock)
c) twiddled TPB LP chopblocks or hit
d) RPB LP hit and RPB chopblock


And you have to react in a split second to give them a good enough response to what they ultimately decide to do. If your response is not good enough, sorry but you're gonna have to deal with the FH inverted loopkill which is usually gg...

This is a good idea for a fun little setup to do as well. If somebody could perfect this style, it may actually be the ultimate style: Being able to do offensive looping and LP jamming from the same wing. You opponent will never know what to expect.

I know Kojima has inverted on his BH, but he never does RPB.

Why haven't we seen this type of penhold LP/RPB style in the pro ranks? Is it just too much technique for 1 person to learn

 

[TensorBackhand]

I'm also curious, what would happen if they put a regular sponge (like H3 sponge) on a LP topsheet? Would you be able to block and drive with that? or does it make it uncontrollable?

 

[Peter93]

So I see DYP driving with her bh. If this is LP, then her fast drive would produce underspin? That seems maddening to deal with

It's closer to dead/light topspin. She used 755 which is grippy enough to impart its own spin.

Please show me a video of Dewit performing a drive/topspin motion (like DYP) that produces underspin with inverted rubber.

Frankly I don't believe your statement. But if you show me the evidence, then I will believe it.

The reason Rich can do this (as someone who has played against him) is because his Mark V is worn to hell. It's almost anti-like. They are completely dead, which is why he hits the ball the racket almost completely open and it dives after hitting the table.

So why don't we see players like DYP anymore? I'm pretty sure her bh would give problems to most top players.

I only see LP blocks and choppers. LP may be annoying, but at least you have time to process against choppers. But if the opponent is actively driving at you with LP, that seems like a nightmare. I will probably switch to this style one day when I feel too old.

Well for one, there's Yang Xiaoxin. She's the highest ranked long pips player in the world, and her game is probably the closest to Deng's in terms of variety of shots and style she employs to win points. He Zhuojia is similar, but she doesn't block and chop block as much as Yang does.

And the reason you don't see long pips players like that is simply because long pips are not as effective with the larger and now plastic ball. Again, since 2000 you've had the aspect ratio and pimple density rule, the move to the 40mm ball and then the switch to plastic 40+. The amount of spin in the game has been reduced drastically, I'd also add that playing offensively with long pips is difficult because they are so slow, and with the game being slowed down from the larger ball, this would also be detrimental to trying to finish off points.

This is a good idea for a fun little setup to do as well. If somebody could perfect this style, it may actually be the ultimate style: Being able to do offensive looping and LP jamming from the same wing. You opponent will never know what to expect.

I know Kojima has inverted on his BH, but he never does RPB.

Why haven't we seen this type of penhold LP/RPB style in the pro ranks? Is it just too much technique for 1 person to learn

Chai Po Wa managed to get to 4 in the world playing like this.

 

[NextLevel]

It's closer to dead/light topspin. She used 755 which is grippy enough to impart its own spin.


The reason Rich can do this (as someone who has played against him) is because his Mark V is worn to hell. It's almost anti-like. They are completely dead, which is why he hits the ball the racket almost completely open and it dives after hitting the table.


Well for one, there's Yang Xiaoxin. She's the highest ranked long pips player in the world, and her game is probably the closest to Deng's in terms of variety of shots and style she employs to win points. He Zhuojia is similar, but she doesn't block and chop block as much as Yang does.

And the reason you don't see long pips players like that is simply because long pips are not as effective with the larger and now plastic ball. Again, since 2000 you've had the aspect ratio and pimple density rule, the move to the 40mm ball and then the switch to plastic 40+. The amount of spin in the game has been reduced drastically, I'd also add that playing offensively with long pips is difficult because they are so slow, and with the game being slowed down from the larger ball, this would also be detrimental to trying to finish off points.



Chai Po Wa managed to get to 4 in the world playing like this.

The deadness of DeWitt's rubbers is overstated. He has looped to me before and I have dumped his backspin serves into the net as well. While he does play a bit better as his rubbers get worn, it is never really to the point of being anti. His friend, Larry Bavly, has pointed out that he can play the same game with Tenergy 05 (they confirmed this with a friendly match), just not as proficiently.

 

[Metaxa]

And if it’s near her crossover point she can choose to drive fh inverted or bh lp. Nightmare to play against!

Nightmares used to exist, when the special-LP still existed and it was allowed to play with 1 colour where the player could rotate his board. Those were nightmares then. Watching and listening carefully was the message.
Now it's all much easier to play. You could argue that they favoured the 2x inverted players with this...

 

[NextLevel]

Please show me a video of Dewit performing a drive/topspin motion (like DYP) that produces underspin with inverted rubber.

Frankly I don't believe your statement. But if you show me the evidence, then I will believe it.

He flat hits the ball and sometimes chops down on it(especially on backhand, sometimes on forehand), but the pace mostly and the consistency are hard to differentiate from topspin (his motions deliberately do not produce topspin) so many players just dump the ball in the net because they are looking for topspin that isn't there or pop the ball up to control his pace. It's like playing against short/medium pips but the opponent is using inverted to produce the shots. A lot of his wins come from the difficulty of staying consistent against him in a rally because you haven't practiced against what he is doing. He isn't invincible, but extremely awkward to play against and a reminder that awkward styles are awkward, no matter what material is used to produce them. I mean, he has beaten a high level player in an unrated matches before (Damien Provost comes to mind) and has quite a few matches on YouTube with the old ball, though his win was at SPIN club and I am not sure if that is still on YouTube.

Here is a very recent video on YouTube.