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Little time playing, Long time watching. Hard time understanding?
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Is ma long the GOAT ?
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I agree with this post. And I never said anything that I feel contradicts the main points about what happened to ML.
WH did the same thing to ML in 2011.
My point is, the short game frustrated ML and when he fell behind the short game frustrated him enough that he fell apart. Against everyone else he looked invincible.
BTW: I think, in games 4-5 WH was trying to win without the help of the short game. But ML was too good for him to win without taking away the power of the opening attack and while letting ML dig into the longer rallies.
So in the 6th game WH went back to the short game and the Jedi Mind Tricks and ML went back to falling apart.
But he did look awesome in games 4 and 5.
And all of what I am saying is from memory. I have not watched that match in at least 4 years. But I can break it down. And I will be able to show point by point what I am talking about when I can sit down with the footage.
BTW: NL’s point that if ML had a well developed banana back then, none of WH’s tactics would have worked on ML is exactly right also.
But I think ML found another answer to this. Which I do think goes to how dedicated ML is. And he is a truly great player. So I am definitely not saying anything that changes that.
To me, that he faced some of the technical details that haunted him early and found answers that work for him shows some of what makes him great.
But it doesn’t change that ML didn’t simply fall apart. That an opponent who knew how to exploit his weaknesses and held them back for the big stages, did help lead him to fall apart. And would have, over and over if he did not come up with sufficient answers.
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This thread could use a liberal shake or two from the travel sized bottle of Anti Monkey Butt... 
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RTK: are you saying that NL did not state ML is best ever? He did. He did many times. He has never argued ML is not. He is saying there are things that people CAN question.
Are you saying I didn’t say ML is best ever? I did too.
You are arguing with people without even knowing what they said. As shown by your misrepresentation of what NL was saying.
You have to understand a comment to debate in good faith. And you are not understanding many of the posts you have attacked.
Are you saying I didn’t say ML is best ever? I did too.
You are arguing with people without even knowing what they said. As shown by your misrepresentation of what NL was saying.
You have to understand a comment to debate in good faith. And you are not understanding many of the posts you have attacked.
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Zeio already posted ML's recap on WTTC 2013 SF as a proof of ML's "mental weakness". And what ML said, he felt negative in the match especially when he was trailing and he felt he had to accept fate. He didn't think he would win even if he could make to the decider.
2013 China National Games SF was also between ML and WH, ML 4-2 WH (10:12, 11:4, 11:13, 11:7, 11:9, 11:7). When ML led in first and third set, it was WH who won at last. ML said in the post match interview, he told himself that he could fight back as long as he kept to his technical/tactical plan. He knew he could fight back when he was down in the sixth set.
http://sports.sohu.com/20130909/n386234822.shtml
Is it just because WH did not care about National Games so he dropped the match, or WH's form too bad or he forgot his effective tactics? Or because ML suddenly fixed his mental weakness or because he had a provincial coach then he gained tricks? Why isn't it the different attitude that makes difference? Being negative does no good to help one find solutions when in trouble. No good solutions, more negative attitude. And attitude can affect performance. Why ML was not always positive? Better performance from the opponent, techniques/tactics not well chosen, nightmares of past defeats, or just being a human not in his day?
2013 China National Games SF was also between ML and WH, ML 4-2 WH (10:12, 11:4, 11:13, 11:7, 11:9, 11:7). When ML led in first and third set, it was WH who won at last. ML said in the post match interview, he told himself that he could fight back as long as he kept to his technical/tactical plan. He knew he could fight back when he was down in the sixth set.
http://sports.sohu.com/20130909/n386234822.shtml
Is it just because WH did not care about National Games so he dropped the match, or WH's form too bad or he forgot his effective tactics? Or because ML suddenly fixed his mental weakness or because he had a provincial coach then he gained tricks? Why isn't it the different attitude that makes difference? Being negative does no good to help one find solutions when in trouble. No good solutions, more negative attitude. And attitude can affect performance. Why ML was not always positive? Better performance from the opponent, techniques/tactics not well chosen, nightmares of past defeats, or just being a human not in his day?
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Sure, NL thinks ML is the best ever but then he goes on about singling out things that could question that title, and that's fine. But I don't agree with those points being of the same value (impact) as he does. That's where we "clash". My point, and I seem to be alone in this, is that no one but Ma Long can be considered the GOAT. Then people start "building cases" that the cell era had stronger players so Ma Longs dominance 2019 should't be estimated as highly. I get it, your destiny is also shaped by adversity and the quality of opponents you face. But believe this, the TT world has gotten more even. Chinese players get beat by other nations every tournament, it's not a sensation. So losing a set to Calderano or Falck isn't something that should be seen as a weakness.
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WH's recap after 2013 WTTC SF
http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2013/0520/100741.html
"I am very satisfied with my performance at this moment and at this stage. I was quite satisfied beating YA in the morning. I had nothing to lose at the match in the evening (the match with ML)." When asked if his style restricts ML's style after his third time beating ML in WTTC SF, WH said, "Not really. Before 2012 OG, I lost many times to ML, maybe 7-8 out of 10. I can only say I had a better mindset than ML this time.”
WH didn't take post match interview after 2013 National Games.
In general, putting oneself at a lower position regardless of the level of the opponent and fighting every point do good. Of course momentum will not always on one side of the table and that's the game to break the opponent's momentum and gain momentum of oneself.
http://www.ctta.cn/xwzx/ppxw/2013/0520/100741.html
"I am very satisfied with my performance at this moment and at this stage. I was quite satisfied beating YA in the morning. I had nothing to lose at the match in the evening (the match with ML)." When asked if his style restricts ML's style after his third time beating ML in WTTC SF, WH said, "Not really. Before 2012 OG, I lost many times to ML, maybe 7-8 out of 10. I can only say I had a better mindset than ML this time.”
WH didn't take post match interview after 2013 National Games.
In general, putting oneself at a lower position regardless of the level of the opponent and fighting every point do good. Of course momentum will not always on one side of the table and that's the game to break the opponent's momentum and gain momentum of oneself.
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I don't think anyone said losing a game to Calderano or Falck should be seen as a weakness. The bigger issue is whether there is any other player who is also dominating the era and whether that play is from ML's generation. Like in 2011, Ma Long was dominating and ZJK was coming second just about every time so you know they were both dominating. So you could see two great players battling. Wang Hao had already proved himself but you could see the same in Wang Hao making it deep into events.
Today we have Fan Zhendong and Xu Xin. Xu Xin couldn't adapt to plastic and Fan is from the next gen and only Fan had anything close to the kind of consistency we are talking about though he seems to have LJK as real kryptonite now.
That is why I respect what ML did in 2010 to 2013 more than I respect the current WTTC results though 2017 was impressive as well to me. But I am probably alone in that regard. I don't think those SF losses are a big deal. But I can see why someone might look back and refuse to agree if they weight those losses a lot.
For me it is like Djokovic, Nadal, the rivalry makes each other greater. Some people find Federer impressive because he was beating everyone when there were no other great players but I am more amazed by the fact he can still be relevant when such great players like Djokovic and Nadal are still going. And I think Djokovic for dominating in an era with great players deserves my vote but if someone says Federer I can see why.
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This. ML fell apart because of WH's short game and tactics.
Actually ML and WH met in 2013 National Games semi-finals few months later. Would be fun to compare both matches.
About the ball change being an advantage for ML, I don't have sufficient knowledge to analyze all the changes induced by the poly ball. I just remember ZJK won the 2014 World Cup by the closest of margins and had the upper-hand in next few matches. If I remember correctly, ML won 2015 German Open but ZJK clearly had the advantage and seemed to slow down after leading 3-1. I can also recall ML having troubles with too many ball changes. But this doesn't stand for any demonstration.
About the field being weaker now, this I could agree with. His path at 2019 WTTC may seem "easy" but it's not ML's fault if FZD lost to LJK and if XX couldn't stand his ground against Gauzy (who played superbly tho). Don't forget ML makes it look easy too.
In the end, if I had to choose the best player in his prime, I would pick ML. He has been so dominant since 2009-2010 even when WH and ZJK were at their prime.
But having the best abilities doesn't guarantee a 100% winning ratio as a few other players like ZJK, WH, WLQ and maybe others at their prime come really close to ML's prime level.
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One of the unstated differences is that in the National Games, players get team coaches. So the mental game is a big deal but not as big as in ITTF events.
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It might be weird but I can understand RTK's annoyance as an ML fan. How can anyone deny ML after all the titles and all the years people refused to give him his due?
In my mind, it all depends on the definition of GOAT but to be honest even with the lack of competition today, my vote goes to ML and it is not even close. But of course if someone has someone else, good for them. And if an ML fan wants to pretend there is absolutely no reason to think ML is benefitting from a weaker period in getting so many titles, I would point to analogies in other sports. Again look at Steffi Graf or Serena, both great players with lots of titles. But Graf would not have won so many titles if Seles wasn't stabbed. So should I give the greatest to Sere a just because of titles? No, because all her top competitors retired and no one stepped up. Now the eye test works for me but that is my view, I can understand if someone else goes in another direction.
It is just good IMO even when you know or feel you are right to know that something like GOAT will leave a few people with different opinions. No need to go around acting like an evangelist or a Spanish inquisitor. Everyone will have their own opinion.
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Rain, I thought you should have understood the working concept here on TTD by now.
Who cares what pros/(CNT) coaches say or the players admit. TTD members have different level of understanding, subtle but insightful, and they all have been working hard to establish a platform of their own “knowledge” here. Don’t beat yourself up trying to change it. With your knowledge, you deserve better and will be treated much more respectfully in another forums where people value the FACT
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Rain, I thought you should have understood the working concept here on TTD by now.
Who cares what pros/(CNT) coaches say or the players admit. TTD members have different level of understanding, subtle but insightful, and they all have been working hard to establish a platform of their own “knowledge” here. Don’t beat yourself up trying to change it. With your knowledge, you deserve better and will be treated much more respectfully in another forums where people value the FACT
I'd say many TTD members also appreciate Rain's contribution. I am among them so please don't ask her to go away.
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It is so funny the original poster with only 1 post under his bell causes so much havoc in this post then never seen him come back.
NL: ML is GOAT but ... more like GOHT
Ttmonster: ML is GOHT
Suds79: Nobody is GOAT
Fruitloop: ML is no doubt the GOAT
RTK: ML is GOAT because
Rain: ML is GOAT based on ...
AKB5: ML is GOAT
Darucla: ML is GOAT
Richie: ML possibly is the GOAT
Unusualsuspect: ML is GOAT because..
ouchouch: ML is GOAT because I am a fan
UpsidedownCarl: Not sure who is GOAT
Lula: not sure who is..
Aerial: ML is GOAT, period.
Ping: ZJK is GOAT no but because I am ZJK fan.
Zeio: ZJK is GOAT?
Drunix80: ML is GOAT because...
Nofootwork: ML is GOAT
Takkyu_wa_inochi: ML is GOAT ?
Musa: ML is GOAT
Yoass PhD: No GOAT with some illogical explanations and consider the rest are inferior to him if they don't agree with him lol.
Trismegistus: ML is likely the GOAT..
Der_Echte: Mark Flores is the GOAT
Bricephan: ML is the GOAT
ininam: ML is the GOAT
Yogi-bear: only GOHT
passifid: ML, JW, Barna, FZD?
ttchats: JW is the GOAT
BRS: none is...
Luke James: ???
Tropical: ML is GOAT based on TTD members' analysis and possible voting outcome.
There are total 31 TTD members join this discussion.
No GOAT: 3 (9.6%)
Not sure who is: 5 (16%)
ZJK is GOAT: 2 (6.5%)
JW is the GOAT: 1 (3.2%)
Only GOHT: 3 (9.6%)
ML is GOAT: 17 (54.8%)
And the winner is … Ma Long.
NL: ML is GOAT but ... more like GOHT
Ttmonster: ML is GOHT
Suds79: Nobody is GOAT
Fruitloop: ML is no doubt the GOAT
RTK: ML is GOAT because
Rain: ML is GOAT based on ...
AKB5: ML is GOAT
Darucla: ML is GOAT
Richie: ML possibly is the GOAT
Unusualsuspect: ML is GOAT because..
ouchouch: ML is GOAT because I am a fan
UpsidedownCarl: Not sure who is GOAT
Lula: not sure who is..
Aerial: ML is GOAT, period.
Ping: ZJK is GOAT no but because I am ZJK fan.
Zeio: ZJK is GOAT?
Drunix80: ML is GOAT because...
Nofootwork: ML is GOAT
Takkyu_wa_inochi: ML is GOAT ?
Musa: ML is GOAT
Yoass PhD: No GOAT with some illogical explanations and consider the rest are inferior to him if they don't agree with him lol.
Trismegistus: ML is likely the GOAT..
Der_Echte: Mark Flores is the GOAT
Bricephan: ML is the GOAT
ininam: ML is the GOAT
Yogi-bear: only GOHT
passifid: ML, JW, Barna, FZD?
ttchats: JW is the GOAT
BRS: none is...
Luke James: ???
Tropical: ML is GOAT based on TTD members' analysis and possible voting outcome.
There are total 31 TTD members join this discussion.
No GOAT: 3 (9.6%)
Not sure who is: 5 (16%)
ZJK is GOAT: 2 (6.5%)
JW is the GOAT: 1 (3.2%)
Only GOHT: 3 (9.6%)
ML is GOAT: 17 (54.8%)
And the winner is … Ma Long.
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Find me a post where I said I was not sure.
How many different times did I say ML is the best ever? I did not use the term GOAT because I don't like the term. But what does "best ever mean?" Find me a post where I say something different than that if I say what I think about where ML stands.
But taking a vote count still gets you what Yoass was talking about.
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Our other Swedish friend so loved Strong Bad...
… so right now is a great time for Strong man to make a comeback...
… he leaves a voicemail on Marzipan's answering machine at 0:47
Strong Bad sez he is GOAT FACE. Signs of by saying this is Strong Bad and you are ugly.
… so right now is a great time for Strong man to make a comeback...
… he leaves a voicemail on Marzipan's answering machine at 0:47
Strong Bad sez he is GOAT FACE. Signs of by saying this is Strong Bad and you are ugly.
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Thanks for recognizing my annoyance (no irony) I re-watched the 2013 National games between WH and ML yesterday and ML acted very differently compared to WTTC 2013. Confident, positive body language and attitude, all in all more free flowing the way we've gotten used to see him. But that bh back in 2013, honestly it wasn't good! Very shaky. He's really improved it enormously.
I re-watched the 2013 National games between WH and ML yesterday and ML acted very differently compared to WTTC 2013. Confident, positive body language and attitude, all in all more free flowing the way we've gotten used to see him. But that bh back in 2013, honestly it wasn't good! Very shaky. He's really improved it enormously.
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I guess you are not sure because you didn't specifically answer yes,no on the OP but saying something different. If "best ever" same as GOAT then the vote outcome on ML is GOAT will increases to 58%.
Taking a vote is my opinion just like someone doesn't like it is entitled to his/her own opinion.
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Fallacy: Loaded question.
Fallacy: Ad hominem.
Fallacy: Sample size. Would you say 31 is a sufficient quorum to decide this for the entirety of mankind for all of history - past, present and future (the "AT" in "GOAT")?
Fallacy: Ad populum. If I don't like spinach, 16 people expressing their opinion that spinach is the VOAT (for them) won't make me like it any more. Votes don't turn propositions into true ones.
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