China Open 2017

[Greco]

Incredible match, i wanted Timo to win, but i expected a win from Harimoto, he was playing so well on the last matches
(that 4-0 against Niwa! that was actually a surprise to me. What happened there? Did anyone could see that match?).
In fact, it was an amazing start from Harimoto, he attacked every ball, he was completely overpowering Timo.

In the last matches it seemed like he had almost no weak points in his game, you know, good serves, attacks, he has no problem attacking very spinny balls and he's one of the best at the forehand flick, excellent placement, etc.. but his weakness was his mind, and i think it's natural, he's only 13.

My respects for Timo, i think no one (except the chinese) could've won in a better way, and it was not just due to Timo playing skills, but due to his intelligence in the game.
I hope he can win against Dima, but it's very difficult.

 

[Badger]

"Boll was tchoing louder in order to compete better as well, which I don't understand why more players do not get it that this is what they have to do. If Vladi had thrown in a few more tchos in his match, he would have won."

You keep mentioning this in different contexts, and I genuinely don't understand the thinking. I have no doubt that you think it works for you, and might be a mental boost for those that believe they need it. But if the expression is purely artificial then what does it achieve? I don't see a straight line connecting "more chooing" with "more winning". Would you be willing to explain?

 

[Persistence TT]

the place is empty, i know the chinese men quit but i was expecting more spectators

tell that to rainenever who thinks TT is popular in china even without ZJK .

What amazes me still is that people are "disappointed" from empty stadiums, the chinese are overbored by their dominance and in west culture TT was always small chips, so whats with the surprise ??! the 90's were not enough to create a wider fanbase all over the world

 

[NextLevel]

"Boll was tchoing louder in order to compete better as well, which I don't understand why more players do not get it that this is what they have to do. If Vladi had thrown in a few more tchos in his match, he would have won."

You keep mentioning this in different contexts, and I genuinely don't understand the thinking. I have no doubt that you think it works for you, and might be a mental boost for those that believe they need it. But if the expression is purely artificial then what does it achieve? I don't see a straight line connecting "more chooing" with "more winning". Would you be willing to explain?

Why is the expression purely artificial? I think people feel guilty to do so because they think it is artificial. Your opponent is celebrating the vast majority of your errors. Can't you at least celebrate your own good play? If you don't want to because your opponent is a kid who is 13 who you feel you should be a way better player than, that is your problem. But I have seen Vladi much more animated in competitive matches than he was when playing Harimoto.

There is a genuine argument against kids and adults playing in the same events for related reasons.

 

[Baal]

Because if choing is not part of your routine it may well break your concentration rather than to enhance it. Because it takes energy. Because if you do not depend on adrenaline or certain kinds of emotional intensity to drive your game (and different people are wired up differently, that is the one thing I know is true about athletes) then attempting to do it may actually be counter-productive if it is not really who you are.

In fact, you could argue that like many other things, such as breathing, cho-ing is a technique, and you have to learn or be taught to do it and if you haven't been taught that way, well it may not work for you.

 

[Greco]

Here's the match between Harimoto and Niwa

 

[Garrison]

I hope Timo wins the final because then he would be pretty much guaranteed a spot at the world finals

 

[NextLevel]

Because if choing is not part of your routine it may well break your concentration rather than to enhance it. Because it takes energy. Because if you do not depend on adrenaline or certain kinds of emotional intensity to drive your game (and different people are wired up differently, that is the one thing I know is true about athletes) then attempting to do it may actually be counter-productive if it is not really who you are.

In fact, you could argue that like many other things, such as breathing, cho-ing is a technique, and you have to learn or be taught to do it and if you haven't been taught that way, well it may not work for you.

None of this is relevant to the contexts and the people that I am talking about. Moreover, I don't know anyone who plays better when the audience is cheering against him mostly by being serene. At the very worst, they get their coach or someone else to cheer for them more loudly. PEople pretty much prefer the crowd behind them.

Timo and Vladi celebrate, Timo louder and more consistently than Vladi, but both still celebrate. I would say that based on how often I watch them, Timo celebrated on average as loudly if not louder than average when playing Harimoto, while Vladi was more content to fist pump and bounce away. I have seen Vladi give louder deep throated even if short celebrations in battles and I felt , maybe just in my head, that he was unwilling to engage himself fully.

Koki Niwa for whatever reasons almost never chos. I would not recommend that he do so to the extent someone like Timo does. But when he played Dima in Germany, you could see him doing a lot of things to get his playing level more engaged that he rarely ever does. Not sure what changed him since he was more engaged in his younger years.

 

[Baal]

So, when do Timo and Dima play? Those guys always play pretty entertaining matches against each other. Even if, in the current case, the circumstances are quite strange.

 

[Baal]

None of this is relevant to the contexts and the people that I am talking about. Moreover, I don't know anyone who plays better when the audience is cheering against him mostly by being serene. At the very worst, they get their coach or someone else to cheer for them more loudly. PEople pretty much prefer the crowd behind them.

Timo and Vladi celebrate, Timo louder and more consistently than Vladi, but both still celebrate. I would say that based on how often I watch them, Timo celebrated on average as loudly if not louder than average when playing Harimoto, while Vladi was more content to fist pump and bounce away. I have seen Vladi give louder deep throated even if short celebrations in battles and I felt , maybe just in my head, that he was unwilling to engage himself fully.

Koki Niwa for whatever reasons almost never chos. I would not recommend that he do so to the extent someone like Timo does. But when he played Dima in Germany, you could see him doing a lot of things to get his playing level more engaged that he rarely ever does. Not sure what changed him since he was more engaged in his younger years.

I for one don't think the outcomes of those matches were related to how loud the players celebrated or whether or not the cho-ed. Just my two cents. An opinion is like a rectum. Everybody has one. I don't think cho-ing every player. It might help some.

 

[NextLevel]

I for one don't think the outcomes of those matches were related to how loud the players celebrated or whether or not the cho-ed. Just my two cents. An opinion is like a rectum. Everybody has one. I don't think cho-ing every player. It might help some.

Everyone has an opinion. But some world class players and coaches do share my opinion, so as much as it might just be an opinion, I think there is something to be said for it. Though of course, they have rectums as well. And in my experience competing, I have seen the effects of players who celebrate visibly on players who do not, almost like an alpha male thing. OF course, if you are much better than your opponent, it makes no difference. But if you back down from your most positive expression because your opponent is celebrating the vast majority of your errors, these things can reverse the results of 4-3 matches with close 7th games.

 

[Baal]

Some people are Borg or Lendl. Some people are Connors. Some people are McEnroe.

Same in TT.

There are no quantitative data on this that I know of and some coaches at times have believed things thst ended up being wrong.

 

[NextLevel]

Some people are Borg or Lendl. Some people are Connors. Some people are McEnroe.

Same in TT.

There are no quantitative data on this that I know of and some coaches at times have believed things thst ended up being wrong.

Largely irrelevant to the question of whether someone plays better or worse in the face of vocal challenge from their opponent by being silent or by increasing their arousal level.

 

[Xylit]

I prefer people to cheer against me than no one cheering at all. Would be even better if the audience was on my side of course but you can't have it all. I hate dead silence during match play.

 

[Badger]

Some people are Borg or Lendl. Some people are Connors. Some people are McEnroe.

Same in TT.

There are no quantitative data on this that I know of and some coaches at times have believed things thst ended up being wrong.

Well said. If chooing works for the individual based on their psyche, great. If not, it is artificial and possibly disrupting to the player (let's ignore the entire Harimoto "excessive chooing" minefield for now).

 

[Badger]

Everyone has an opinion. But some world class players and coaches do share my opinion, so as much as it might just be an opinion, I think there is something to be said for it. Though of course, they have rectums as well. And in my experience competing, I have seen the effects of players who celebrate visibly on players who do not, almost like an alpha male thing. OF course, if you are much better than your opponent, it makes no difference. But if you back down from your most positive expression because your opponent is celebrating the vast majority of your errors, these things can reverse the results of 4-3 matches with close 7th games.

Has chooing or similar always been a part of your game? Or is it something you have adopted more recently? Genuine question.

 

[NextLevel]

Has chooing or similar always been a part of your game? Or is it something you have adopted more recently? Genuine question.

Verbal expression is something I tend to do when challenged by my opponent or playing in hostile environments (in a club by myself where my opponent is the home player, on the road by myself when the opponent has a cheering section). I am generally silent when I play unless when celebrating critical points. But I have played opponents who loudly celebrate when I kept calm and noted that for me, it had the same affect as if the crowd was cheering every mistake I made. So over time, I gave myself permission to root for myself in those situations. In cases where for some reason, I am cheering myself in a close match to remain engaged, I have noted that it can have a deflating effect on my opponent, hence I generally prefer that people do not do it, but if they do, I encourage their opponents to do it if they seem to be getting low on intensity and have no clue why. Of course, I cheer as much as possible for them.

 

[jelt2359]

Verbal expression is something I tend to do when challenged by my opponent or playing in hostile environments (in a club by myself where my opponent is the home player, on the road by myself when the opponent has a cheering section). I am generally silent when I play unless when celebrating critical points. But I have played opponents who loudly celebrate when I kept calm and noted that for me, it had the same affect as if the crowd was cheering every mistake I made. So over time, I gave myself permission to root for myself in those situations. In cases where for some reason, I am cheering myself in a close match to remain engaged, I have noted that it can have a deflating effect on my opponent, hence I generally prefer that people do not do it, but if they do, I encourage their opponents to do it if they seem to be getting low on intensity and have no clue why. Of course, I cheer as much as possible for them.

Yes this happens to me too. I try not to do it, but then when people do it and I'm feeling upset about having missed and they're celebrating, I can sometimes feel offended and that screws up my game. So the best way is to counter it right back, celebrate the points won and forget quickly those lost. That helps me focus on myself, my own game, rather than what the other guy is doing or saying.

 

[Richie]

Koki Niwa for whatever reasons almost never chos. I would not recommend that he do so to the extent someone like Timo does. But when he played Dima in Germany, you could see him doing a lot of things to get his playing level more engaged that he rarely ever does. Not sure what changed him since he was more engaged in his younger years.

According to a Japanese woman I've often played against in the past who follows the japanese table tennis scene closely, Niwa doesn't cho because that's his strategy. Whenever he has cho'd it's because he's been told to. Apparently he was told to cho more in the olympics for the spectators, but he hated doing it.

I'm the same, no matter what you will NEVER find me choing. If I for some reason started choing, I'd feel dominated by the opponent - I've allowed them to change my behaviour, rather than doing what suits me - which is to stay quiet and focus on my game.

Obviously you're different and seem to feel like you need to give back some chos. Just because you do, does not mean it's something that helps everyone. It doesn't mean that Vladi or whoever else "lost because they didn't cho back enough" or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure these guys know what would help them win and if being extra loud vs Harimoto would help them win, then they would probably do it. We've already seen some players do it more than usual, Pistej for example which did absolutely nothing to help him beat Harimoto. I don't think Harimoto cares how loud someone chos and neither has any junior I've played if I or the other player would cho more. There will obviously be exceptions, but to me personally it isn't worth it to change my normal behaviour and start choing.


There was a stage where I would try to cho back when juniors choing got to me. I for one felt like an idiot as it wasn't something I'd done before. It also made me more worked up and made me focus on this behaviour rather than the game.
Like Baal said, it's draining.

 

[NextLevel]

According to a Japanese woman I've often played against in the past who follows the japanese table tennis scene closely, Niwa doesn't cho because that's his strategy. Whenever he has cho'd it's because he's been told to. Apparently he was told to cho more in the olympics for the spectators, but he hated doing it.

I'm the same, no matter what you will NEVER find me choing. If I for some reason started choing, I'd feel dominated by the opponent - I've allowed them to change my behaviour, rather than doing what suits me - which is to stay quiet and focus on my game.

Obviously you're different and seem to feel like you need to give back some chos. Just because you do, does not mean it's something that helps everyone. It doesn't mean that Vladi or whoever else "lost because they didn't cho back enough" or whatever you want to call it. I'm sure these guys know what would help them win and if being extra loud vs Harimoto would help them win, then they would probably do it. We've already seen some players do it more than usual, Pistej for example which did absolutely nothing to help him beat Harimoto. I don't think Harimoto cares how loud someone chos and neither has any junior I've played if I or the other player would cho more. There will obviously be exceptions, but to me personally it isn't worth it to change my normal behaviour and start choing.


There was a stage where I would try to cho back when juniors choing got to me. I for one felt like an idiot as it wasn't something I'd done before. It also made me more worked up and made me focus on this behaviour rather than the game.
Like Baal said, it's draining.

I think "Tchoing" insincerely, or anything done insincerely, unless rehearsed makes one feel like an idiot. So do many things, from pre-point routines, to after point routines, to wiping the table in between points etc. These are all things that can mess up your game when you do them until you practice and have a reason to do them. I list those because few would argue they are useless. Celebration is just as much one of them.

I rarely ever say "tcho" per se, I usually say "fight". Vladi doesn't "tcho", he usually gives a loud grunt. Timo doesn't usually tcho, he usually says "gbosa". The question is how one is ideally engaged as the conflict gets sharper and whether external factors are getting to you. If Vladi was usually silent in key points in matches, I would have written it off, but that is not the usual.

As for whether someone *cares* about what is going on, the best way to look at it is to measure what happens when they play their best table tennis against opposition at different levels and the effect on different kinds of opponents. Boll the gentleman was celebrating some points that people would call unsportsmanlike in many contexts (missed serve return etc.) that made me wonder what the line is between supposedly great sportsmanship and competing.

Body language is part of sports psychology, and there are parts of what Baal said that I agree with. But the point is not what one should do generally, but what strategies are available when your opponent is cheering loudly and it is getting to your head. And whether there are obvious signs that it is getting to your head.