Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

@carl

I think most players under 2100 actually don't have great service. It's severely under practiced. And then compliments come about our service when it really isn't that great.

Lucky for you, You've got some friends that are actually very good at it and can help you improve service


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Very well said.

 

[NextLevel]

Great comments and observation so far.

@Carl : Der_Echte did tell me about the encounter with Robert Chen. And I know exactly what he was doing because when echte decides to move he does move

NL , whenever you have time , please post your thoughts / critiques about my game / Sandy's . Both of us are looking forward to your advise.

ttmonster,

Only because you asked. DerEchte is there and can help you far more in person. You and Sandy both have advanced games and the issues that will be there will be hard to identify over camera. You were playing a legitimate 2000 level player with a hard to read game. You both often returned his serves better than I did.

What in particular do you guys have trouble with? Everyone has problems with their game. You and Sandy have similar backhand technique and similar backhand issues (straight stroke with bad contact point which only gets the job done up to a certain level if that is your full technique). Your pushes are more aggressive over the table as you aggressively go into the ball while she uses touch, but her pushes can be improved if she realizes that the way her racket starts is actually the way it should finish no matter how big a backswing she intends to take (this will improve the spin and speed on her pushes). You backswing with the arm, but she doesn't at all - ideally, it should be the forearm for more control and at short invisible wrist motion or loose wrist for more spin. Serves can definitely be improved as the whip just looks wrong or invisible, though there are some good things or the serves would be bad (her racket is probably looser than it appears on camera). But don't push past the ball - stop at the point on the ball you want to hit.

IF you don't want to do whip, always start with circular. If you do circular, it usually makes things whippier and if you look at her strokes, the circular ones are really good. The only thing to fix is the contact point on some of them.

In any case, point out if there is something specific.

 

[SchemeSC]

Today I spent almost the entire session working on my FH loop against block, trying to make the stroke more effortless. For the first time, I was able to loop 50+ balls in a row without missing. My previous high was somewhere in the 20's.

My focus was on proper grip tension, proper swing plane, and most importantly the timing of the forearm snap at the moment of contact. If the timing of the snap is correct, you just feel like you can't miss.

 

[NextLevel]

Today I spent almost the entire session working on my FH loop against block, trying to make the stroke more effortless. For the first time, I was able to loop 50+

My focus was on proper grip tension, proper swing plane, and most importantly the timing of the forearm snap at the moment of contact. If the timing of the snap is correct, you just feel like you can't miss.

Good stuff. Come round the sidetop the ball more earlier in the motion while still hitting the ball straight. You will need this contact point for looping heavy spin. IT's what the pros do, what you are doing right now won't get it done against heavy spin under pressure.

The analogy I like to use is that most match topspins are more like quarterback spirals than rolling soccer balls.

 

[ttmonster]

THanks NL , this is very helpful , I will hit you up if I can think of something more specific. Der has already asked Sandy to join the forum and participate.

ttmonster,

Only because you asked. DerEchte is there and can help you far more in person. You and Sandy both have advanced games and the issues that will be there will be hard to identify over camera. You were playing a legitimate 2000 level player with a hard to read game. You both often returned his serves better than I did.

What in particular do you guys have trouble with? Everyone has problems with their game. You and Sandy have similar backhand technique and similar backhand issues (straight stroke with bad contact point which only gets the job done up to a certain level if that is your full technique). Your pushes are more aggressive over the table as you aggressively go into the ball while she uses touch, but her pushes can be improved if she realizes that the way her racket starts is actually the way it should finish no matter how big a backswing she intends to take (this will improve the spin and speed on her pushes). You backswing with the arm, but she doesn't at all - ideally, it should be the forearm for more control and at short invisible wrist motion or loose wrist for more spin. Serves can definitely be improved as the whip just looks wrong or invisible, though there are some good things or the serves would be bad (her racket is probably looser than it appears on camera). But don't push past the ball - stop at the point on the ball you want to hit.

IF you don't want to do whip, always start with circular. If you do circular, it usually makes things whippier and if you look at her strokes, the circular ones are really good. The only thing to fix is the contact point on some of them.

In any case, point out if there is something specific.

 

[NextLevel]

TTM's no spin were sidespin serves slow with no underspin. I pushed those mostly and let him open, it was higher percentage for me to let him open and block, plus, it was more fun for him to open and keep attacking like Mad Max on Road Rage.

Brett actually asked me to watch his no-spin serve once and confirm that it was light topspin. On no-spin, I used to brush the ball, but I realized that the most effective no-spin comes from hitting the ball. I don't foot stomp so you can hear the hit, but I don't serve no-spin often either vs better players so it usually gets them at least once.

 

[ttmonster]

The long no spin serve that I do against long pips is a hit for sure , for the other variations , its normally a very less underspin or sidespin ( when I try to hit different part of the paddle ) or a carry which would be more pure no spin ..

Brett actually asked me to watch his no-spin serve once and confirm that it was light topspin. On no-spin, I used to brush the ball, but I realized that the most effective no-spin comes from hitting the ball. I don't foot stomp so you can hear the hit, but I don't serve no-spin often either vs better players so it usually gets them at least once.

 

[NextLevel]

The long no spin serve that I do against long pips is a hit for sure , for the other variations , its normally a very less underspin or sidespin ( when I try to hit different part of the paddle ) or a carry which would be more pure no spin ..

They are all valid approaches, but some are easier to push than others and the sales job is very critical. The other thing that is critical is your backspin serve. If people don't fear your backspin serve, your no spin serve will not draw many errors. Pushing heavy backspin with a chopping motion often puts the ball into the net, so that is how you keep the bad guys honest.

 

[ttmonster]

Yes NL , Der_Echte for one was definitely not sold

They are all valid approaches, but some are easier to push than others and the sales job is very critical. The other thing that is critical is your backspin serve. If people don't fear your backspin serve, your no spin serve will not draw many errors. Pushing heavy backspin with a chopping motion often puts the ball into the net, so that is how you keep the bad guys honest.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes NL , Der_Echte for one was definitely not sold

It might sound weird or obsessive, but that is why recording yourself from the perspective of the receiver when you serve is critical. Other wise, you really have no clue how deceptive your serves are.

 

[ttmonster]

I get your point NL , I will try to setup something soon . I have been perennially lazy about this because of other priorities ...

It might sound weird or obsessive, but that is why recording yourself from the perspective of the receiver when you serve is critical. Other wise, you really have no clue how deceptive your serves are.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I get your point NL , I will try to setup something soon . I have been perennially lazy about this because of other priorities ...

Guilty as charged: of course I am talking about myself.


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[songdavid98]

@carl

I think most players under 2100 actually don't have great service. It's severely under practiced. And then compliments come about our service when it really isn't that great.

Lucky for you, You've got some friends that are actually very good at it and can help you improve service

I feel like this is a symptom of players who only practice driving and looping the ball all day without playing games.
I've seen players that train all day without developing a great serve (also service return).

If you find players that have no formal training whatsoever that are around 2000, I can almost guarantee that they'll have a good serve, probably because they play games all day and rely on their serve. I used to be one of them. A whole lot of penholders in Flushing are like this.

 

[NextLevel]

I feel like this is a symptom of players who only practice driving and looping the ball all day without playing games.
I've seen players that train all day without developing a great serve (also service return).

If you find players that have no formal training whatsoever that are around 2000, I can almost guarantee that they'll have a good serve, probably because they play games all day and rely on their serve. I used to be one of them. A whole lot of penholders in Flushing are like this.

This is partly true but I think a huge part of it is also that lots of popular TT instruction focuses on looping and very little focuses on serving. The hours spent matter but if you don't have someone to guide you on what you are trying to do, it can be frustrating or you can just be putting in hours without seeing any results and not be sure what you do next.

Ever since I understood what to do, I can literally improve someone's serve pretty fast if they are open to instruction and willing to put in some time. I may not get it to the level of mine, but I don't do anything special other than listen to my coach and put in the hours.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

4 years ago I definitely did a lot standard block training like counterhitting and looping. But that is because my FH stroke was broken and needed to be totally rebuilt from the ground up and I noticed that when I played games and matches, my FH went right back to the old bad stuff. Pretty much instantly.

When Edmund Suen actually started helping me fix it, he did it while working on getting me to also adjust to a certain degree of randomness of placement, ball placement and spin while trying to keep the good stroke.

Man it took forever to undo the old bad form. But when it was starting to stick I started working on 3rd ball attack drills and other serve and receive drills.

Today I worked on these things:

1) I serve backspin, opponent pushes long to my BH, I loop, we play out the point.

2) I serve, opponent pushes long anywhere, I adjust to random placement and loop, we play out the point.

3) Opponent serves, I push long, opponent opens, I counterloop, we play out the point.

4) I serve short, opponent returns anything anywhere--short push, long push, flip, loop, anything anywhere--I use his return to try and attack, we play out the point.

So in that last drill, I got to practice my BH flip, my FH flip, my counterloop, my over the table FH loop on balls that would have double bounced but I could still loop.

And my training partner is enough better than me that he can really run me around once we are in open play.

So, yeah, I practice game skills. But practicing serves in that context is much different than the serve practice I need.

That kind of practice is why my serves are pretty good. But I am realizing that, if I had more time to play and could spend an hour 1-3 times a week practicing serves, my serves could get a lot better. Because I have a few things I do really need to practice to help my serves improve. They are specific things I have been shown by someone seeing me serve. That, coincidentally, NextLevel and Der_Echte also saw my serves needed. [emoji2]

By the way, I wasn't playing with Mark today, but my over the table play has really improved a lot, largely due to the work I do when I get to practice with him.


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[Archosaurus]

I think practicing my serve so much (Well, except lately!) has also improved my game overall, as the serve returns I get from my heavy serves are usually loaded as well, much more than I would normally get. I've slid across serve return chops because the backspin slowed it down enough, and other such things.

Somehow I think I wouldn't have even seen that level of spin yet, had it not been for my serve.

 

[NextLevel]

Here is a match vs a guy who beat a 2200 player in the 21 pt game 5 serves era - very powerful attacks. I posted it mostly because of the first game (the link takes you to the beginning of the first game). Watch how many points are won by my serve (in the second game, he introduced his vicious serves and it became a contest from then on as to who would lose less points on the opponent's serve). The number of my serves he put into the net is not uncommon vs. lower rated players - I have served whole matches vs 1600 players who just wondered why they couldn't push backspin anymore.

youtu.be/dL72xR6ni0M?t=857

My coach who got me to 2000 was not a big believer in serves (my opinion is because he was good at returning them and never really had good ones). Brett was a world class server had a very different opinion - he believed that the fact that my opponents were not missing my serves showed they were not good enough. I kinda understood what he meant but never fully believed him until recently, when I now can win points vs better players by serving (and lose matches vs same players with footwork and poor serve return). He used to tell me that I should be able to get 2200 players to make mistakes returning my serves. I used to think he was just confusing me with someone who had talent, but his statement motivated me to keep on practicing thinking that eventually, it would all come together. Then when he came over in September and stressed the importance of the advanced whip pattern that I posted a short video that explained it, everything just took off.

BTW, it was to some degree by accident that he actually noticed it. I was serving my then worst serve (pendulum) during one of his free clinics at my club and he pointed out that my fold of my wrist was not leading on the backswing. MY pendulum still sucked, but I transferred that insight to my backspin serve and voila, I started serving consistently super heavy backspin. And of course, when your backspin serve gets better, your no spin serve becomes more potent as well. I probably overuse the backspin serve, but it is always fun when something like what happens in the first game of the match above happens.

 

[Der_Echte]

One big thing I related to Sandy was she was trying for too much power to kill or crush when she didn't read the ball right (and consequently was too far back or not close enough). When I got her to wait for the ball and use less power, going for power starting from legs and hip with some shoulder turn and back stroke, it came together for her. She wasn't blasting anything by me, but she made quality topspins that applied pressure and kept her in the point. I also asked her to get more match practice, play more leagues, play vs maximum variety of players, video her games and post here, and develop all manner of serves from the same arm slot and service motion.

It is amzing what happens when we slow down and get the ball deeper in the zone.

Monster gave her similar advice and stressed practicing the same serve (and minor variations) and get everyone to return it every which way possible. Monster stressed this would give her a base to build a game around.

 

[Der_Echte]

We also discussed how tough it is to get honest lessons as an adult from a pro coach. Almost all of them in Bay Area are focused on training young kids along the expected path of progression. Adults do not fit that pattern and it is tough to get a coach to connect to an adult learner. Bay Area seems to be even rougher in this aspect, but it is common with many high level programs. At the end of the day, many sessions at 80 dollars a pop make it totally not worth it with most of them.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Today Schlaftablette paid me a visit from Korea. We had a nice knock together for more than 2 hours. He even played some fellow Koreans who are based in Tokyo whom I introduced to him. He didn't lie or brag and was really at least 2 levels above me.

We did various drills and ended with a game which he won straight without really needing to play his best game, but i think i fought decently, and had a few chances to win at least one set but I missed those chances. Maybe next time...

Anyway, there were a lot of nice rallies, and it was a lot of fun.