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Double serve like in tennis
- Thread starter Atas Newton
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agree, I was thinking of some ways of making it not too drastic a change from what we have now and it's either this idea or having 3 attempts per 2 serves (instead of 4).
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I don't like that idea for matchplay. For training purposes however, we do that quite often. Play training matches where you have two serve attempts like in tennis. This encourages you to try your best (or new) serves without being too afraid to make too many serve errors. Of course it is just a training match and serve errors should not matter too much but even in training matches everyone prefers winning over losing 
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I'm thinking about what a rule like this would mean for professional play. So here are my thoughts:
There are two new possibilities with a rule like this: a serve that almost touches the net and a serve that almost goes out. Let's discuss the serve that almost goes out.
Your original post that mentioned super fast serves probably wouldn't happen, simply because long serves aren't as useful as short serves are. Instead, players would probably do the following:
If I were a scumbag, I'd use this rule to go for edge ball serves (specifically, serves that hit the side edge of the table to their backhand). A 70% miss, 30% edge serve is perfectly fine. If I miss the serve, I go back to a normal serve. If I'm successful, the opponent has to deal with the edge ball. This would probably be difficult to punish as long as I aim out rather than aiming in the table, since if it bounces in the table and not on the edge, it just becomes a normal serve. Of course, this scumbag serve can also have spin
Now, let's go to the other extreme. I'd serve as low as possible and as spinny as possible. Same logic. It would be very difficult to return such serves with good quality. If I miss, I go back to a normal serve. This isn't that bad, since pro serves are already pretty low. This rule just incentivizes players to go for the extreme every first serve.
******
Here's what I think the effects of the rule will be:
1. As others have said: we'll get a longer game, since we'll have more freebie serves.
2. We'll probably get a world champion who uses edge-ball serves
3. On a more serious note: the increase in missed serves makes the sport look more pathetic.
4. The increase in difficulty to return serves creates less and shorter rallies, making the sport look more pathetic.
5. The increase in pro players missing service return makes the sport look more pathetic.
EDIT:
6. More serves that push the extremes needs to call for better measures to enforce such rules. Cameras should be used to enforce service rules to check if the serve really did touch or net, or if the serve really did hit the edge.
There are two new possibilities with a rule like this: a serve that almost touches the net and a serve that almost goes out. Let's discuss the serve that almost goes out.
Your original post that mentioned super fast serves probably wouldn't happen, simply because long serves aren't as useful as short serves are. Instead, players would probably do the following:
If I were a scumbag, I'd use this rule to go for edge ball serves (specifically, serves that hit the side edge of the table to their backhand). A 70% miss, 30% edge serve is perfectly fine. If I miss the serve, I go back to a normal serve. If I'm successful, the opponent has to deal with the edge ball. This would probably be difficult to punish as long as I aim out rather than aiming in the table, since if it bounces in the table and not on the edge, it just becomes a normal serve. Of course, this scumbag serve can also have spin
Now, let's go to the other extreme. I'd serve as low as possible and as spinny as possible. Same logic. It would be very difficult to return such serves with good quality. If I miss, I go back to a normal serve. This isn't that bad, since pro serves are already pretty low. This rule just incentivizes players to go for the extreme every first serve.
******
Here's what I think the effects of the rule will be:
1. As others have said: we'll get a longer game, since we'll have more freebie serves.
2. We'll probably get a world champion who uses edge-ball serves
3. On a more serious note: the increase in missed serves makes the sport look more pathetic.
4. The increase in difficulty to return serves creates less and shorter rallies, making the sport look more pathetic.
5. The increase in pro players missing service return makes the sport look more pathetic.
EDIT:
6. More serves that push the extremes needs to call for better measures to enforce such rules. Cameras should be used to enforce service rules to check if the serve really did touch or net, or if the serve really did hit the edge.
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Maybe cameras should be used to enforce service rules to check if the service was hidden ... ?
(mounted at the edges of a net frames).
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+1000 Yep. Spot on.
Oh wait. As covered earlier by the OP, something that rarely happens is by definition exciting. So I guess the rare serve where you do actually get in would be really exciting to watch.
Now we hear that Atlas in reading your post and thinking "yeah no getting around that" is saying that all edge ball serves should have been ruled a let a long time ago. Just exactly how many rule changes is he purposing here?
I want to know who are the 4 family members of his on this board who voted yes for this idea.
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Well .. instead of crushing somebody's idea because yours is different, it is a good sportsmanship to respect his since the idea has not been proven wrong. I still like to see the idea being tested out at some local club tournaments and see crowd, players reaction. You will never know!
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I am open to hearing potential ideas... however the idea OP proposes has no potential.
Servers already had such an advantage that rules had to be modified to reduce overwhelming advantage of servers... now the idea OP proposes would up it again...
Just isn't gunna happen, servers already have big advantage even with rules reducing their advantage.
I am open to ridiculing ridiculous posts, may do so on a future post and may have my bad ideas treated the same.
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Servers already had such an advantage that rules had to be modified to reduce overwhelming advantage of servers... now the idea OP proposes would up it again...
Just isn't gunna happen, servers already have big advantage even with rules reducing their advantage.
I am open to ridiculing ridiculous posts, may do so on a future post and may have my bad ideas treated the same.
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how big do you think the said advantage would be? I got some stats at my disposal, just wanna hear your guesstimate. For the sake of the experiment, please don't google the answer
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The games may not be much longer on average. Reason being that stronger serves would cause shorter rallies.
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Just read some of Carl and NL posts on my serves and my game. Neither of that dynamic duo would want Der_Echte to have any additional advantage on serve...how big do you think the said advantage would be? I got some stats at my disposal, just wanna hear your guesstimate. For the sake of the experiment, please don't google the answer
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but you didn't say you have significant advantage on serve, you said servers in general do. Which is not the case. Shall I start ridiculing your post? jk
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You don't read very well and look to be spoiling for trouble over your suggestion. My cat can give you a suggestion.
Read all the posts ittf pres spelled out on his posting days, read what we have been posting on serves. Ask Carl, NL tt monster or any forum member who is seen us in action. Ask them our stats and strength on serve and look at what you wrote.
You are about to step on a pile.
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Read all the posts ittf pres spelled out on his posting days, read what we have been posting on serves. Ask Carl, NL tt monster or any forum member who is seen us in action. Ask them our stats and strength on serve and look at what you wrote.
You are about to step on a pile.
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You're being rude, my friend. Even worse - you're being wrong as well. I can actually read I can also quote your post for everyone else who can read to see:
I can also quote your post for everyone else who can read to see:Sorry, I don't think the rules were modified in response to you, Carl and NL having amazing serves. I think you meant servers in general. And what you claimed is wrong. During Rio Olympics Men's Singles event servers won 52.6% of the points, i.e. a measly 1 point advantage per 3 games worth of serves. 1 in 33, tremendous advantage indeed. In fact, tha game of table tennis is far more balanced than chess, renowned for its fairness and long thought to be completely fair (draw if both play perfectly). Turns out, white win 10% more frequently.
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Don't bother Der_Echte. This guy has pretty thin skin and is quick to lash out if you don't treat his idea with kid gloves on.
Despite the overwhelming objection to this ridiculous idea from the poll results and multiple posts from members why, clearly that's not good enough for him. He has made up his mind that this is a fantastic idea. To which I say "Great. Good luck with that buddy."
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Yeah. I agree. This subject is just not worth bothering with.
As far as the serve advantage in a particular tournament, part of why it is hard to judge that is disparity in player levels.
When ML or FZD play someone where they Win 4-0 -2, -3, -2,-1 they probably won a majority of their opponent’s serve points.
I just don’t see a need for a rule like this for any reason.
I respect that some people may like the idea. Last time I was playing matches regularly, I think my average was one missed serve every 4 or 5 matches. And I don’t feel like having a serve where I knew I could miss and try anything would change my serving at all unless I did the edge serve thing.
And long serves when the opponent is expecting them is like asking to get beaten worse. If you keep giving long, fast serves to a decent level player, they are just going to come back faster.
And a decent player will use their serves to set up their third ball. Most good players aren’t really serving in hopes of getting free points. At a certain point, taking spin off of the serve gives you more of an advantage than adding spin will.
One of Der_Echte’s best serve strategies is to show HEAVY backspin and then, once the opponent is sold on heavy, he will pull the rug out and give the dead ball. Apparently, that was the same basic serve tactic Ma Lin used with his spin/no spin serves.
So, using the serve to get the third ball you want, that is a very common strategy and I don’t think you need more than one serve attempt for that.
But in practice games, I will give my opponents a second serve when they miss so I get the practice returning their serves. Rather than just taking a free point off their serve. And when I am playing someone where I am clearly better than them, I will do that as well. Someone who I can beat at 4 over and over, I don’t need to take free points of them missing their serves.
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As far as the serve advantage in a particular tournament, part of why it is hard to judge that is disparity in player levels.
When ML or FZD play someone where they Win 4-0 -2, -3, -2,-1 they probably won a majority of their opponent’s serve points.
I just don’t see a need for a rule like this for any reason.
I respect that some people may like the idea. Last time I was playing matches regularly, I think my average was one missed serve every 4 or 5 matches. And I don’t feel like having a serve where I knew I could miss and try anything would change my serving at all unless I did the edge serve thing.
And long serves when the opponent is expecting them is like asking to get beaten worse. If you keep giving long, fast serves to a decent level player, they are just going to come back faster.
And a decent player will use their serves to set up their third ball. Most good players aren’t really serving in hopes of getting free points. At a certain point, taking spin off of the serve gives you more of an advantage than adding spin will.
One of Der_Echte’s best serve strategies is to show HEAVY backspin and then, once the opponent is sold on heavy, he will pull the rug out and give the dead ball. Apparently, that was the same basic serve tactic Ma Lin used with his spin/no spin serves.
So, using the serve to get the third ball you want, that is a very common strategy and I don’t think you need more than one serve attempt for that.
But in practice games, I will give my opponents a second serve when they miss so I get the practice returning their serves. Rather than just taking a free point off their serve. And when I am playing someone where I am clearly better than them, I will do that as well. Someone who I can beat at 4 over and over, I don’t need to take free points of them missing their serves.
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