high and low throw rubbers

[NextLevel]

Yep when to not do it is as important as when to do it. I may be doing it as well, but if I am, I am not aware of it. And I am not doing the relax part before the hand pressure part. But, changing the hand pressure to change the spin with the same exact motion is very effective and I told Der_Echte yesterday that I think his serves are pretty high level.

Most people grip their rackets too tightly anyways. In general, the thing is that accelerating the racket with the wrist tends to force that grip pressure change anyways or the racket wobbles too much in your hand. Swinging at a more even pace doesn't wobble the racket as much.

On your forehand, the way you hold it (backhand orientation) actually restricts the degree of usage of the wrist on the forehand contrary to some popular belief. But it works extremely well for some people including high level players, especially for trapping heavy topspin as it is more of a sidespin loop than even a conventional loop. You can drive through the ball with it so obviously, you control it better than many people do.

And yes, Der_Echte is really HTS_Dude.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Would really like you to answer DTopSpirit's question. Don't have have to do more than *match* the rotation on the ball to impart truly heavy topspin?

What part don't you understand? The ball already has heavy back spin. If I match the spin of the ball I will neither speed it up or slow it down. The ball will go back with heavy top spin. The best part is that if I don't slow the spin down the paddle will not impart a downwards force on the ball so it goes into the net.

You and others have claimed that I have killed the spin on the ball. How do I do that without exerting a downwards force when my paddle is at an neutral angle or just a little closed?

 

[Pnachtwey]

I know, Liten, but sometimes it's so hard to resist.
So one more chance:
Here, Mr. Pnachtweyh, we made this one for you. It was actually just a test of one club members new GoPro.

Nice loop, now try it with the robot shooting back spins at maximum back spin like I was. Now you need to make your stroke much more vertical and not close your paddle near as much. You are comparing apples to oranges and probably haven't seen the video.

 

[Pnachtwey]

PNachtwey: since when calling people names became fashion again?

As soon as upsidedowncarl called me delusional. The balls were going over the net. What I am saying and the results are not a delusion.

 

[SchemeSC]

you and others have claimed that i have killed the spin on the ball. How do i do that without exerting a downwards force when my paddle is at an neutral angle or just a little closed?

I know!! YOU SLAP THAT S.O.B.!!!!

 

[Pnachtwey]

A blog that I read, just published an article on the same subject. It should clear a lot of things up

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/09/07/throw-angle/

This is a pretty good post. I added some links to work done by some professors on the topic but they don't use the term throw.

 

[SchemeSC]

So I just went downstairs and set my Newgy on extremely heavy backspin about 10-12 feet off the table, similar to where a chopper would stand. I focused on looping the backspin balls with a NEUTRAL paddle angle and swinging somewhat forward, so that the paddle finished at least somewhat in front of my face.

I was able to get most all of my shots over the net, and there's no way my swing speed was matching the spin of the ball. None of my shots seemed to have what I would consider heavy topspin, and it was obvious the only reason the ball was clearing the net was because my contact point was above net height.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As soon as upsidedowncarl called me delusional. The balls were going over the net. What I am saying and the results are not a delusion.

Actually, I used the word delusional long after I heard the word idiot and stupid thrown around. You used similar terms on MyTT before they banned you, and I don't really post there. And you started here with names about NextLevel. You like arguing and calling people names. I held back a long time while reading "Stupid Carl" multiple times in post after post. I started using the term PNut because it is clear that you are here primarily to argue about petty points and are missing the bigger picture.

My use of the term delusional is directly related to the fact that you somehow think a ball with very little spin on it is a topspin loop. If it is a loop why does it have such a small amount of spin? How did you take super heavy backspin and not end up with massive topspin if you are doing what you think you are doing? From watching the arc, the bounce and the ball after landing--whether against the net or at the back wall--it is clear that your drives have an extraordinary amount less spin after you hit them than they did before you hit them.

I actually think you are the one who needs to work out how you are receiving a seriously heavy backspin ball and putting it back with such a small amount of topspin. And I think that is a personal matter for you to sort out. Plenty of people gave you good info on this subject.

But I don't want or need to argue. Just post some new videos. Show us those angles where we can see your stroke and your bat face. Show us that you can loop. And in the mean time, just go back and read Killerspintt's posts. He is being really nice, explaining things really well and has presented information that would really help you improve if you listen to him.

I don't want you to stay that bad as a player. I would be happy for you to actually learn how to loop and see your skill as a player improve. My money says, if you got to decent competence at looping you would actually start writing stuff that would help loads of people get better and understand things better. You sometimes do already. But then you hit on ideas that stop you from seeing some things about yourself and your skill level and keep you arguing about insignificant subject matter.

If you were doing what you think you are doing those would be some awesome loops and it would be hard not to see the massive topspin.

Another test you could do with balls looped like that is have someone who is around 2000-2100 who you know, like and trust block the balls back that you "loop" from the robot and have him tell you how much spin is on your shots. He will know if your shots are heavy or not. If you trust him, he could probably help you turn it from a drive to a loop. You only stand to gain from that.


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[Baal]

Personally I didn't find Calibra LT to throw very high (certainly not like T05), although I think the stuff is pretty good rubber all in all. (Responding I think to something posted quite a ways back in the thread).

 

[NextLevel]

What part don't you understand? The ball already has heavy back spin. If I match the spin of the ball I will neither speed it up or slow it down. The ball will go back with heavy top spin. The best part is that if I don't slow the spin down the paddle will not impart a downwards force on the ball so it goes into the net.

You and others have claimed that I have killed the spin on the ball. How do I do that without exerting a downwards force when my paddle is at an neutral angle or just a little closed?

You again have failed to define what you mean by "matching the spin". Define "matching the spin" in any response you want to make going forward. Then, we will use your definition to interpret your response.

On why you are clearly killing the spin, let's try again - you may not realize that there are two almost identically titled threads and that you need to keep the one with your responses consistent. Here is the link to my post on the other thread which focuses on the issue you have ignored:

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...-arc)-thoughts&p=120645&viewfull=1#post120645

I quote myself:

So let me help Pnatchwey by simplifying. For those of us who play a lot of TT and actually spin the ball, we tend to do two things:

1. We test the quality of our looping strokes by taking the ball at heights below the net as this is when looping is most critical (above the net, I may loop, but more often than not I drive the ball hard, either flat or with topspin and this is not a critical test of looping). The ball should dip violently on the other other side if we loop it properly. In fact, those of us with good topspin strokes have all experienced the moments when we think our ball is going long and suddenly lands on the table because it took a sharp drop from a high height because of an outrageous amount of spin.

2. We look at our ball after it hits the table and rolls on the floor to see how much spin it retains. Usually, the ball is fizzing with spin on these shots, and rolls around before coming to a halt. I use similar observations to see how much spin I am generating on my serves.

So Pnatchwey, your ball is not passing the two tests listed above. If you could redo the video and show that it passes at least one of these tests, people would take you much more seriously.

Please address which of these two tests your video passes for looping.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I like that phrase: "fizzing with spin."

That image gets at what happens.

And usually when you loop and it hits the net the ball is fizzing with spin just as much as when it lands on the floor after it hits the the table.

It is fun to watch a good loop get repelled by the net and then shoot back at the net like a dart and then sizzle as it is spinning and getting pulled into the net and bouncing away and back again. Or when they hit the floor and shoot off like a rocket in some completely unexpected direction because the axis of rotation somehow got changed when it hit a barrier or another ball.


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[Pnachtwey]

Are You BLIND?

I know!! YOU SLAP THAT S.O.B.!!!!

This is a good example of why I call people names. They see only what they want to see. They lie and misrepresent the truth. This idiot has not seen my video or can not see that my stroke is mostly up. I am not slapping the S.O.B. I posted a link where a person that was slapping the S.O.B. against bogeyhunter only drilled the ball into the net. I am matching the tangential speed of the ball. SchemeSC is apparently too stupid after many posts and explanations that I am matching the spin of the ball and that any back spin ball can be returned this way if you don't let the ball drop below the net top.

SchemeSC, if I just slapped the ball the ball would go into the net. There is a lot of back spin on the ball. Did you see the video with bogey hunter vs I forgot his name #2? That guy slapped the ball and couldn't loop back bogeyhunter's chops.

 

[NextLevel]

I like that phrase: "fizzing with spin."

That image gets at what happens.

And usually when you loop and it hits the net the ball is fizzing with spin just as much as when it lands on the floor after it hits the the table.

It is fun to watch a good loop get repelled by the net and then shoot back at the net like a dart and then sizzle as it is spinning and getting pulled into the net and bouncing away and back again. Or when they hit the floor and shoot off like a rocket in some completely unexpected direction because the axis of rotation somehow got changed when it hit a barrier or another ball.


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Exactly - that lets you know that you made spin contact even if you didn't make the shot.

Now while I am not looping against a heavy backspin ball (the balls I am looping are closer to no-spin), here is a video I made to help SchemeSC on another site think about putting spin on the ball rather than pace. Again, the camera angle reveals enough about my stroke and the rotation on the balls is extremely obvious no matter what speed I hit the balls at in this video. You can see the "fizzing with spin" phenomenon when the balls hit the net. You can also hear the pop/crack on my racket from the spin contact.

Now here is Brett Clarke's video on backhand topspin like a boss. Again, even when he is ripping the ball, you see the sizzling flight of the topspin ball. Magnificent pro level rotation (currently beyond me but I have big and unrealistic aspirations, so let's come back to that next year).

Now, let's look at the rotation (or the absence of it) on the backspin slapper:

I look at the balls on the floor and say to myself - maybe the rug is slowing them down, but I really don't see the spin. I look at the ball and I don't see an arc - I see a drive of a high ball.

In fact, while the looping technique (or slapping, whichever you prefer) looks terrible, it's quite possible that this is Pnatchwey's secretary flopping her arms around. That's why Pnatchwey can't show the full view - he doesn't want to embarass me by showing that he couldn't do it so he got his secretary to do the dirty work.

 

[SchemeSC]

This is a good example of why I call people names. They see only what they want to see. They lie and misrepresent the truth. This idiot has not seen my video or can not see that my stroke is mostly up. I am not slapping the S.O.B. I posted a link where a person that was slapping the S.O.B. against bogeyhunter only drilled the ball into the net. I am matching the tangential speed of the ball. SchemeSC is apparently too stupid after many posts and explanations that I am matching the spin of the ball and that any back spin ball can be returned this way if you don't let the ball drop below the net top.

SchemeSC, if I just slapped the ball the ball would go into the net. There is a lot of back spin on the ball. Did you see the video with bogey hunter vs I forgot his name #2? That guy slapped the ball and couldn't loop back bogeyhunter's chops.

Pnachtwey,

Not only did I watch your video multiple times, but I actually went down into my basement and RECREATED the exact same conditions as set forth in your video. I did my best to set the robot at the exact same distance from the table, I reproduced the same ball flight, and I set the robot on the maximum level of backspin. Heck, I even tried to mirror your stroke (or the little bit of it we can actually see) to the best of my abilities. So, you are free to think I'm an idiot, but do not tell me I did not watch your video. One could even say that your videos INSPIRED me, sir.

Now, are you ready for the bad news? The bad news is that you and I share a common ailment, or "sickness" if you will. Nextlevel has already ratted me out so I might as well go ahead and come clean about this, so here goes...

I, much like pnachtwey, also like to slap balls.

The difference between pnachtwey and I is that I'm not in denial about my ailment. I know how to recognize when I've generated heavy topspin on a shot and when I haven't, because I can FEEL the difference. I can feel the rubber deform, hear that "tock" sound when I've swung with perfect timing and perfect speed, see the ball fizzing with spin and arc.through the air, even experience the embarassment of not being able to pick the ball up off the floor after my 2000 plus buddy just ripped a loop past me because it's still spinning so darn much. So, although I can't consistently produce good spin and I still qualify as a ball slapper, I know good spin when I see it and when I feel it.

Pnachtwey, it's funny that you mention bogeyhunter. I actually took about 5 or 6 months of lessons with him when I first started playing tournaments. Have you ever looped against bogey's chops before? I can assure you that bogey's heaviest chops are heavier and harder to lift than anything our stupid Newgy robots could ever produce. You won't believe me though because you are absolutely convinced that a Newgy robot delivers the world's heaviest backspin, and the fact that you're able to clear the net with a few of your shots qualifies you as a backspin looping expert. For the 500th time, THE FACT THAT YOUR SHOT IS CLEARING THE NET WITH A NEUTRAL RACKET ANGLE DOES NOT SUGGEST YOU ARE SENDING THE BALL BACK WITH SIGNIFICANT TOPSPIN.

What I would really love to see is a 2500 level player loop 2 or 3 of his strongest loops into bogey's heaviest chop, and then on the 4th chop have the 2500 move out of the way and then see you try to loop the next ball. Believe me when I say the results would be pretty comical.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, if Pnachtwey's stroke was mostly down to up as has been stated, you would either see the racket in the frame the whole time or you would never see the racket in the frame. You can see that the motion of his backswing is far more back than down because the racket disappears out of the left side of the screen and only reappears in the frame at about the contact point of the next ball. In fact the up motion of his swing looks like it only appears in his follow through at the end of the stroke after the ball has left the racket. The stroke looks like it has far more forward movement than up movement based on the small amount of the stroke where the racket appears in the frame.

Again, if the stroke was down to up, almost vertical, it would either be in the frame the whole time or never be in the frame. Or really the exit point for the racket from the frame would be the bottom of the frame, not the side of the frame.

 

[Liten]

I still can't figure out why you reward namecalling and ignorance with your time and good tips...

 

[NextLevel]

I still can't figure out why you reward namecalling and ignorance with your time and good tips...

The Dark Side is a powerful force... sometimes, you just have to yield to it...

 

[Liten]

Or, hes right, in hes namecalling!

 

[Der_Echte]

I will need to make a separate post on the topic of creating true and false spin and different impacts, etc.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The bad news is that you and I share a common ailment, or "sickness" if you will. Nextlevel has already ratted me out so I might as well go ahead and come clean about this, so here goes...

Darn it, I though you were going to admit to having Asperger's! I was so excited. But then I realized, that is a different disease that one of you has and the other doesn't.

But I must confess, this next quote is the funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life. I am still laughing about it for days after it was first posted.

Yes, I play TT in China. When we, my translator and I, play were are better than all but the best there and the coaches....

Have a good day but try to separate myth from fact.

I love this. In China where Dan, who is about 2400-2500 gets beaten by a 12 year old with a little racket, Pnachtwey is better than all but the best and the coaches.

One time I heard this 11 year old kid say this to someone: "Where'd you go to college? Huh! They don't know nothin' there, do they?"

And remember, try and separate myth from fact because a 1200 level player from the USA is better than all but the best players and coaches in China.