How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

I am trying to formula a service plan (1st 6 ~ 8 serves) to get information (assuming first time playing) e.g.

* does the other have a loop to open vs backspin or yes on the FH & pushes back on the BH (this is me at the moment & i am working towards more BH topspin returns)

* check how the other move by serving middle, then run the other side to side or does the other open and attack

* also i want to know if the other has a flick on either sides by serving dbl bouncing, mid-table balls, slightly on FH or BH with dead or underspin

* finally i want to know whether the other can read a dead ball (on a service return or during rally) & what does the other do with a dead ball on FH & BH

... so kind'a like an American football game, first 20 plays are scripted

During the first game, do you have a favorite (or two) serve and to what location that gets you a tell on the other's game?

LDM7

 

[IB66]

How are you IBB66,

I read your above match analysis twice, considered your words over time & have the following questions

Thank you for taking the time to reply (if you so chose) & start a dialogue around how did we win-or-lose a match (you chose a loss)


1st match I lost 3-1, the end I won was 11-3, no mistakes, good point construction on serve, positive play in general. Ends lost 8-11, 8-11, were tight and I think that because I was slightly negative and didn't assert my game, and when I did try more open-ups made mistakes. Last end 6-11, this was after winning the 3rd end 11-3, mistake city!!

=> imo 8 - 11 were close, an edge here, another net there ... wa la, pressure is square on her

=> what were your self-talk during these two ends?

=> what caused you to be "slightly negative?"

This ladies playing style was based on being consistent and good ball placement, a lot of pushes
More to come on the rest of the games later!!!

=> did you open (attack) those pushes or were you timid?

=> were most of those pushes in your middle, jammed you?

=> did you see her pushed balls early enough to get in position to open (either side)?

when playing top spin rallies she had a compact FH & BH but nothing special just consistent, few mistakes

=> i am thinking ... instead of playing her consistent, patty cake brand of TT, not kill loop every shot (high risks), rather start with her middle, then run her side-2-side (variety)???

My consistency and not imposing myself better lost me the match

=> I am right there with you IBB66, is it possible that your consistency wasn't the culprit, rather type of shots & LOCATION could have been different at times?

=> i interpret "not imposing myself" as you held back, WHY? playing not to lose? first time playing that lady? game-2-game adjustments?


3rd end 11-3, mistake city

=> mentally, did you give up already, fatigued or did she play even more consistent to cause you "mistake city?"

Hi LDM7,

Yeah pretty good thanks, knees have been good this week, but lower back needs some TLC with a physio!!
Hope you are fit and well, I am I right in thinking you played on Friday evening? How did it go?

The 8-11 games were tight, 1st one She crept ahead and I wasn’t able to get back, as it was the 1st end of the night and maybe not warmed up / tuned in enough, so I think she was 0-3 up then we won equal amount of points. 1st ends are always sort of ‘suck it and see’ each player trying to get a grip on the others weaknesses/strengths etc.
2nd 8-11 end I was up 8-6 and playing ok, but wasn’t positive enough, let myself play her game, too many pushes, when I did open up, not deep enough, maybe too slow and not in a good position, ie where the ball bounced on her side of the table. Missed a couple of sitters!!, should have been 1-1.

Self talk - general - stay relaxed, this is something I’ve been concentrating on, check grip loose, check breathing - take some nice deep breaths, try and breath out as opponent or I serve, release some tension if you can! Loosee Goosee!! ( not sure if I got that spelt right!!!)
Keep telling myself to ‘come on you can do this’ ‘get on top of this play your game’ which didn’t do too much good as I still pushed too many!!! This was the negative part, too many pushes, didn’t open up quick enough, as soon as that ball was past the end of the table I should have been on it with a loop.
pushing that 1st ball back gave her the chance to dictate and move the ball and me about, I didn’t get ‘jammed’ up, more lateral positioning / placement of her pushes, side to side, I then struggled to get in position, well in position enough to feel confident to open up, so another push resulted!!!

I think that you are right about targeting her middle, I should have done this more, and my pushes were not attacking enough, perhaps they could have been faster more direct angle, they we’re a little to floaty!!

the last end, after winning the previous end, I tried to play as per the previous end, where I was more positive etc, but shot quality wasn’t as good, open ups were 1/2 table, not deep enough, this gave her the chance to block strongly or attack and she blocked with good angles moving me around.
When I did give it some with an opening loop, faster deeper I missed the table. The start of this end was the killer, she was up 5-1 and I never got back, kept a positive attitude tried to gee myself up,”come on boy” “good one to win” that sort of stuff, but I just missed too many, allowed her to attack because my open ups were not of high enough quality.

When you are trying to get out of that push push type of game, that type of game you have played for a few years, because that’s how you played at a lower standard. It can be hard to really implement what you really want to do, especially if you make errors, then the ‘let’s get the ball back’ mentality kicks in and you push!!

This was the 1st match, I’ll write some on the other 2 later today and post it.

if you want to PM me and start chatting that way as well, then yeah let’s start a dialogue!!

 

[Brs]

During the first game, do you have a favorite (or two) serve and to what location that gets you a tell on the other's game?

LDM7

I always serve pendulum side-under to the short middle in my first four serves, unless playing vs long pips in which case sidespin is out. It's my highest-quality spin serve. I want them to push it long to my backhand so I can open with the pips. Most people do that.

Some people backhand flick. At my level a lot more players think they can flick like LYJ than really can. Those I will give pure side or side top next so they flick it off.

The trouble comes with opponents who touch that serve back short and low to my forehand or middle. Mike Tyson famously said 'Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.' That receive executed easily and well is the TT equivalent of a punch in the face. One of my most reliable serves just got taken out of play, and I have a problem already only a few points into the match.

 

[IB66]

2nd game was against a lady that has to be aged 65+yrs old, she plays inverted FH, LP BH.
push blocker on BH, almost just get the bat in the way of the ball and try and move you around. She has a short FH stroke, blocks or sort of topspin from block starting point, no back swing, no real power, no real spin.
Relies on BH for serve return moves right across to FH side to get those LP’s in play
serves are not spinny, low either long or short, usually no spin at all. Likes to serve very short to receivers FH or long to middle.

Our teams strongest player played her 1sr he lost 3 zip!! I was scoring/umpire, he just struggled against the LP’s, tried to attack with topspin, kept getting caught out with the spin reversal!! Couldn’t control himself enough.

1st end against her I won 11-8, used light topspin, no spin and light under spin serves 1/2 long and long. She didn’t return my fast BH no spin serve deep into her BH well at all.
I found that she showed no attacking threat at all, even if the ball popped up on her FH she couldn’t put it away loop kill or smash style, a medium paced FH drive at best. Placement to win the point rather than power, and rely on opponents mistakes.
Because the threat level was low, I played a lot of dead no spin shots both BH and FH, which she struggled with, a good number floated off long. To be honest I thought I was going to have more issues but controlled myself well. If I did open up with a loop I pushed the next ball, Topspin next, push, topspin etc. Also killed a few points with FH loop.

After the 1st end I was feeling pretty confident!! Lost the next 2 games 8-11 & 8-11 !! Tight games, she adapted to my no spin balls & kept more on. I made about 4 serve receive errors per game gifting points at least 3 of those short no spin serves to my FH got bumped into the net!! I didn’t get my loop going either.
Although I lost these games, I wasn’t over stressed about it, at the end of the 3rd I had crunched a short dead ball away with my BH, 1st time I had tried it, and knew that I could return the short serves to my FH way better.
4th end I won 11-7, no FH receive errors, got more loops in, and crunched a few more BH’s away. After that BH in the 3rd end, I knew I could win easily. Serve short light under spin to get a short slight topspin return take the ball top of bounce over the table and put it away. Made a couple of errors by hitting long, even in mid rally I knew a short ball would come and I could put it away!!!
5th end score was 11-4, looped killed longer balls, and continued to crunch any short or mid length balls to my BH first time of asking. Heavy spin to her open FH won points as well. In short I Blitzed the last end!!

The key was to play with light spin serves not heavy spin, try and keep cool and only use heavy spin onto her FH, if it was open, Mid rally a heavy topspin ball from my BH/FH to her FH won the point, she wasn’t quick enough to get across and get the BH LP’s on the ball and couldn’t control the spin with her inverted FH.

I’m usually not ‘happy’ playing v LP’s, but I’m getting more use to it!!! Different kettle of fish when the opponent has more skills though!!

 

[IB66]

I am trying to formula a service plan (1st 6 ~ 8 serves) to get information (assuming first time playing) e.g.

* does the other have a loop to open vs backspin or yes on the FH & pushes back on the BH (this is me at the moment & i am working towards more BH topspin returns)

* check how the other move by serving middle, then run the other side to side or does the other open and attack

* also i want to know if the other has a flick on either sides by serving dbl bouncing, mid-table balls, slightly on FH or BH with dead or underspin

* finally i want to know whether the other can read a dead ball (on a service return or during rally) & what does the other do with a dead ball on FH & BH

... so kind'a like an American football game, first 20 plays are scripted

During the first game, do you have a favorite (or two) serve and to what location that gets you a tell on the other's game?

LDM7

Hi LDM7,
Before I post about the 3rd game, let’s talk about service plan!!
By the way BRS has faced some of my best serves!! He’s a strong player, and I felt he didn’t really struggle to much with them!!
Would be good to get some feedback BRS!!,

So unlike BRS, I tend to start a match with my BH serve which is an okay serve but not my strongest, it’s more reliable, not the best for disguise, but I can serve fast long, 1/2 long and short with spin variation and a similar action. Placement variation I find easier with my BH serve as well.
Sometimes I only use the BH serve for the whole of the 1st end.
If my opponent struggles to read my BH serve, then it’s gonna be likely they may struggle with some of my more deceptive FH serves.
Perhaps I should use some FH serves more??

I think that what you have described is pretty good, it’s about exploring how your opponent copes with your serves, remember what they do and don’t like, perhaps hold 1 serve variation back somewhat if they really struggle with it, keep it up your sleeve for important service points.
If your opponent is any good, they will learn to play their returns better as the match progresses, but sometimes there are serves that we/they just can’t deal with!!

The serve plan may be focused to find what the opponent likes / dislikes, but it should also be geared to your 3rd ball attack, how you would like the receive to come back and which stroke you are hoping to use. As BRS stated if the opponent receives well, doesn’t appeared troubled, places returns where you don’t want them, then you’ll have to rethink !!!

 

[IB66]

Last and 3rd game in the Monday night match was against a lady called Kim. I met her on the last day of the level 1 coaches course early September. I had never played her though.
attributes - FH drive/BH drive, no loops on either wing. Solid consistency with pushes FH and BH, blocking was average. Serves - nothing special, not much variation.
Kim’s rating is maybe a few points behind that of the 1st lady I played, she is very bouncy!! Moves pretty well. Stays close to the table. Very similar style to the 1st lady, but doesn’t drop back as much.
scores were 11-6, 7-11, 11-5 & 11-6 With myself being the victor.

This game I just got in earlier, what I should have done against the lady I lost to. Opening loops good, Looped well FH and BH in rally, served well. Got to use my strengths earlier. Kim couldn’t counter my loops well, couldn’t block them well enough, My FH loop and BH topspin won the match for me coupled with a good serves and 3rd & 5th ball attack.
I lost the 2nd end, unforced errors crept in and to Kim’s credit she raised her consistency & played better.
So happy that I didn’t get drawn into a push push rally game!!!

 

[IB66]

Last post (probably) today!!
I played a second match on Wednesday night!!
This time the opposition was known to me.

Dave, I have played with him for a few years now. I usually win the majority of practice games we have played, but on his night he can be a tough cookie. This was our 1st proper match against each other for different clubs.
He has had a pretty rough 6 months or so, Skin Cancer on his face, recovered well and is currently all clear. More recently Shingles, which can be real nasty for the more elderly. He is a really decent fella as well.
result v Dave was 1-11, 7-11 & 8-11, I expected to win and did, 1st end I was 0-10 up and throughout this end my ‘self talk’ was come on Dave win a frickin point!! I couldn’t bring myself to post a 0-11 score , served off the table!! Then served a serve he struggles with 1-11.
Subconsciously I eased off more than consciously in the next 2 games, and Dave played more to his usual level.

Rai, I have played casually with him at some summer sessions. Never in a match.
3-11, 5-11 & 9-11 to me.
Serves caused him problems, many easy points, FH loop was on fire in this match!! I didn’t let him in, he gas a reasonable FH and BH topspin in topspin rallies, can push ok, but doesn’t open up well v backspin, but really tries to.
comfortable win, eased up in the 3rd, but was in control.

Sunil, Previously I have played Sunil once in a match, and once at the summer sessions Rai runs,
I lost on both occasions 2-3, both were very tight matches and I was expecting the same tight ends this week.
He has some solid shots, FH and BH drive, topspin’s but not really an out and out loop. Blocks well on both wings, ok at pushing, but doesn’t play out and out pushing game. Prefers to stay close and counter against topspin play with blocks and drives. Serves are pretty standard affair, does vary spin but not greatly. Doesn’t take too many risks, more of a counter attacking player. If the ball does pop up he has enough power to put away the loose ball.

Scorecard, 9-11, 12-14, 12-10 & 8-11
Very close match!! I was playing pretty well and needed to, all in all we were even and maybe the deciding factor was my serving and 3rd/5th ball attack. He struggled with my FH hook serve, all variations. After the match he said that he had filmed my serves when I played Rai. He said he could see the different spins but reading the serve on table was much harder.
I managed to stay pretty loose at the crucial end of game points, didn’t tense up.
Because he is well grounded all round ( at our level anyway!) it is difficult to pinpoint a big weak point and capitalise on it. The main difference was definitely my serves.
I didn’t feel comfortable as far as ‘knowing’ I was going to win, I was always in front in ends 1,2 & 4 and kept going feel that I could close out the close games instead of loosing them like I had in previous matches, I went in a little to hung ho in those. This time I was more restrained still attacked but not all out, more controlled, this paid off for me, also the breathing control and relaxing really helped.

This week has been a good week for me, played 6 won 5 lost 1, I’ll take that all week long!!!

 

[LDM7]

Hi LDM7,

Greetings IB66:

Hope you are fit and well, I am I right in thinking you played on Friday evening? How did it go?

=> Working on losing some LBs, taking stress off of joints, tendons & knees

=> Church was closed (to TT) due to a private event, so I took the night off for maintenance & recovery

it was the 1st end of the night and maybe not warmed up / tuned in enough, so I think she was 0-3 up then we won equal amount of points

=> I am learning that league night (Monday) is just that i.e. round robbin matches (3 ~ 4), it's not a training session

=> so I am limiting my warm-up to about 15 ~ 20 mins, but adding a game (keeping score) to further prepare myself mentally (& physically) that competition has started

=> Your tale of initial 2 ends spurred my thoughts of "How to Play The First Game" in order to get information on the other. Someone told me the two ways to play the first end are 1) try to dominate or 2) find out the other's weaknesses

=> I think a hybrid approach offers the opportunity for both. This is why I started thinking about what type of serves, to what location on the table, relative to the other's table position & stance would give me useful information (preference, tendencies, weaknesses ... etc) rather than just putting my serves out there

too many pushes, didn’t open up quick enough, as soon as that ball was past the end of the table I should have been on it with a loop

=> I can relate; this is my top priority for the rest of this quarter i.e. decline less, look to open MORE (even if it means I miss my open more, for me - IT'S ABOUT PLAYING THE RIGHT WAY AND BE BETTER THAN YESTERDAY)

pushing that 1st ball back gave her the chance to dictate and move the ball and me about

=> did you push 1st ball at her middle mainly or opened up the angle to one of two sides?

=> could it also be the "quality" (depth & location, type of spin & speed) of your 1st push that allowed her to dictate?

Self-talk & Staying Relaxed

=> I like how you keep yourself focused yet relaxed & hopeful (regardless of the momentum & score)
=> I have developed a service ritual that includes looking at where the other is standing & how opponent holds racket (maybe even looking under table at opponent's feet once in awhile, there's no rule against that ... I don't think)
=> I have also become more deliberate in-between each point to include table touch re-set, slowing pace down, a wipe of my shirt when I missed the previous point, the placement & folding of my towel ...)
=> Per you, I want to start paying attention to breathing & a relaxed state

When you are trying to get out of that push push type of game, that type of game you have played for a few years, because that’s how you played at a lower standard. It can be hard to really implement what you really want to do, especially if you make errors, then the ‘let’s get the ball back’ mentality kicks in and you push!!

=> when the pressure is on (close game or missing) I resort to what's safe & natural to me i.e. push the ball back, the problem = I DO THAT TOO MUCH ON MY BH SIDE

=> Again, for the rest of this year I am re-conditioning my brain, looking for BH opportunities to flick, counter or loop vs a backspin ball at me ... AND THAT WOULLD BE THE BEST XMAS PRESENT I CAN GIVE TO MYSELF THIS SEASON!

Ta' Ta'

LDM7

 

[IB66]

Towards the end of tight games we start to feel the pressure more. In a few ways, body/muscles tense up, mentally we add pressure either consciously or subconsciously. We can go into safety mode, push the ball more or too much, afraid of making a mistake, or go the other way and attack without really choosing the right moment!!!
How many times have you watched other people playing a tight game and seen BOTH players go into push mode??!!! Even though they don’t ‘normally’ play that way!! I’ve seen it loads of times more so at our standard or level.
There’s a saying - “Fortune favours the bold” “fortune favours the brave” This is something to think on!!
In those tight situations, I think that being bold and brave is the way to go mentally, positive, not stand off ish or too conservative / negative.

After all, what’s the worse that can happen?? You lose a match. It’s not like your life depends on it!!!

Getting the BALANCE right at crucial points or times during a game is what’s needed, maybe this also comes with experience, learning how to have the right mental attitude and confidence.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Towards the end of tight games we start to feel the pressure more. In a few ways, body/muscles tense up, mentally we add pressure either consciously or subconsciously. We can go into safety mode, push the ball more or too much, afraid of making a mistake, or go the other way and attack without really choosing the right moment!!!
How many times have you watched other people playing a tight game and seen BOTH players go into push mode??!!! Even though they don’t ‘normally’ play that way!! I’ve seen it loads of times more so at our standard or level.
There’s a saying - “Fortune favours the bold” “fortune favours the brave” This is something to think on!!
In those tight situations, I think that being bold and brave is the way to go mentally, positive, not stand off ish or too conservative / negative.

After all, what’s the worse that can happen?? You lose a match. It’s not like your life depends on it!!!

Getting the BALANCE right at crucial points or times during a game is what’s needed, maybe this also comes with experience, learning how to have the right mental attitude and confidence.

I'm more likely to lose a tight game by doing something in a rush than starting pushing...

for example missing my own serve, trying to attack a ball too early before getting in the good position...

 

[IB66]

I'm more likely to lose a tight game by doing something in a rush than starting pushing...

for example missing my own serve, trying to attack a ball too early before getting in the good position...

That can also happen, being too keen!!! getting the balance right between over keen to end the point quickly, and overcautious !!! Picking the right shot at the right time.

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM 7 has some terrible results from local league to post, he will spell it out. One of his wins is against a long time player higher than LDM7's standard. LDM7 went to teh wire in the 5th last time vs him, so that says LDM7 is at a level to compete with Sam on any night, which means his play level in league is prolly a couple hundred points better than a few months ago.

 

[LDM7]

LDM 7 has some terrible results from local league to post, he will spell it out. One of his wins is against a long time player higher than LDM7's standard. LDM7 went to teh wire in the 5th last time vs him, so that says LDM7 is at a level to compete with Sam on any night, which means his play level in league is prolly a couple hundred points better than a few months ago.

Nothing Breeds Success Than Success Itself!

I am thrilled to say that as the lowest seed of a 6 player group, I bested two higher seeded plyrs (3 - 0 & 3 - 1 ) whom jst two weeks ago i lost to (both) in 5th ends by within a few points

there is progress here 👏

I am cautiously optimistic about my development though (keeping a level head), knowing recent matches also revealed holes & deficiencies in my game that i need to improve

Let's Do Work!

LDM7

 

[IB66]

Nothing Breeds Success Than Success Itself!

I am thrilled to say that as the lowest seed of a 6 player group, I bested two higher seeded plyrs (3 - 0 & 3 - 1 ) whom jst two weeks ago i lost to (both) in 5th ends by within a few points

there is progress here 👏

I am cautiously optimistic about my development though (keeping a level head), knowing recent matches also revealed holes & deficiencies in my game that i need to improve

Let's Do Work!

LDM7

Hi LDM7,

Your game is definitely looking much better!!!
keep working hard and more results will come.

 

[Der_Echte]

Ultimately, the results I would like to see for LDM7 would be in sanctioned USATT tourneys in this (strong) No Cal Bay Area region. I have done my best to articulate to LDM7 that it usually takes a minimum of 6 months for improvement in training to translate into improvement in sanctioned events or even "more important" special tourneys (like the recent Sacramento China Day Natl Foundation teams tourneys - where another guy I coach was on the winning team) (we had long discussions during matches about tourney pressure and who caves/how).

Still, seeing measurable progress this early is very encouraging and an indicator of LDM7's improved base level. He is already knowing when he does something wrong, and like me, is not very happy about at that moment... but later properly rationalizes it as simply wanting it and not being there yet.

It is all a process, several ones, and get repeated, it can be a drain emotionally, or an uplifting experience, depending on one's temperament and outlook at the time.

This small component of the mental aspect of strategic development is a fascinating thing to examine in any light.

 

[LDM7]

Hi LDM7,

Your game is definitely looking much better!!!
keep working hard and more results will come.

heLL0 IB66 & Der,

I decided to continue our discussion in this thread b/c I can no longer deal with the vertical lines on our chain emails, the body gets narrower & narrower

i have found watching the video while going over your comments particularly useful (clarity)

Yes IB66, the 5th end second ball (26:01) was a short, dead (low spin) to my FH I was able to flick cross-court, gain control, forcing him into a mistake and win this point

I have noted in my match journal (I keep on every plyr) that by flicking his short serves, forces him to serve me 1/2 long or deep, I now can be more prepared to put pressure on him by looping

Recent league matches also revealed the following weak links in my game:

• Serve, set & give space to 3rd ball
• transitional rally balls, need to be further back from the table (foot-work)
• it's time to add active block to my game (looking for more punch on my blocks)
• a little more work needed on my BH (video clearly shows ...)
• a whole lot more work needed on the most important skill in Pinga Ponga i.e. service return
• and of course, be comfortable to LET THE BALL COME TO ME (not reaching, especially on the BH side)

Der & I are having lunch tomorrow, discussing how best approach improving

Looking forward to watching your video IB66, be reminded to get into the first game of the first match quicker (mentally), perhaps play a practice game during warm up (keep score), focus on playing the right way (not necessarily jst the result), compete and have fun!

LDM7

 

[Der_Echte]

There will be too many possible things to talk about and so many possible ways to approach and structure it that no single way will be the ultimate.

I think LDM7 will be happy for the choice of venue and fare.

I just back from goofing off at JZ's C.H. location and played in BIRKENSTOCKS. (Yes, I didn't pack my court shoes for the 4th time in 8 visits there.)

There can be a lot to gain over time goofing off, you discover things and improve touch without the pressure of training and failing. It is actually a happy form of training, especially if you can cause trouble and help others improve and who damn cares if one ends up pissing of another professional coach for the free help. I think LDM7 benefited from an extra set of eyes on his league matches a few weeks back too, he started to get results after that.

 

[LDM7]

I always serve pendulum side-under to the short middle in my first four serves, unless playing vs long pips in which case sidespin is out. It's my highest-quality spin serve. I want them to push it long to my backhand so I can open with the pips. Most people do that.

Some people backhand flick. At my level a lot more players think they can flick like LYJ than really can. Those I will give pure side or side top next so they flick it off.

The trouble comes with opponents who touch that serve back short and low to my forehand or middle. Mike Tyson famously said 'Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.' That receive executed easily and well is the TT equivalent of a punch in the face. One of my most reliable serves just got taken out of play, and I have a problem already only a few points into the match.

Hi BRS,

vs a right handed plyr, inverted both sides, what is your reason for serving the other four serves the same in a row (pendulum side-under middle table)?

LDM7

 

[Der_Echte]

I like this question and what LDM7 is trying to learn here. Brs, if anyone has paid attention to his writings over the last years, is easily a reasonable voice to be heard.

 

[Rimille]

I loose my own games because of missing concentrations and emotions. Hard to take care of my own problems.