How many loops do you hit in practice?

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Not sure if this has been discussed before.

I am working on improving my consistency in FH loops. My highest so far is around 21-24. Average about 15. I hit crosscourt and my coach blocks it anywhere on my FH side with cut/sidespin/punch variations.

Is there any number beyond which one's FH loop can be considered to be solid? How many do you hit? Do you guys hit over 50 on a regular basis? I presume people who represent their province will hit over 50 loops against random blocks anywhere on the table..
 
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I don't do much training in the area of looping consistency, most of my training is for third ball attack. I guess consistenly looping 30-50 balls is great practice against blocks, but really at the end of the day do you want to find yourself in a match having to hit that many balls for one point?

Great for technical consistency but I prefer to practice opening first ball and then trying to win the point in successive 5th, 7th ball loops etc. So really I'm not sure how many loops I can hit in a row, a few :p haha
 
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I don't do much training in the area of looping consistency, most of my training is for third ball attack. I guess consistenly looping 30-50 balls is great practice against blocks, but really at the end of the day do you want to find yourself in a match having to hit that many balls for one point?

Great for technical consistency but I prefer to practice opening first ball and then trying to win the point in successive 5th, 7th ball loops etc. So really I'm not sure how many loops I can hit in a row, a few :p haha

Matt is quite right. I myself don't really know how many loops I do in training. I usually do it as part of my warm up routine. But since you mentioned consistency I would say 50 with easy looping (staying at the same spot) is very do-able with a good blocker, but intense looping with footwork, I would say 15-20.

I wouldn't fancy being in a rally where I have to loop 20 times against a blocker to win a point :) hehe Keep it short and sweet I'd say.
 
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Thanks Matt and Azlan!
Interesting.. I suppose what you practice depends on which level you are as a player.. Let's breakdown the shot: Getting the correct body balance, weight-shift, focusing on the contact point of the block, taking small steps to adjust for the incoming ball, taking it at the correct height and hitting with good spin.. I am a beginner.. For me, all this doesn't come involuntarily. So, repetition matters a lot. Initially I used to hit only 5, slowly got it to 10 and now 20. What has happened is my mindset has changed. Earlier I used to hit baby loops because I was never sure my loops will land and I used to hit only really high balls. Now I feel more confident and consequently I get a bit more on my loop.
I had this habit of holding the bat too stiff due to playing with GKI Kung-fu and other dead bats. It's been a struggle to let go of this. It affects my consistency. Now, I get stiff during a point when my 3rd loop is also blocked. I run out of ideas of where to hit. Say, I hit 2 crosscourt and 1 down the line. If the last one is returned, I get tensed and try to finish off the point rather than calmly believing I can hit 5 more loops..
My coach says once I hit 50 loops I will be able to hit FH instinctively. He is currently trying to push me over 25. He knows what to do/say to get me going! :)

Another question to Matt and Azlan, when you were beginners getting the technical aspects correct, how many did you use to hit?
 
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Let me tell you this buddy. I've seen countless intermediate and beginners having problems finishing a point. :) You see them at the warm up table with perfect strokes, but once when it really matters, they have problems hitting good shots. They may be able to get 2 loops in, but the opponents will capitalize on their inability to finish a point. You tightened up coz you ran out of ideas.:) The problem is the shots that you get at the end with these sort of trainings, is the lack of penetrations. You're not putting your opponents under pressure with your loops.

Honestly, I can't remember how many loops I was able to do when I was younger coz it's not a priority for my coach. Here's what he did with us.

Get a sparring partner/blocker. Do a FH to FH loop rally 3 times, then you try and finish the point the quickest/best way you can, by...placement, varying your spins/speed, swerving the ball, angles etc. All your partner has to do is to get the ball back in any way he can (make sure there are quality returns, not those sky balls from the very start.) Then change, you defend and he attack. Whatever you guys do..make sure you finish it. If the ball goes to your BH, try running around to get it, but if you can't, just use your BH and get the ball in play and start your offence again. It's a lot more fun and it'll develop better footwork/stamina. This method I find is the best way to create muscle memory..before you know it it's instinctive.
 
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Let me tell you this buddy. I've seen countless intermediate and beginners having problems finishing a point. :) You see them at the warm up table with perfect strokes, but once when it really matters, they have problems hitting good shots. They may be able to get 2 loops in, but the opponents will capitalize on their inability to finish a point. You tightened up coz you ran out of ideas.:) The problem is the shots that you get at the end with these sort of trainings, is the lack of penetrations. You're not putting your opponents under pressure with your loops.

Honestly, I can't remember how many loops I was able to do when I was younger coz it's not a priority for my coach. Here's what he did with us.

Get a sparring partner/blocker. Do a FH to FH loop rally 3 times, then you try and finish the point the quickest/best way you can, by...placement, varying your spins/speed, swerving the ball, angles etc. All your partner has to do is to get the ball back in any way he can (make sure there are quality returns, not those sky balls from the very start.) Then change, you defend and he attack. Whatever you guys do..make sure you finish it. If the ball goes to your BH, try running around to get it, but if you can't, just use your BH and get the ball in play and start your offence again. It's a lot more fun and it'll develop better footwork/stamina. This method I find is the best way to create muscle memory..before you know it it's instinctive.

Totally agree, slow loops with no penetration is useless, it's much better to do 10 loops of very high quality rather than 100 loops where you're just returning the ball comfortably to your partner....all the top players ramp up the quality of their shots(high speed and spin) until the practice partner can no longer block the shots, that usually takes less than 10 shots.... look at the training videos if you don't believe it...
 
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I usually do 100 loops for the frenquency will heat my body
 
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Doing MANY loops consecutively in practice is OK to develop the stroke and make muscle memory for the baseline shot. Good for that. Doesn't help you much when you have to move, get a position, stay on balance, make shot, recover, get back to nuetral stance and position relative to where you expect the ball.

Having the blocker block to different areas you know is one step forward, then combo drills are another step forward and so are random drills where blocker blocks it anywhere but you won't know. Any combo drill where you have to open, get a block or counter and keep attacking for pressure or a winner is even better in getting one where they need to make the loop a match ready stroke.

There are jokers in my club who can do 200 FAST FH to FH drives without a miss in my club, but they are 3-4 divisions below me. When I first saw what a Korean club looked like, I thought they lowest players were 2 divisions above me. I might be able to do anywhere from 2-20 of the same FH light spin/fast speed drive before I miss. I might be able to do only 5-20 FH medium fast or very fast, but very spinny loops before I miss where coach keeps blocking to FH, but the combo drills I do really help me to finish points in a match one I get the initiative. They also help my skillz to move to the ball and keep balance and recovery. I value being skilled and consistant with the loop, but I also value being able to apply my different loops effectively in a match with combinations that will put me in a position as an offensive player to win points. As my skill increases, so does my landing percentage and ability to "Hang" with the big boys in matches. It is all about you and your coach's approach.

Most Korean Coaches take your approach and go for very high consistancy before moving on to more difficult stuff. They have a very good system. For some unknown reason, (maybe my reluctance to hit hundreds of balls consecutively, but being very good at spinning and powering the ball), coach decided to quickly move me to footwork, combination, single ball, and match related situational stuff. it sure wears me out and makes me a better player in the 2 years I trained here. Moved up 2 divisions in under two years while many of the same players in my club are still div 4 or div 3 players.

Just something to consider and in NO WAY will I say something negative about your approach. You can probably many loop more balls RIGHT NOW consecutively than I ever will, but I focus more on what will get me points in a match - things like setting up my opener, landing it heavy spin and high percentage, anticipating the return & keeping up pressure, moving to my spots and finishing with power or placement depending on what I created or opponent gave me. Many of my rallies end in 3-5 balls. 10-20 percent go over that with maybe 2 loop to loop rallies in an entire game that go 3-5 loops for each of us. Reading the spin, being in position, and decision making among other things are things that kill players at my level and below.

Maybe I make another post where on OOAK, I described many faults players have that keep them from being an average or slightly above average club player...
 
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OK, here is the OOAK post I made. USATT 1500 is average USA or Korean TT club player. 2000 level will get you into div 2 in my city of strong div 4 national level in Korea.

Many players under 1500 rating can have practice strokes that look 2000, but some thing(s) is/are keeping their game performance from being close to their practice strokes.

There can be a lot of reasons for this. I list some of them, they overlap a lot of what is said already. I see a ton of players here in Korea on the rise who can bang FH to FH all day long and not miss, but come game time, it is a different story. I have asked some new players at our club with some good looking FH drives to play doubles, only for the coach to advise against it as their game is not game-ready yet. Of course not every 1500, 1600, 2000, 2200 level player is the same or does the same stuff, but some general things apply to most.

A few reasons why players do not crack 1500. A lot of what I write applies even to some 2000 level players, but they are obviously further along the path to correcting the deficiencies. Last post, I kept it simple, here, I expound a little bit.

Some reasons why TT players do not reach 1500, 1800, 2000 levels.

1) Cannot properly read spin
2) Cannot be in position for shots
3) Strike the ball out of their optimal strike zone
4) Cannot receive serve
5) Have little spin variation on serve or it is too obvious
6) Do not control depth of serve, nor the height, nor the break, not the location of bounce on serve
7) Make a nice attack, but are unprepared to continue the attack. One block by opponent wins the point.
8..Try for too much power by lifting their elbow or bending backwards, that creates an attack that might land, but player is way off balance to do anything afterwards.
9) Poor balance, stance, and play too upright
10) Try to make power shots (without max spin) when ball has dropped below table
11) Reach for balls
12) Do not step in on serves that are short
13) Do not have courage to step in and flick, even if they know how to flick
14) Make poor decisions on which balls to attack
15) Do not make quality pushes - their push is attacked easily for a point
16) Do not make passing shots that carry light topspin, clear net low, and are difficult to attack and setup an attack for the next shot
17) Do not stay calm in match, easily distracted or upset, bothered by every noise
18) Do not construct points, have no plan how to setup their strong shots
19) Do not take advantage of the serve as a means to create an immediate offensive advantage
20) Grip the bat way too tight in a close point or juncture in a match
21) Use a grip that is difficult to transition form FH to BH and back to FH
22) Move too early before opponents hit the ball, open themselves to a ball hit by where they just were
23) Commit to a FH or BH return by moving arm and blade before opponent strikes ball, which gives away easy point
24) Do not stay close to the table to block to take advantage of time pressure and angles
25) Do not block off the bounce, reach for the block, do not adjust bat angles, do not block to difficult spot, do not know how to block soft, hard, or active
26) Do not have good depth on offensive shots, lands too shallow and allows opponent to easily counter attack
27) Do not generate heavy spin, spin they make is too weak and easy to counter or block
28) Do not know how to vary the spin on attacks and do not attack at different speeds
29) Land attacks, but not at a high enough percentage, inconsistant, lose too many points attacking balls that should be high percentage
30) Attack the "wrong" balls, make poor decisions on which stroke to use
31) Do not have a trained sequence of combinations to attack or block. One block from player's attack or one continued attack from players block is the end of the road - no further plan on how to continue.
32) Do not use enough wrist in loops, lose too much spin. Do not use the whole body. Often raise playing elbow our scrunch shoulder instead of lowering waist and exploding throught the strike zone.
33) Do not know which serves will get which kind of likely return.
34) Do not adapt as match goes on. Try to win using the same tactic or shot, even if opponent has proved he can handle it.
35) Does not have a dependable BH loop opener or BH power shot (shakehand players)
36) Move too far from table to counter
37) Do not move in to hit balls that do not kick towards players, such as a slow, very light underspin or a no-spin ball
38) Too scared to attack, even when presented with a good attacking chance, push balls they shoul loop, then find themselves defending a strong attack.
39) Do not learn what troubles an opponent or what shots give the player a better ball to attack
40) Do not stay crouched in point, do not make a good first step
41) Do not use 2 step or crossover footwork with balance, cannot move to the wide FH to attack, then bounce back towards nuetral position to cope with the return
42) Get scared when they see opponent use heavy topspin, instead of using it as an opportunity to block or counter to disrupt his timing
43) Do not seek to play vs a variety of styles. Ex, can play OK vs a similar attacking topspinner, but fail vs Short Pips BH or LP players
44) Very indecisive or overdecisive
45) Frequently move the hitting elbow forward before impact, reduces power, spin, landing % - that uses mostly shoulder which is too weak compared to using whole body
46) Do not observe strengths/weaknesses of opponents beofre match
47) Do not have an understanding of where to strike the ball (back of ball, top of ball, slightly under the ball) for diffenent incoming balls
48) Backswing pusts racket way too low for an incoming topspin ball, causes player to swing upwards and often long/out
49) Can open vs underspin with an upwards lifting stroke, then use the very same stroke to attack the block, which is usally a light topspin. Result is fail
50) Use the wrist wrong. Use too much slap, (the part of wrist motion that can have a 90 degree range instead of wrist pivot (the part of wrist that has a 30 degree range in each direction
51) Try to wrap around the ball, instead of simply using a consistant swing plane and explode through the ball.

I'll stop at 51 beofre any of you throw a frypan at me.
 
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Thanks Matt and Azlan!
Interesting.. I suppose what you practice depends on which level you are as a player.. Let's breakdown the shot: Getting the correct body balance, weight-shift, focusing on the contact point of the block, taking small steps to adjust for the incoming ball, taking it at the correct height and hitting with good spin.. I am a beginner.. For me, all this doesn't come involuntarily. So, repetition matters a lot. Initially I used to hit only 5, slowly got it to 10 and now 20. What has happened is my mindset has changed. Earlier I used to hit baby loops because I was never sure my loops will land and I used to hit only really high balls. Now I feel more confident and consequently I get a bit more on my loop.
I had this habit of holding the bat too stiff due to playing with GKI Kung-fu and other dead bats. It's been a struggle to let go of this. It affects my consistency. Now, I get stiff during a point when my 3rd loop is also blocked. I run out of ideas of where to hit. Say, I hit 2 crosscourt and 1 down the line. If the last one is returned, I get tensed and try to finish off the point rather than calmly believing I can hit 5 more loops..
My coach says once I hit 50 loops I will be able to hit FH instinctively. He is currently trying to push me over 25. He knows what to do/say to get me going! :)

Another question to Matt and Azlan, when you were beginners getting the technical aspects correct, how many did you use to hit?

Well my coach when I was younger was a chopper, so looping was a lot more difficult for me lol depends how young you are talking, I'm only 22 now (still young?) aha
 
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Wow.. a lot of valuable tips.. thanks Azlan and Der_Echte! lots to think about now.. I will print the list and post it on my door as a constant reminder.

I have to work on depth of my loops. Two of my current practice buddies are counter players.. They don't loop much and they don't move well. They are very good at hitting a counter on my loop. So they make me think twice about looping to their FH. It's irritating to see someone smash your loop, even if the smash goes out. :(

@Matt, at 22 you're very young.. :)
 
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Wow.. a lot of valuable tips.. thanks Azlan and Der_Echte! lots to think about now.. I will print the list and post it on my door as a constant reminder.

I have to work on depth of my loops. Two of my current practice buddies are counter players.. They don't loop much and they don't move well. They are very good at hitting a counter on my loop. So they make me think twice about looping to their FH. It's irritating to see someone smash your loop, even if the smash goes out. :(

@Matt, at 22 you're very young.. :)

No worries mate. Matt has loads of experience, and it's worth to sit up and take notice what he said.:) He's 22 yrs old now, when he said when he was younger, that was only a few years back!! hehehe I'm sure all the trainings he did when he was 'younger' are still fresh in his mind.

About your sparring buddies, you have to move them around a little, make them move with your placements, angles, degree of pace and spin..generally make them uncomfortable. They will hate that:)
 
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Hey.. yeah.. I never meant to say that Matt is not experienced.. Sorry if I came across that way.. I have been learning the game for less than a year and it would be stupid of me to say that about anyone.

Yes.. you're right.. if I keep varying the placement on my loops I win. It's just that sometimes I try to see if I can loop their counter as well, only in vain.. :)
 
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Hey.. yeah.. I never meant to say that Matt is not experienced.. Sorry if I came across that way.. I have been learning the game for less than a year and it would be stupid of me to say that about anyone.

Yes.. you're right.. if I keep varying the placement on my loops I win. It's just that sometimes I try to see if I can loop their counter as well, only in vain.. :)

No mate, I didn't mean that at all...:) I'm just saying that he's a good TT player, that's all haha Usually if someone counter your loop, they will always have their favorite spot to hit, maybe your FH or BH. You can predict after a while coz they often fall into a pattern.
 
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