Rebulding Fundamental strokes for my game play

[NextLevel]

Siva,

Youtube has slow motion settings that we can all use if we really want to. You can post the video at regular speed if the goal is to get insights and let people do the slow motion themselves. Of course, if you want the video to be a form of art, which is a noble goal as well, you can do whatever you have in mind.

There feels like there is more upper arm motion than ideal. TRy to keep the elbow low.

It would also help to put a camera behind you for a few shots so we can look at your stance and arm mechanics more closely. My first impression watching the video was that you were probably not relaxing the elbow, forearm and wrist enough but it could also be a function of the camera angle since I can't see how your wrist behaves on the backswing and not everyone has a relaxed wrist on their forehand loops on the follow through.

As a good server, I think you can do much more with whipping the forearm and wrist into the ball to brush and get maximum spin. You almost seem to be mailing it in on the arm mechanics. Challenge yourself on the brushing of the ball.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Siva,

Youtube has slow motion settings that we can all use if we really want to. You can post the video at regular speed if the goal is to get insights and let people do the slow motion themselves. Of course, if you want the video to be a form of art, which is a noble goal as well, you can do whatever you have in mind.

There feels like there is more upper arm motion than ideal. TRy to keep the elbow low.

It would also help to put a camera behind you for a few shots so we can look at your stance and arm mechanics more closely. My first impression watching the video was that you were probably not relaxing the elbow, forearm and wrist enough but it could also be a function of the camera angle since I can't see how your wrist behaves on the backswing and not everyone has a relaxed wrist on their forehand loops on the follow through.

As a good server, I think you can do much more with whipping the forearm and wrist into the ball to brush and get maximum spin. You almost seem to be mailing it in on the arm mechanics. Challenge yourself on the brushing of the ball.

Youtube has slow motion settings that we can all use if we really want to

It seems so, I totally forgot the new features, I wasn't actually thinking in terms of artistic sort, but to make the video palatable. Hey, I just checked those feautres once again, so there is the way to increase the speed as well, by playing 2x, It looks the same as a normal video.

Ha, this upper arm motion pisses me off. I ll try my best to reduce it further. I just checked the video again, elbow position changes, Is it really important to have it fixed?

I ll go for some shots from my behind next time. Actually I thought I relaxed a little bit than my usual but it seems not so. I am thinking about an analogy of how a boxer delivers a punch. Yeah, more whipping can be done. I ll try next time to add theses elements into play.

 

[NextLevel]

It seems so, I totally forgot the new features, I wasn't actually thinking in terms of artistic sort, but to make the video palatable. Hey, I just checked those feautres once again, so there is the way to increase the speed as well, by playing 2x, It looks the same as a normal video.

Ha, this upper arm motion pisses me off. I ll try my best to reduce it further. I just checked the video again, elbow position changes, Is it really important to have it fixed?

I ll go for some shots from my behind next time. Actually I thought I relaxed a little bit than my usual but it seems not so. I am thinking about an analogy of how a boxer delivers a punch. Yeah, more whipping can be done. I ll try next time to add theses elements into play.

Think about the kinetic chain of a whip (which is the mechanic we are looking for) and what it means when the shoulder moves. Whips move much faster than snapper does and the shoulder motion ruins the whip effect.

Grab a towel or a whip. Try to make it snap. You will see that it snaps best when you have violent stops. If your upper arm is moving, you don't get a violent stop. OF course, if you know how to use the lower arm correctly, you can sacrifice some of that violent stop for some upper arm power as pros do, but we need to make sure you have the right feeling of whip mechanics in the lower arm.

What I do is straighten the arm, probably a little less in faster rallies but try to keep some whip like tension in it at all times, so it won't be fully straight. I try to avoid moving my upper arm and then I throw my core forward and stop violently. This will throw my lower arm forward and fast into the ball and if I relax my wrist, my wrist will be thrown violently into the ball as well. This will give me extremely fast racket head speed with very good acceleration for spin - if I bent my knees and used proper form for a full stroke, I would get lots of power as well - remember, forearm and wrist for spin, core/body for power. The range of motion of the upper arm will be fairly small relative to the core. If the stroke is too large around the shoulder, then the snapping motion is either less violent or taxes the shoulder more, neither of which is desirable.

IF you look at the wrist action of a high level looper, on the backswing, you should see some unconscious/reflex recoil of the wrist as it snaps back. On some of them, you also see some recoil of the wrist as it snaps forward in the follow throw. This is what using the arm like a whip really looks like. When people look at my form and say that I don't bend my knees, I don't have good footwork etc. yet I get a ton of spin, that is where all the spin is coming from.

 

[NextLevel]

I guess what I am trying to say is that because you are not snapping your elbow/forearm correctly, the stroke is limited by the speed of your core and upper arm. This is where I hope your experience serving will help you fix the issue faster.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Think about the kinetic chain of a whip (which is the mechanic we are looking for) and what it means when the shoulder moves. Whips move much faster than snapper does and the shoulder motion ruins the whip effect.

Grab a towel or a whip. Try to make it snap. You will see that it snaps best when you have violent stops. If your upper arm is moving, you don't get a violent stop. OF course, if you know how to use the lower arm correctly, you can sacrifice some of that violent stop for some upper arm power as pros do, but we need to make sure you have the right feeling of whip mechanics in the lower arm.

What I do is straighten the arm, probably a little less in faster rallies but try to keep some whip like tension in it at all times, so it won't be fully straight. I try to avoid moving my upper arm and then I throw my core forward and stop violently. This will throw my lower arm forward and fast into the ball and if I relax my wrist, my wrist will be thrown violently into the ball as well. This will give me extremely fast racket head speed with very good acceleration for spin - if I bent my knees and used proper form for a full stroke, I would get lots of power as well - remember, forearm and wrist for spin, core/body for power. The range of motion of the upper arm will be fairly small relative to the core. If the stroke is too large around the shoulder, then the snapping motion is either less violent or taxes the shoulder more, neither of which is desirable.

IF you look at the wrist action of a high level looper, on the backswing, you should see some unconscious/reflex recoil of the wrist as it snaps back. On some of them, you also see some recoil of the wrist as it snaps forward in the follow throw. This is what using the arm like a whip really looks like. When people look at my form and say that I don't bend my knees, I don't have good footwork etc. yet I get a ton of spin, that is where all the spin is coming from.

I just watched this video to understand what you mean, cool stuff

If the stroke is too large around the shoulder, then the snapping motion is either less violent or taxes the shoulder more, neither of which is desirable.

These are the words I have to remember while practsing next time.

IF you look at the wrist action of a high level looper, on the backswing, you should see some unconscious/reflex recoil of the wrist as it snaps back. On some of them, you also see some recoil of the wrist as it snaps forward in the follow throw.

Could you share some video of what it means visually?

Thanks for the info NL

 

[NextLevel]

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

If I read it right, For Boll, the wrist relaxes after hitting the ball shortly, For WL, it relaxes around the end of the stroke. That video of Brett was cool stuff. But, in Jike and XX video their racket speed is so fast in slow motion that it is blind to my eyes.

 

[NextLevel]

Where you really need to look is at the end of the backswing. That is what sets up the rest of the stroke. It is much harder to catch at contact and follow through, especially on most pro forehands, though sometimes, you can see it. One of Ma Long's strokes has it pretty strongly even on the follow through and so does Ovtcharov. Boll of course has it all through his strokes as he is notorious for having one of the fastest wrists in table tennis.

It's a matter of degree and it varies with grip and stroke type as those will affect how the relaxation looks. If you get more power from other parts of the body, you may use more or less whip on some strokes from the wrist. But a relaxed wrist will show some measure of recoil. Many players have this recoil without knowing it and it is a feature of a good loop. I am 95% sure that you have some of this recoil as well. I am telling you that your mechanics could be improved to get more of it.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Where you really need to look is at the end of the backswing. That is what sets up the rest of the stroke. It is much harder to catch at contact and follow through, especially on most pro forehands, though sometimes, you can see it. One of Ma Long's strokes has it pretty strongly even on the follow through and so does Ovtcharov. Boll of course has it all through his strokes as he is notorious for having one of the fastest wrists in table tennis.

It's a matter of degree and it varies with grip and stroke type as those will affect how the relaxation looks. If you get more power from other parts of the body, you may use more or less whip on some strokes from the wrist. But a relaxed wrist will show some measure of recoil. Many players have this recoil without knowing it and it is a feature of a good loop. I am 95% sure that you have some of this recoil as well. I am telling you that your mechanics could be improved to get more of it.

Thanks for the detailed breakdown

 

[NextLevel]

This was the video Brett used when explaining this:

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I just checked the video again, elbow position changes, Is it really important to have it fixed?

NextLevel gave the important information. I don't know if I should say anything. Okay, it's more that I know I should leave things how he explained. But, well, I'm me.

To learn whip mechanics, yes. If you were able to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable, then there are more options. But until you can isolate the forearm, you need to learn to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable.

Perhaps I'll just say this cryptically. If what I just said wasn't the case, you wouldn't have so many fairly low level players trying to imitate Ma Long and ending up with a FH stroke that is hopelessly in need of fixing from the ground up!

And I think that's how you got into the trouble you are in where you need to change the mechanics of your FH stroke. Isn't it?


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

If you were able to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable, then there are more options. But until you can isolate the forearm, you need to learn to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable.

Perfect

If what I just said wasn't the case, you wouldn't have so many fairly low level players trying to imitate Ma Long and ending up with a FH stroke that is hopelessly in need of fixing from the ground up!

And I think that's how you got into the trouble you are in where you need to change the mechanics of your FH stroke. Isn't it?

That was way too funny man. Except you forgot to use the key while encrypting

hmm, I ll try , It takes like a month to beat a low level player called one FZD by some fellow low level player under the given opportunity of training everyday with them continuously

 

[NextLevel]

NextLevel gave the important information. I don't know if I should say anything. Okay, it's more that I know I should leave things how he explained. But, well, I'm me.

To learn whip mechanics, yes. If you were able to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable, then there are more options. But until you can isolate the forearm, you need to learn to isolate the forearm and keep the upper arm stable.

Perhaps I'll just say this cryptically. If what I just said wasn't the case, you wouldn't have so many fairly low level players trying to imitate Ma Long and ending up with a FH stroke that is hopelessly in need of fixing from the ground up!

And I think that's how you got into the trouble you are in where you need to change the mechanics of your FH stroke. Isn't it?


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I was going to say it like you said it but I doubt Siva would have been convinced enough to lock it down. Once you understand or can execute whip mechanics, table tennis gets transformed.

The other thing Siva is that when making changes like this, exaggeration tends to give you the best quick results.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I was going to say it like you said it but I doubt Siva would have been convinced enough to lock it down. Once you understand or can execute whip mechanics, table tennis gets transformed.

The other thing Siva is that when making changes like this, exaggeration tends to give you the best quick results.

exaggeration tends to give you the best quick results.

LOL, so true

Hey, Also Imagination gives that too na

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

LOL, so true

Hey, Also Imagination gives that too na

Not if your imagination tells you the stroke is good when it is not! Hahahahaha.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And I can't tell you how many times I imagined and swore I got my upper arm stable and was just using my forearm in my stroke, only to have Edmund say, "oh no you don't," then film and say: "the footage doesn't lie. Your upper arm is moving and your forearm is not."

It is hard to get that to happen when your habit is to do the stroke entirely from the upper arm and shoulder.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[NextLevel]

And I can't tell you how many times I imagined and swore I got my upper arm stable and was just using my forearm in my stroke, only to have Edmund say, "oh no you don't," then film and say: "the footage doesn't lie. Your upper arm is moving and your forearm is not."

It is hard to get that to happen when your habit is to do the stroke entirely from the upper arm and shoulder.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

People just don't know how hard this sport can be when you are trying to change a habit. Seriously. Whenever someone complains about doing stuff they are trying to change, you can tell if they know the drill or not.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I ll try to empahsize more on practice than imagination

 

[Der_Echte]

Surprised no one embedded this one yet !!!

 

[songdavid98]

And I can't tell you how many times I imagined and swore I got my upper arm stable and was just using my forearm in my stroke, only to have Edmund say, "oh no you don't," then film and say: "the footage doesn't lie. Your upper arm is moving and your forearm is not."

It is hard to get that to happen when your habit is to do the stroke entirely from the upper arm and shoulder.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Has anyone ever told you to pretend to do a salute (to the flag)?

The movement isn't the same, but it is similar. This forces you to use your forearm. Another tip is to try to get your hand to your forehead.

Don't hit your head with the paddle though.


Still trying to read through this thread. Is this is about rebuilding strokes after not playing for several years, or is it about fixing technique?