Rebulding Fundamental strokes for my game play

[Siva Schopenhauer]

@NL, @Carl, @Echte

Well said on the differences between touch, contact and strokes. I learned a lot from each one's unique approach

 

[NextLevel]

I thought kill stroke is same as a normal stroke but with much more time in milliseconds and some more power on them

Depends on the philosophy of the player. But that is like saying that the swing Ma Long uses when he counter loops is the same as the swing he uses when he gets an easy ball, just more powerful. You can use video to verify for yourself that this is not true for Ma Long. In fact, the biggest thing that distinguishes the top Chinese players from other top players is their varied stroke selection for adapting to the ball based mostly on arm length and finishing position. But even other top players have subtle differences as well which usually involve arm length and finishing position like the Chinese, just not as well developed for a variety of reasons (some argue equipment plays a modest role in modern play).

What happens when most uncoached amateurs watch Ma Long is that they get enamored with what is usually his kill stroke which he uses often because he sets up his opponents so well and can take advantage of the opportunities with increased athleticism. There are nuances but they get missed. And given the quality of balls one gets at the lower levels, it is easy to attack them with relatively bad technique with a higher reward than one deserves, which is what happens when one copies Ma Long without noting the nuances. If I play a much worse player, I could probably play the whole match using my version of Ma Long's stroke because my serves will give me enough easy balls and their defense js not good enough.

More time should be spent on trying to play a quality shot against a low tricky ball and this is what the standard loop gives you. This is the kind of ball that you would tend to get off a good return from your opponent and is similar to the kinds of shots you needed to play against the shots you were asking about in the video of your doubles match. Of course, maybe the balls could have been killed with the right technique but they were low enough that they required an approach that would give the ball topspin that would make it go over the net and dip back onto the table IIRC. Of course, what I call a standard loop might look like a kill shot to a beginner. Technique, speed and spin level is different.

Usually, there is a risk and reward calculation that goes into playing shots that take you off balance and sometimes, the level of the opponent is key. Even Ma Long plays shots that he finds relatively hard to recover from but the intent is clear. It is then about your respect for your opponent. If you know your opponent is going to bring back such shots, then you had better stop taking them without recovery and set him up better. But if not, why waste time with 3 or 4 shots when one will do? You may never see my backhand loop if you can't block my forehand loop.

The rub is that as you get better, one shot tends to work far less unless you set up your opponent adequately - better players block and fish down the ball too well for you to play one shot. So when you get your basic rally shot down, and you have your spinny third ball opening, then you then make choices about what shot to use when.

But learning to kill the ball all the time is fundamentally bad table tennis. Can you play that way up to a relatively high level, of course, because it is possible to be much better than your opponents and get lots of easy returns off good serves. But you would still need the tools to beat better players when they are not giving you the opportunity to do what you love to do. The basic loop is the first one.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah, Ability to reset is a crucial factor nah. Need to work on that. I just took a look at the second one. Ew, my forehand almost reaches the shoulder there. I don't know, maybe it takes as many hours of service as it does for such reprogramming. Since there is no time to deliberately think on such strokes, there comes the additional difficulty for correction.

Whether you can reset or not is a different issue. These shots, you are not even thinking of resetting. In your mind, they can't come back so you are just swinging hard, watching the shot and admiring it as it goes. So, maybe you can reset a lot faster. But you are definitely not even thinking of or trying to reset.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Depends on the philosophy of the player. But that is like saying that the swing Ma Long uses when he counter loops is the same as the swing he uses when he gets an easy ball, just more powerful. You can use video to verify for yourself that this is not true for Ma Long. In fact, the biggest thing that distinguishes the top Chinese players from other top players is their varied stroke selection for adapting to the ball based mostly on arm length and finishing position. But even other top players have subtle differences as well which usually involve arm length and finishing position like the Chinese, just not as well developed for a variety of reasons (some argue equipment plays a modest role in modern play).

What happens when most uncoached amateurs watch Ma Long is that they get enamored with what is usually his kill stroke which he uses often because he sets up his opponents so well and can take advantage of the opportunities with increased athleticism. There are nuances but they get missed. And given the quality of balls one gets at the lower levels, it is easy to attack them with relatively bad technique with a higher reward than one deserves, which is what happens when one copies Ma Long without noting the nuances. If I play a much worse player, I could probably play the whole match using my version of Ma Long's stroke because my serves will give me enough easy balls and their defense js not good enough.

More time should be spent on trying to play a quality shot against a low tricky ball and this is what the standard loop gives you. This is the kind of ball that you would tend to get off a good return from your opponent and is similar to the kinds of shots you needed to play against the shots you were asking about in the video of your doubles match. Of course, maybe the balls could have been killed with the right technique but they were low enough that they required an approach that would give the ball topspin that would make it go over the net and dip back onto the table IIRC. Of course, what I call a standard loop might look like a kill shot to a beginner. Technique, speed and spin level is different.

Usually, there is a risk and reward calculation that goes into playing shots that take you off balance and sometimes, the level of the opponent is key. Even Ma Long plays shots that he finds relatively hard to recover from but the intent is clear. It is then about your respect for your opponent. If you know your opponent is going to bring back such shots, then you had better stop taking them without recovery and set him up better. But if not, why waste time with 3 or 4 shots when one will do? You may never see my backhand loop if you can't block my forehand loop.

The rub is that as you get better, one shot tends to work far less unless you set up your opponent adequately - better players block and fish down the ball too well for you to play one shot. So when you get your basic rally shot down, and you have your spinny third ball opening, then you then make choices about what shot to use when.

But learning to kill the ball all the time is fundamentally bad table tennis. Can you play that way up to a relatively high level, of course, because it is possible to be much better than your opponents and get lots of easy returns off good serves. But you would still need the tools to beat better players when they are not giving you the opportunity to do what you love to do. The basic loop is the first one.

I don't really understand how ML executes many impeccable FH loops and resets like nothing happened. I have to go back to YT for ML training videos to understand the difference between the stroke variations. Probably, I didn't have the right understanding because of lack of experience against much stronger players.

I completely agree that kill game is a bad reportoire for game development. Works on lower level but I can see in my own eyes that regardless of power or spin, it is not that difficult if the opponent steps back a few steps to block it back. I sometimes work till 5 th ball setup as well but usually get enamoured with third balls. Many things which I am aware of my play such as third ball backhand, FH spinny loops, deep push, positioning - all of these are in a very low level compared to other aspects of my play.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Whether you can reset or not is a different issue. These shots, you are not even thinking of resetting. In your mind, they can't come back so you are just swinging hard, watching the shot and admiring it as it goes. So, maybe you can reset a lot faster. But you are definitely not even thinking of or trying to reset.

LOL, it seems you are pissed of with my attitude. I am a very proud person in all honesty and that is in built in my system.


Speaking on yogic context on arishadavargas - six filths of mind


kama (lust), krodha (anger), lobh (greed), moha (attachment), mada or ahankar (pride) and matsarya (jealousy)


It just ranks above jealousy. I am quite aware of it but I have less control over it. It is a manufacturing defect.


I hope I mellow down with age and experience

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I combined stroke mechanics and technique. If we distinguish them, then you are closer to the main point than I am.

And it is interesting. You guys are looking at technique and mechanics in terms of how energy/power is transferred into the ball. Which, of course, makes sense. And I am thinking of mechanics and technique from the standpoint of BIOMECHANICS, and how the body works, since, well, that is actually what I do.

This....the way joints work, our bodies....is also why everyone has a slightly different stoke. Everyone has a slightly different body. Longer arms, shorter, legs, torso, longer forearm shorter upper arm. One of the reasons, despite the steroids, that Lance Armstrong was so good at cycling had to do with the length of his lower leg in relation to his upper leg. Just take a few moments to think about that.

From the standpoint of joint mechanics, the simplest movement that will get the racket from the backswing to the followthrough while keeping the blade face in one plane, will be the basic mechanics you want to look at. And in that video of Sean O'neill, he is showing one of the biggest elements of that. Movement of the forearm at the elbow joint from the bicep. The whipping action that you need will come from if that movement is done in a relaxed enough manner with the right amount of acceleration. So, for a table tennis stroke, slow and relaxed is not going to work for spinning the ball. You need the relaxed part. But you also need as much acceleration as possible. That is part of the trick and the learning curve is to get that acceleration and whipping action that Brett is so good at showing how to develop in his tutorial videos. I mean, really, if you think about it, nobody else that I know of and have seen, has been able to figure out how to explain that how to cultivate that whipping action quite as effectively as Brett.....

So, the ability to transfer energy, and power into the ball, and the joint mechanics of the body, ARE NOT separate. Which is why that movement where the elbow goes up and causes the internal rotation of the shoulder, combined with shoulder flexion, and shoulder adduction, THAT IS BAD NEWS FOR YOUR SHOULDER. That is like trying to damage you rotator cuff muscles and manufacture an injury to the cartilage in your shoulder. In fact, that is almost the ideal movement for creating a forward dislocation of the shoulder joint. And these things I just said are exactly why combining those three movements of the shoulder joint--flexion, internal rotation, and adduction--WILL NOT CREATE AN EFFICIENT MOVEMENT OF YOUR RACKET. And will not allow you maximum racket speed or enable you to transfer energy/power into the ball efficiently, but WILL require more effort than is useful. And this will throw off balance, delay reset and cause a whole host of other mechanical issues.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't really understand how ML executes many impeccable FH loops and resets like nothing happened. I have to go back to YT for ML training videos to understand the difference between the stroke variations. Probably, I didn't have the right understanding because of lack of experience against much stronger players.

I completely agree that kill game is a bad reportoire for game development. Works on lower level but I can see in my own eyes that regardless of power or spin, it is not that difficult if the opponent steps back a few steps to block it back. I sometimes work till 5 th ball setup as well but usually get enamoured with third balls. Many things which I am aware of my play such as third ball backhand, FH spinny loops, deep push, positioning - all of these are in a very low level compared to other aspects of my play.

There is a playing distance and footwork factor that you are not seeing based on his assessment of the time to always the shot to get to his opponent and the quality of return the opponent will likely make. Timo Boll has also argued that the equipment Ma Long is using enables Ma Long to play shots that Timo cannot play with his current equipment.

But it all depends in getting the slow or weak ball. If MA Long is forced to backup and counterloop, his skills are not as unique, even if he is probably the best counter looper in the world with his CNT teammates. But there are some very talented European counter loopers if you get into the open game without an advantage. Boll is obviously one, but there are others. A lot of TT is serve and serve return and first attack and counterattack. Rallying is overestimated in value.

Also, it goes without saying that the top players are all special talents. Lesser mortals tried to do what they do and got lost along the road.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

LOL, it seems you are pissed of with my attitude. I am a very proud person in all honesty and that is in built in my system.


Speaking on yogic context on arishadavargas - six filths of mind


kama (lust), krodha (anger), lobh (greed), moha (attachment), mada or ahankar (pride) and matsarya (jealousy)


It just ranks above jealousy. I am quite aware of it but I have less control over it. It is a manufacturing defect.


I hope I mellow down with age and experience

You made me laugh. No, of course I am not pissed off. If you read what I said, I am saying that you are underestimating yourself and your skills all of a sudden.

YOU CAN reset. Why do I know this? In the multiball video where you knew the ball would come back, you did reset. You would need to work on resetting faster because your reset is slow. And part of how slow the reset is has to do with the mechanics of your swing.

But it is clear in those two shots that you posted, you are not resetting at all. But don't worry, I have done this too. And posting that video of you getting caught napping shows you are comfortable showing people your mistakes. So, definitely no anger on this side. If you posted that video, to me it means you honestly want to improve.

And with the BH 3rd ball, even though that guy walks in the way at the moment you take the shot, I can still see, that after your followthrough you relax and drop both your arms to your sides. You simply thought the point was over.

With the FH 3rd ball, you took such a big swing that it would be hard to reset. But, again, you were thinking that there was no way your attack would come back.

Now, it kind of makes sense. You are definitely better than the guy you are playing in that video. You probably don't have to play too hard or fully focus to play him. So you can get away with that.

But good training will make you reset and ready for everything coming back.

That part is an easy fix. You just need to be forced to practice while you know the ball is coming back.

A good coach and multiball would really help you. You'd be amazed how much.

And you are clearly trying to understand the flaws in your mechanics.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

You made me laugh. No, of course I am not pissed off. If you read what I said, you are underestimating yourself and your skills all of a sudden.

YOU CAN reset. Why do I know this? In the multiball video where you knew the ball would come back, you did reset. You would need to work on resetting faster because your reset is slow. And part of how slow the reset is has to do with the mechanics of your swing.

But it is clear in those two shots that you posted, you are not resetting at all. But don't worry, I have done this too. And posting that video of you getting caught napping shows you are comfortable showing people your mistakes. So, definitely no anger on this side. If you posted that video, to me it means you honestly want to improve.

And with the BH 3rd ball, even though that guy walks in the way at the moment you take the shot, I can still see, that after your followthrough you relax and drop both your arms to your sides. You simply thought the point was over.

With the FH 3rd ball, you took such a big swing that it would be hard to reset. But, again, you were thinking that there was no way your attack would come back.

Now, it kind of makes sense. You are definitely better than the guy you are playing in that video. You probably don't have to play too hard or fully focus to play him. So you can get away with that.

But good training will make you reset and ready for everything coming back.

That part is an easy fix. You just need to be forced to practice while you know the ball is coming back.

A good coach and multiball would really help you. You'd be amazed how much.

And you are clearly trying to understand the flaws in your mechanics.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

LOL, Since we are all chimps, it is definitely difficult to understand words than facial and non verbal communication. In a sense, What you have written seems to have come from my mind as well in respect to reset.

Yeah, it all depends on the opponent. I usually adapt well with stronger opponents. They take me to their level by playing them. Conversely, it happens with the other side too. It is a compromise I can live with.

In no day, I am against good coaching, probably I will improve great deal in no time with coaching. TBH, I can't afford it at this point of time. But, there are clear ambitions in the back of mind for future. After play, I am able to observe pain in the shoulder rotator cuff and upper regions, I need to be more careful on that. Otherwise, there would be one more unnecessary surgery like in the knee for nothing

 

[Der_Echte]

In person, I can do a bang up job of explaining and demonstrating the mechanics involved in most BH shots and my FH openers. I can show someone where they lose their power and how to improve power at impact with the finish of the arm, wrist and grip pressure using a very compact stroke.

Carl's emphasis on efficient mechanics is important, both for power consistency and health/fitness.

Improving particularly on how the arm snaps and wrist snaps and how to be loose beforehand is an easy gain waiting to happen for many players.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

....coaching. TBH, I can't afford it at this point of time.

Trust me, I get this. Right now I can't either. I wish I could. Too much going on and I've got my priorities straight.

But I will say, the stuff you are trying to change, it is VERY HARD to change it without good eyes there with you, who can see what you are doing and what needs to change.

Without the person being there in front of you, given that you still have a hard time knowing if your are doing things right or not, it will really be hard to change the mechanics of those strokes.

You think you did it. You look at the video and you can't really tell if it is right or not and then someone who can tell shows you that all that practice was still with the mistake you are trying to change occurring.

And then you have comments from someone like Archo about how fast you learned to spin the ball when you always could spin the ball. And you actually end up needing to figure out who knows and is trying to help and who is just trying to mess with you.

But all we can do is keep trying.

And if I had not had someone like Edmund Suen, who is not a coach but is a friend who was good enough to help me change my FH, I would not have been able to fix it.

I can't tell you how many times I thought I was doing the right thing and he videoed and, right there on the spot, showed me, using COACH MY VIDEO, stopping frame by frame, showing me exactly how I what I was still doing wrong, I might not have gotten it.

But, keep trying. At a certain point you will be able to see what you actually want and what is going wrong.




Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Hey guys, this small footage is from my last week's play. Here I got to smash two FH drives on easy balls. I had been remebering myself on the fore arm movement and reduced upper arm extenstion quite a lot before this play. Neverthless, the first one seems highly unsatisfying. Did the second smash has more forearm movement compared to the usual ones. What do you generally think seeing the slow motion?

 

[NextLevel]

They both look pretty good for kill shots on relatively high and easy balls.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

They both look pretty good for kill shots on relatively high and easy balls.

Thanks man, Just before the contact, I jump a little bit, This happens many times, is that really bad?

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks man, Just before the contact, I jump a little bit, This happens many times, is that really bad?

The jumping is not really jumping though you probably were a bit higher than most - many people jump similarly when looping powerfully or smashing - to rotate that fully with that stroke - you do need sometimes to lose contact with the ground for the weightless feeling of full rotation.

The stroke you use is a technique that I use a lot and it is what I talk about when I Say that you can straighten the arm on an easy ball. Ma Long uses that technique a lot - if this website allowed more easily to link to specific points in videos, I would post a few examples. The key point is to realize is that it is not a loop for every kind of ball or to be used on tricky, quality balls and that is where many people who admire Ma Long get confused. One could argue that Ma Long probably even uses that stroke sometimes when he shouldn't because of his practice and instincts. Your finishing position was much better quality than your past efforts and was closer to the eye/head level and to the left shoulder, though for perfection, you probably need to go all the way over to the left thigh but don't over think this - we don't get paid enough to injure ourselves and I don't do perfection.

IT's quite possible that the first shot was better than the second but this is splitting hairs. In any case, again, note that this specific shot is not for every kind of ball. But since you have good serves for your level, you will probably have more opportunities to execute it than would be usual. Whether that will hurt or help you is dependent on who you play and how you build your instinct as it is important to learn to spin up the tricky ball vs quality returns. That is why it is critical to teach your practice partners to push your heavy backspin serve, then to master serving and attacking behind it. Because if you can attack behind heavy backspin, then you stop worrying about attacking behind other things.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

To me the first one looks better than the second. NextLevel's point that these are high, easy balls is a good one. You kind of want to be practicing against low spinny pushes. That is where technique starts to matter more.

Second one you go down and across your body more. But, looking at your feet, to me it looks like you should be turning your stance a little more closed for your FH on a shot like the one you are given. Which means your right foot should be further back and your left foot should be more to the right. Then your stroke would go more forward and less to the side and you would end up with a lot more power.

Here you go:

Look at their feet. They show what you would want.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

But since you have good serves for your level, you will probably have more opportunities to execute it than would be usual. Whether that will hurt or help you is dependent on who you play and how you build your instinct as it is important to learn to spin up the tricky ball vs quality returns. That is why it is critical to teach your practice partners to push your heavy backspin serve, then to master serving and attacking behind it. Because if you can attack behind heavy backspin, then you stop worrying about attacking behind other things.

This is a good and interesting point here. Good practice for you would be serving backspin in a way where your opponent can return it well so you get a lot more practice having to loop against good, low, heavy pushes. A third ball against a return like the one in your video could get you easy points in a match. But if you are facing those all the time and don't face good, decent level pushes that are low, you won't develop a specific skill set that would take you up a level or two: being able to loop low spinny pushes.

 

[NextLevel]

This is a good and interesting point here. Good practice for you would be serving backspin in a way where your opponent can return it well so you get a lot more practice having to loop against good, low, heavy pushes. A third ball against a return like the one in your video could get you easy points in a match. But if you are facing those all the time and don't face good, decent level pushes that are low, you won't develop a specific skill set that would take you up a level or two: being able to loop low spinny pushes.

Not just low spinny pushes - low balls period - spinny pushes are just the ones that you can kinda make reliably low in practice - pushing no spin low is a bit harder for most people. The basic loop with proper form is ideally suited to deal with the lower balls. IF you aren't playing opponents that give you lots of them, it is easy to practice smashing and thinking all is well. But all it takes is for an opponent to start giving you balls that are of a slightly higher or even just different quality from what you are used to and then you have no way to open against them because you don't know how to play a safe topspin.

I can understand why many people, especially learning adults, don't find the safe topspin to be a sexy shot. Slow, easy to block, no pressure on the opponent - why should I do that? They don't realize that that is how their shot begins, but that is not how it ends. Over time, they get more spin and they place the shot better and they start learning to do power and spin variations, including sidespin. Most importantly for me is the quality of bailout it gives you when you are late to the ball, so you don't feel the pressure to hit the ball hard all the time, but can rally at your own preferred pace (against weaker or equal opponents who don't collapse early in the point) until you find the juicy ball you like. But if you don't start with the basic stuff, you will never get there.

All that said, what Siva is practicing has immense value too. The ability to straighten the arm like that and get racket head speed is what turned me into a third ball machine for a while. As long as one is careful to protect the shoulder with ample core rotation, the racket head speed from straightening the arm can be converted into spin in the right context. One just has to be careful not so swing across one's body and to make sure the stroke is properly done with a follow through usually at eye height.

 

[Archosaurus]

Two likes for NL's comment on the serves and returns you get. Hell, three.

I can still somewhat remember my days where my game had practically no safe attacking strokes and I just did stuff like this all day. My serve was too high level for my opposition, so I got a high ball on pretty much every short topspin or no-spin serve, so I just got used to hitting it really hard. Nowadays when I've taught my opponents to return my serves, I had to learn to loop by necessity, and I can really understand why the topspin stroke is the go-to stroke nowadays. I don't see how you could realistically return a very spinny half-long push by hitting it really hard and mostly flat.

Although for Siva's sake, I have to say that his serves and kill-shot form are better than what mine was at the time, so it's not 100% the same situation. That said, I can see the similarity. What would Siva do if all of his serves were suddenly being returned barely half long, low and spinny? Very low, very spinny and fast so that he has to back up? What if he played a really good chopper? etc. etc.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Hey guys, This week there was no opportuntiy to practise in the training hall. So, I have pacify my desire to play with the usual self hit stuff. Nevertheless, I realised what you guys have been advising to me on going slow and spinny on forehands before using power and ambition

To motivate myself again like the analogy given by NL, I found this on internet

“It is a mistake to think that moving fast is the same as actually going somewhere.”
? Steve Goodier

So, In this practise session I was just focussing on form and spin. The stroke was smooth and I develped a good relationship with the ball

So, I just added slow motion stuff to make the form look clear on the video. I would like to know what do you think about them?