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Sound cool champ, what setup do you have? i am thinking of buying table and robot aswell, for home training ?
Developing player with some potential :)
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here it goes please don't grill me to much i am the bald guy
If you play 6 months, I think it is pretty impressive. Keep up. I like that you play relaxed, you don't rush, there is almost some calmness :- ) and fluidity. I think you will progress a lot.
Following is my interpretation, take it with a grain of salt. You know my approx. level. I'm not a couch.
At your current level, where you don't really go for the shots, I think your setup is not harming you. But I think you'll very soon be adding more and more power and body to your shots, and I think there will be time, where your setup will not be ideal.
I don't know what will be the ideal setup for you, maybe you will develop liking for inner ALC, or you will like ESN sponges, or you will like the denser chinese sponges. I think it is very personal.
Back to the H3s. Recently I bought blades and rubbers for my sister and her daughters. I took Joola Offense (2x, 1 for 21E), and Butterfly Offensive (1x, for 28E). The Butt.Off. is light, 80g, the Joola is 85g. And rubbers from Ali, Yinhe Mercury 2, 3x soft and 3x medium, one for cca 6E. This means the complete Joola Offense bat is cca 33E, and complete Butt.Off bat is cca 40E.
It really is affordable, and such thing would imho be a worthy experience for you, for that price. There are other blades of that construction of course, I'm giving this as an example.
I read you consider a robot. That's completely different price range. I have Butterfly Amicus Expert. Little warning. I thought the diff. between Expert and Prime (or how is it called) is solely in the controller. But the problem is that Expert can't generate as strong back-spin as Prime, because only the bottom wheel rotates, and in the Prime also the 2 top wheels counter-rotate. Definitely players can generate more back-spin than my Expert. But it is still a very very good robot.
I have a Joola Inside 25, the cheapest 25mm table and it's actually really good quality. It's well constructed, bounces well, and it's in 2 pieces which is easier to work with with limited space and uneven floors. I have these thick felt pads to even it up and it's really perfect, especially since I got it for ~$500 shipped on Prime day.Sound cool champ, what setup do you have? i am thinking of buying table and robot aswell, for home training ?
With the money I saved there I went for the top of the line robot, the Amicus Prime. I think if I had to do it again I'd have chosen the Omnipong Omega instead as it has the same hardware but better software. Butterfly hasn't updated its software in like 2 years now. It does what I need though. I needed something that can work at a very fast pace so I can play without thinking, and I needed a variety of drills programmed.
A big advantage of the Butterfly/Omnipong design is that the head doesn't move, so you get minimal warning on where the next shot will be, which simulates higher level play better. That's also a big disadvantage, as it uses a deflector to direct the ball which means that shots to the sides always have side spin on it.
The spin it can generate is ridiculous. I never use backspin higher than -3 out of 5 or topspin greater than 5 out of 7. The speed it can generate is just OK. Robots using wheels to shoot out balls just can't match a paddle in terms of speed.
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This is just so important to everyone, me included.
we all learn along the way. Even the head coach of China is learning and adapting to understand better.
If you can truly master your equipment, you would be able to do things to the ball that wins you points every single time (playing against people your level).
It is okay to say that training always make your level feel higher. True challenge is on a wide variety of opponents, each with its own styles. Only then would shortcomings appear and for coaching staff to know, whats next. This is the same with the CNT (Just look at how the CNT next generation are loosing matches)
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well, my technique is the thing I have been feeling is my strong suit. people have always pointed out that I may be thinking too much about doing the correct stroke in matches instead of winning the ball. I also practice with a robot, but its hard to execute the stroke that you have practiced with a robot when you are in a match. when you assume that the technique is what is holding me back, I was expecting either a comment about what needed to be improved with the technique or at least some indication of why you came to this conclusion. its not me being defensive, its just that I dont see the reasoning behind what you are saying. again, I feel that my weakness is my timing and my general coordination, response time and balance, not the technique. maybe its a confusion about what you mean when you say technique ...
edit: here is a video of me 3 months ago doing a full swing vs backspin balls from the robot. I almost never get to do this type of movement in games and thats because I just dont have time for it -- I dont have the match experience to know what types of spin are coming from what types of movement of my opponents body and racket, and I dont have the time to anticipate what is coming:
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Very good point about 25mm table, imo. I regret having 19mm table, it is slower. Not that bad for hitting, but bad for serve training. In retrospect, I'd go for 22mm at least.
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Thank you for your positive feedback
, it will be a while before i can buy to best robot out there. so im probably gonna look for a cheaper robot in the beginning and the later on upgrading to the high quality robot.Omnipong Omega looks like a really good product for my future purchase
, for now i would probably go for something a little cheaper. One thig that for me is very important is that the table is on wheels so it easily can be puit away.I see, I think I can make 3 points, hope it can be helpful to you.
1) I don't think your technique is that bad, I just see similar issues going back. So it's really the difference, or lack thereof, between your technique now vs before that I was pointing out. You're clearly very motivated to improve, and you've got the resources (nice club, coach, robot, etc.) so I surmised that perhaps you were not focused on technique improvement so much as winning. I could be very wrong though!
2) As for what you can improve on, I think stiffness is the first thing that comes to mind. Notice how in the video you just posted your elbow angle is the most open at the end of the backswing. If you're relaxed at that stage, which you should be, then the angle should be the most open during the first part of the forward swing. This is because as your body moves your shoulder forward, it should drag relaxed arm forward and naturally open up your elbow angle. At more advanced level the same thing happens to the wrist. I've actually had the same issue, and it's very noticeable as soon as I as well as others watched videos of me play. I'll post some videos of my progress in the next couple of days.
3) I see two major issues with your training method for looping backspins. First is that the pace is way too slow. You feel like you don't have enough time during games because your training gives you way too much time. You're standing there a full second waiting for the shot before you're served a backspin. Forget about the service, just have it shoot you backspins one after another as quickly as you can handle. The second is that the location is too predictable. While that's OK when you're just starting to develop the stroke, you've been practicing it for a while now and you need to add variations. For my backspin practice I have the pace set at 50 balls/min, random FH and BH, with 7 different locations for the FH and 3 for the BH (reversed if I'm practicing BH backspins). These 10 total different locations include different speeds, and 1 location per each of BH/FH is a double bounce ball that I need to loop/flick over the table.
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thanks for all the clarifications. we actually did a drill right after I recorded that where I get a fast topspin after looping the backspin to simulate the quite usual response to a slow and spinny ball. my robot dont have the options of varying spins in the same sequence (amicus start). I have only recently started playing more frequently at the club though (from1 time per week to 3 times per week), so this might be why you dont see progress over some months in the videos. intil quite recently I have only been networking my practice partners and played on a company team and things like that ... during summer I played a lot in the park ;D ... I still find it hard to get the right practice partners, but I have just as well gone for the strategy of making my practice partners become better over time. its hard to get a shot at playing with the good players, it seems, but I think people have started to take notice of my improvement when I have played three times a week at the club for about three weeks.
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I'd say this is what stands out to me immediately, because I have spent time mired in the same thing. Your concern over your technique is making you stiff and rigid, which ironically means it is arduous to reach a very good/usable match technique. You will feel yourself asking questions like "why am I not improving quickly?" "why do I feel stuck?" "why can I not react at all in a match?"
You must conquer this mentally by a perspective shift to understanding technique is about fluidity, connection, smoothness, rhythm. Emphasize these and you will in time be able to apply the power and spin you want to the ball.
You mention timing, balance, coordination as something separate from technique, but these things ARE your technique--they come directly from how you use your body to each movement.
Right now you do not understand how to apply your body to the stroke and into the ball, but you have wonderful intuition and dedication. It will come in time if you let it go, let your body flow naturally, always dancing...like boxing, fencing...it is difficult to learn and not at all like it is usually described (push from right leg to left leg is nonsense) and our preconceptions get in the way.
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yes, I agree, but I think I narrow down the technique-term to the willful manipulation of the bodys natural inclinations. a runner will become efficient in running if he/she runs a lot, but there are shortcuts to the experience of joint pain of running too much in a particular way and having to adjust to the pain over thousands and thousands of hours, and that is the willful manipulation of technique. I am using a lot of effort right now to become better in table tennis, but I have given myself two years to do the bulk of my improvement, by then I will be 40 years old. as a long term plan, table tennis is going to be a way for me to stay active into old age.
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I've been on the technique improvement journey as well, and unfortunately saying things like "let it come naturally" is just as useless as push from right leg to left leg. If it can come naturally then we'd see many amateurs with good technique, but it doesn't happen basically ever.
Pushing from right leg to left leg actually does help, there's just a lot more than that. While I've never been a full time teacher, I've always done a lot of teaching throughout my life, including in my current line of work. In my experience, you need to both be able to emphasize the big picture (e.g. natural movement) as well as the details (e.g. pushing from right leg to left leg).
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It's funny that you mention the leg pushing thing, because it was you who gave me similar advice and as you saw the very next session I had, it made some difference.
I can only speak for myself here, but I've had many many misconceptions about technique and getting these perceptions kind of corrected or developed did make a difference to me. Though this understanding is ever evolving and what one thought was right before may very well change. I played with terrible technique for years, I even unknowingly played with an antispinracket for years which for sure messed my progress up. But I wasn't that interested in TT the first few years.
My changes in training environment made the biggest differences, but having a better understanding of what to do did help me a lot. With that said, my technique is never going to be perfect and I'm kind of done with the obsession over improvement.
But misunderstandings and preconceptions can absolutely get in the way. NL recently talked about the "taking the ball where it shows up" and that really revealed this notion that I've had to try to setup perfectly etc.
We should be careful with too rigid and too detailed approaches imo. It all depends on so much..
This sport is damn hard.
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It isn't really the racket speed, and it doesn't quite work as you said. In fact, with a slower racket, you can challenge your opponent with less aggressive play because your touch game could be better in some ways.. The main issue is to work on your backspin game, it isn't that hard to hit backspin balls once you train against them a lot, especially if you have the lower body usage. I just straight arm and elbow snap most of them. The problem for most players who learn is that it takes time to learn the timing and some people don't have the patience. For me, I am generally stronger vs backspin than vs topspin, so I enjoy playing against it (not chop per se, but I like people who push long and think that my missing is because they have a good push, after a few points, that changes quickly unless they have a really strong block).I agree, there is much room for improvement and i know my weaknesses. hence why i said some potential
With a slower setup i would be forced to be more aggressive in order to challange my opponent. maybe even with a headheavy racket like korbel due to the head size being 158 -152
The one thing I will say is that attacking backspin balls as well as adding spin to a ball is easier with a slower racket and that was the main reason why I stayed with wooden rackets for a long time. I think having seen your actual game, if you can't force yourself to learn to loop backspin or play against choppers with your current racket, consider either putting sticky rubber on your forehand or using all wood for a short time. I would probably do the former before the latter. But in any case, taking backspin aggressively takes a while (3 months to a year for full maturity of reading the spin and adjusting appropriately, especially between lighter and heavier spin) but is something that someone should pursue aggressively.
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Again, without knowing the context of your training, that is too tight to be called a full swing. I try to cushion these comments because very often, we struggle not because of our capabilities but because of our imagination. A full swing will often end up on your left hip as if you are throwing a discuss.
I went back to the video and saw a few things - in addition to what dingyvbus gave you which is excellent advice, you need to realize that in table tennis, the upper arm is too slow to do anything meaningful by itself. Most table tennis technique is designed to reduce the usage of the upper arm and to increase the transmission of the use of the body to the lower arm/wrist/fingers/racket. if your upper arm is moving by itself, unless you are turning the body or using the legs really aggressively to throw it, and letting it finish on it own, you are likely overusing it. It is often better to just snap the forearm and feel as if you are stopping at or just pulling past the ball. This is the broad principle of forehand technique and the sooner one figures out how to use the body to power the upper arm powerfully, the faster they get good with their forehand.
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This is an amazing post. It is very zen like in its construction. Technique has a goal - to help you generate quality balls. If you can generate quality balls (with the necessary recovery if the ball comes back and no need for recovery if it doesn't) and your motions do not cause injury, no matter what people want to see, you have good technique. So when I see someone driving a stroke with something other than primarily the upper arm, I can tell they have good technique. Obviously, there is context, but if you get too formalistic about technique, you might do things that are good for you but not realize it. After all, Timo Boll and Dima are pushing balls with things that some people thought were wrong before they got really good doing then. Now people can say "Do it like Dima" etc. If Ma Long wasn't chopblocking so much, I am fairly confident that the stroke would be a none-starter for most shakehanders.
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At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I posted this match on another thread. These players are both over 1600 TTR. You can spend a lot of time with technique and not beat the winner here if you just can't play effective shots.
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Just wanted to chime in and thank everyone here that has contributed their thoughts in this thread. I've read over 1000 posts about random TT topics since getting into the sport about 5 months ago and this is by far the most helpful and insightful thing I've ever come across.
Before TT my athletic interests were powerlifting and then muay thai. In powerlifting, achieving technical perfection in a movement is so important and something I was still striving for even after a decade of training.
I think this mindset carried over to muay thai and TT where I find myself obsessed with technique and wondering why my form looks like complete dog crap sparring/playing compared to training.
Staying loose, not forcing my own concept of 'ideal' technique on every shot, and instead taking a specific shot in context of what I'm capable of and what the situation calls for seem to be the answers to my problem (aside from just training more and getting better of course).
Before TT my athletic interests were powerlifting and then muay thai. In powerlifting, achieving technical perfection in a movement is so important and something I was still striving for even after a decade of training.
I think this mindset carried over to muay thai and TT where I find myself obsessed with technique and wondering why my form looks like complete dog crap sparring/playing compared to training.
Staying loose, not forcing my own concept of 'ideal' technique on every shot, and instead taking a specific shot in context of what I'm capable of and what the situation calls for seem to be the answers to my problem (aside from just training more and getting better of course).
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The biggest thing that helps is getting the right coach or mentor - most people who don't play well or get better don't have someone who cares about their game. If you find someone who cares about your game and is often willing to train or hit with you, it will often get better, even if all you are doing is messing around
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