WTT Contender Doha 2024

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I want to stand up for this TBH. If he didn’t care about Tomokazu’s game and progress, he would simply pass by and not write anything about it, as many do. Criticism is always painful and unpleasant, but it is also sobering and gives the opportunity to develop further.
 
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It's just a matter of expectations. If the expectation is that he'd be the top Japanese, perennial top 10, and basically the successor to Mitzutani Jun, then he's doing great. If the expectation is that he'd be in the conversation for the GOAT on the level of ML or Waldner, then he's been a disappointment thus far.
 
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I don't want to keep repeating myself because clearly some of you are not understanding simple concepts.

Harimoto is a VERY GOOD player. He has always been a very good player, and will be a good player for the next 10 years. He's not a disappointment as a player, or as a person.

However, he is clearly a disappointment relative to his early trajectory and his hype. He was the best 14 year old we have ever seen, and he had a good chance to be the best 20 year old we have ever seen. He DID NOT continue this trajectory. He did not separate himself from the pack by improving his play in the past 5 years. Is he the first to peak early and not translate early success into adult success? By no means! Michael Chang won the French Open at 17, and never won a major title ever again. But this is where we stand with Harimoto. Harimoto was called by the media the "100 year talent". The Lebron James of TT. And at age 14, he really did look like a unique talent. He was beating top CNT players as a junior. But he has not improved or continued on his early performance. ONLY in this regard, is he a disappointment.

Not to even mention that Harimoto himself openly stated that he was confident that he could meet his goal of winning Gold medal at the 2020 Olympics. Obviously he didn't live up to his own expectations.

Repeat: Disappointment as a player? No.
Disappointment as a 100 year unique talent? Yes.
There is a lot that can be said here, but the disclaimer that past performance is no guarantee of future results applies here. Moreover, one of the things that is well known in table tennis amongst experienced coaches who have developed young children and why the Chinese have traditionally been hesitant to allow their younger talents to have international exposure, is that puberty is a critical time in developing a player's game, the physical changes can ruin what worked for a player prior so the career trajectory for a player is easier to discuss when you reference their games after the age of 16/17 for men. The issue in Harimoto's case is that no one was even doing what he was doing at 12‐14 so it is easy to just assume this never applied to him.

That said, I am 100% okay with your being disappointed with Harimoto's performance. What I find puzzling for a table tennis player of your caliber is the inability to see that the issues are much deeper than the simplistic recommendations you repeatedly make which assume he is doing something obviously wrong, which sometimes make me wonder whether you have ever tried to coach a good player to improve. But I suspect you would write off their Inability to improve as being a result of their lack of talent or their having nothing to maximize which is totally understandable...
 
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It's just a matter of expectations. If the expectation is that he'd be the top Japanese, perennial top 10, and basically the successor to Mitzutani Jun, then he's doing great. If the expectation is that he'd be in the conversation for the GOAT on the level of ML or Waldner, then he's been a disappointment thus far.
I agree with the caveat that writing off a 20 year old when even the greatest player of all time won his first world title at the age of 27 is a bit much. That said Ma Long and Fan Zhendong and other members of these great Chinese generation have had a consistency of good results not known in TT history (Waldner did not have anything like Ma Long's tour dominance). It is why I wonder sometimes whether these unrealistic expectations are tied more to just a naive view of what it takes to be as dominant as the CNT are or whether we are just dealing with one guy who can't see what most players who train at his level can see easily - that Harimoto wasn't a complete player and that he has to become a more complete player to approach his peak and who knows how that will end up, because the competition invest a lot of time into probing your every weakness.

I also suspect there is a genetic nationalist component to this (damn, he is really Chinese, so he should be performing like a top Chinese) that seems to believe that the CNT training investment is not a big deal and can be replicated elsewhere.
 
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LMAO.

Harimoto "Best non-Chinese" "maximized his potential" manages to lose to 42 year old player on his way out. All the while being up 3-2 and easily could've closed it out. All the while not facing Chinese opponent.

Again YOU are the one ignoring facts and the actual results. This is not the performance of a man coming into his physical prime and maximizing on his talent and early success.
Stop being such a hater. Jesus man, it's really getting old.
 
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I think we can all agree on how WTT has botched this whole series of Doha events at the very least.

These camera issues started WEEKS AGO at the Men's Finals, and have been happening throughout the whole 3 events unfixed and unaddressed.

Then you get to a final that TT fans are excited about with fan favorites Boll and Harimoto, that gets to a GAME 7, and the entire game is absolutely unwatchable. The technical team and crew let down the fans and robbed Timo of his moment. Who even knows if those last few points were caught on film clearly.

It's absolutely unreal how badly they've botched this.
 
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Stop being such a hater. Jesus man, it's really getting old.
Im really not a hater. I was a fan of his and hoping for his achievements. I was living in Japan when he first brokeout. Every week i watched the endless documentaries and tv specials about his life and training and how he was the "chosen one"

But his performance is not up to his hype. Now im more a fan of his sister.

I will never feel about his sister the same way because she was never overhyped like he was.
 
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I haven't written him off. I just said, he can still improve and come back and win the big titles.

But the trend, at the moment, doesnt look good for him. His results are not showing.
We got a great match and event with compelling narratives on both the Boll side and Harimoto side. Boll coming back from injuries and unexpectedly wrecking good players in straight sets. Harimoto looking to play a different style with a very aggressive FH. And all you can think of is to talk about how Harimoto is such a loser. It's just a bad look man.

I would love for Harimoto to turn into an actual threat to the CNT. That would be great. It's also wishful thinking. But being so hard on a guy for doing something that nobody has really done for decades and then filling up threads about how he's not living up to your standards is just kinda lame. Can we talk about how amazing it is for a 42 year old Boll to beat win this event instead? At the very least wait a day or two for people to give Timo his props before shitting on Harimoto.
 
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We got a great match and event with compelling narratives on both the Boll side and Harimoto side. Boll coming back from injuries and unexpectedly wrecking good players in straight sets. Harimoto looking to play a different style with a very aggressive FH. And all you can think of is to talk about how Harimoto is such a loser. It's just a bad look man.

I would love for Harimoto to turn into an actual threat to the CNT. That would be great. It's also wishful thinking. But being so hard on a guy for doing something that nobody has really done for decades and then filling up threads about how he's not living up to your standards is just kinda lame. Can we talk about how amazing it is for a 42 year old Boll to beat win this event instead? At the very least wait a day or two for people to give Timo his props before shitting on Harimoto.
This was my favorite Boll match. Making a top 10 player look like he just didn't belong on the table.

 
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More context. ML made his first WTTC singles medal at the age of 21 (2009) and then two more bronzes (2011,2013) and first title in 2015 (age 27) but of course cleaned up until the age of 31 (2017, 2019). Fan Zhendong won his first WTTC medal in 2015 at the age of 18, got a silver at the age of 20 in 2017, missed the podium at 22 in 2019, and got his first gold in 2021 at the age of 24 (almost 25 given the delay in time relative to his birthday) - and of course they notoriously held Ma Long from competing. Wang Liqin also won his first title at the age of 24. Zhang Jike won at 23 and 25. Kong Linghui at 20, Liu Guoliang at 23.

When you take a broad perspective to this, I really do not understand what TBH wants that Harimoto is not doing other than failing to be Fan Zhendong. But choking vs ML repeatedly notwithstanding, there is nothing wrong with not being Fan Zhendong, who is probably the 100 year talent that TBH is looking for.

More seriously, I still find it amazing that someone can be written off as a failure at the age of 20 for not doing things that only one 20 year old amongst the post-1990 greats has achieved. And that 20 year old is not even currently considered the greatest player of all time!
 
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Im really not a hater. I was a fan of his and hoping for his achievements. I was living in Japan when he first brokeout. Every week i watched the endless documentaries and tv specials about his life and training and how he was the "chosen one"

But his performance is not up to his hype. Now im more a fan of his sister.

I will never feel about his sister the same way because she was never overhyped like he was.
Tbh, I don't see anyone here hyping up Harimoto and calling him the chosen one here in this forum. So we don't need to correct any misguided Harimoto lovers as far as I know. If you do encounter one, I can assure you that most people commenting in this thread (including me) will back you up in bringing them back to reality.

To my knowledge, Shin Yoobin is called something similar to the 'chosen one' in the Korean TT scene. But I don't think that means that we need to posts about how she's well off from being a threat to CNT women when she loses, like she did today.

I don't think we need to show some sort of reverence for these young competitors and not criticize them for their failures either. Some people like that exist I guess. But in this case, pure Harimoto criticism does take the focus away from enjoying Timo Boll's win and just a good match and event in general. It's not like this finals result told us something new. Harimoto had to dig deep to get past Gauzy.

In any case, apologies for coming across with a harsh tone. Some of my annoyance at WTT for their shitty production must've surely been rubbing off in my replies. For the most part, the Harimoto criticism is somewhat entertaining. It just came across as very unnecessary today.
 
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Haven't watched the finals match yet but do u guys think if Togami won Harimoto will he get a better chance at winning Boll?
Harimoto almost won. He had leads in the sixth (9-5) and the 7th (7-5). Boll went on runs in both games to take it all. Togami is a better athlete but again looking at who Boll beat this week (Jang, Noshad, Lee Sang Su, Lin Yun Ju, Harimoto), there is no guarantee that Togami would have had better luck. Boll played a damn good tournament.
 
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old Timo shows that the older the ginger, the spicier it is.
Timo won by playing into Lin's FH more. One of the LH vs LH issues Lin has...
Yes, it's really surprising how Lin Yun Ju's FH even seemed to be weaker than Boll's. There's something about his positioning which seemed weird in the match and Boll seemed to be able to exploit by just repeatedly sending these spinny balls to his FH.
 
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I watched the match and imo Harimoto played well but just choked at the 6th set when he was leading 8-3 and 9-5 to then lose 6 points straight. The tactics were simply unsound (kept trying out FH short push nonsense - isn't it just easier to just chiquita to win?!). Not sure wtf was he thinking....
 
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It's just a matter of expectations. If the expectation is that he'd be the top Japanese, perennial top 10, and basically the successor to Mitzutani Jun, then he's doing great. If the expectation is that he'd be in the conversation for the GOAT on the level of ML or Waldner, then he's been a disappointment thus far.
Not sure. Mitzutani seemed to be able to carry a mixed double's pair. Harimoto paired with Hayata, it seems like Hayata has been carrying the pair. That is somewhat weird. The male player should be stronger and open the attacks more. But Harimoto's game is based on countering.
 
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