Changes in Table Tennis

Have the changes over the last 20 years been good for the sport?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 34.5%
  • No

    Votes: 19 65.5%

  • Total voters
    29
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It's funny how individualistic cultures seem to much more favor team sports, while more non-individualistic cultures like China and Japan, while they still try to push for team sports, have really eaten up table tennis compared to the west.

Yes, because people in the west are bad at individual sports like tennis and golf (etc. etc.) and people in Asia are bad at team sports like volleyball and baseball (and rhythmic gymnastics, etc.).

Seriously, any time you read something about how some deeply ingrained aspect of "Asian culture" explains their supremacy in table tennis (or anything else), just ignore it.

What inevitably follows are old stereotypes that in many cases border on racism, even when the remarks are well intentioned. If you feel the need, just go watch a Kung Fu Panda movie instead, at least you will laugh.

By the way I am married to a Chinese person and travel there and in other places in Asia very often and at the moment every nearly single person I work with directly is from Asia. I have also lived in Europe. I feel like I can comment on this from a fairly informed perspective. The idea that a country like China that for decades had a one-child policy and hence generations of only-children is somehow "non-individualistic" just makes me shake my head.

Except for the fact that Japanese and Chinese people look similar to Europeans, there is surprisingly little cultural overlap given their divergent history for millenia. One thing they share for about 60 years is a love for table tennis, an inexpensive indoor sport that does not require large open spaces, unusual physical stature, or a particular climate, and that is also really fun. It was introduced into those countries just after WWII --prior to which time, the dominant players were from Eastern Europe, especially Hungary, an area that continued to produce substantial numbers of potential world champions until government support for the sport dried up there -- which coincided with those countries also becoming democracies. When I was a kid, the great players included Klampar and Joyner and Surbek, and Stipancic, among others. On any given day, one of those guys could beat anyone in the world, whether their opponent was from Japan or China. Also, we know about Waldner and Persson (and Appelgren and Johannson and Bengtsson and Alser et al.). So, where are all the great Norwegian table tennis players? Must be some huge cultural divide, right? Or Archo, where are the Finnish superstars? Lots of ethnic Swedes in Finland.

Every country in Europe and South America loves soccer but in the US, which shares a host of "cultural values" with Europe soccer is only recently emerging, and progress here in that sport is relatively slow. Is it because Americans are bad at team sports because of our culture? Well, no. The most popular sport here is almost the ultimate team sport (American football, which is incredibly choreographed). Through some accident of history, that is the form of football that took root here in the 1890s, instead of the form of football that emerged at about the same time everywhere else. And basketball. And baseball. And ice hockey. All team sports. All things North Americans are good at. One could ask, why is Canada with a population about the same as California just a little better than the US in ice hockey? Some deep cultural divide? Yeah right. People from Minnesota and people from Alberta are somehow completely distinct?

I hate to rant (and don't mean to jump on Arch in particular), but this kind of thing really bothers me.
 
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@Baal

Great job imagining context to what I said.

Let's read that again: "It's funny how individualistic cultures seem to much more favor team sports, while more non-individualistic cultures like China and Japan, while they still try to push for team sports, have really eaten up table tennis compared to the west."

Nowhere did I make a racial divide in terms of skill or tried to claim that the reason Asians play more table tennis is because of their culture. I just said it's funny how traditionally non-individualistic cultures seem to really enjoy table tennis nowadays compared to the west. You would think that around here where at least traditionally, more emphasis is placed on the individual compared to the state or the family, we would really love a sport like table tennis where the individual can really shine and it's all about them.

I'm not saying China and Asia in general are completely non-individualistic, and the west is completely individualistic, that'd be ridiculous, but you can't deny that there seems to be a cultural divide in how some things are thought of and what the motivations to some things are. However here in the west children are encouraged to become doctors and lawyers and whatnot to bring wealth to the family and their future children, just as they are in Asia. I'm not sure if anyone is devoted to the socialist state and party anymore in China, so it's not like we're so different in this. I understand where you're coming from when you say that China isn't exactly non-individualistic.

I could be completely wrong, but this is what I've heard from people who live in China and Japan. If you think it's vastly different, elaborate. As you said, you're coming from a somewhat informed view, I might not be.
 
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I am not imagining context. It is right there, plain to see, with the term "non-individualistic cultures". Not explicitly racial but implicitly racial (and if you don't get it, read what I wrote again). And it is such utter and complete nonsense that it undermines everything that comes after. And it is the starting premise of your comment.

Go reflect on this. Think. Why might someone find this offensive?
 
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What is offensive about the terms and their implications? People and cultures are different, and they place more or less emphasis on some things.
The way people behave towards each other for example might have motivations more based in how the other person feels, or more how the person doing the deed feels themselves. To my understanding, in the west it's more common to try to find someone to blame when something goes wrong, while in the east it's more thought of to be a result of the system, because blaming someone alone would be very rude and give them a bad name. Of course we think about that here in the west, but not as much.

Historically Europe used to be a very non-individualistic place, with decisions being made with much more emphasis on the good of the community, the family etc. Nowadays more decisions are made when they have to do with an individual's matters. Is that not the case?

Now, if China and other developed Asian countries like Japan and S.Korea are more individualistic or non-individualistic in this regard, I can't tell you precisely. I'm not too sure if I could accurately understand and pinpoint all of the motivations for actions in a culture as foreign as that even if I lived there for a great deal of time.

What do you think?
 
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I am not imagining context. It is right there, plain to see, with the term "non-individualistic cultures". Not explicitly racial but implicitly racial (and if you don't get it, read what I wrote again). And it is such utter and complete nonsense that it undermines everything that comes after. And it is the starting premise of your comment.

Go reflect on this. Think. Why might someone find this offensive?

People take offense to things too easily these days!

He made a harmless comment that no one else has taken as offensive but you. It is very clear that he meant no harm in what he said and you seem to have chosen to have taken it as "borderline racism". He simply made an observation, there was no racist intention at all from what I can see. He neither said being "individualistic" was good or bad.

It seems so unnecessary to rant like that towards someone on a TT forum.
 
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What is offensive about the terms and their implications? People and cultures are different, and they place more or less emphasis on some things.
The way people behave towards each other for example might have motivations more based in how the other person feels, or more how the person doing the deed feels themselves. To my understanding, in the west it's more common to try to find someone to blame when something goes wrong, while in the east it's more thought of to be a result of the system, because blaming someone alone would be very rude and give them a bad name. Of course we think about that here in the west, but not as much.

Historically Europe used to be a very non-individualistic place, with decisions being made with much more emphasis on the good of the community, the family etc. Nowadays more decisions are made when they have to do with an individual's matters. Is that not the case?

Now, if China and other developed Asian countries like Japan and S.Korea are more individualistic or non-individualistic in this regard, I can't tell you precisely. I'm not too sure if I could accurately understand and pinpoint all of the motivations for actions in a culture as foreign as that even if I lived there for a great deal of time.

What do you think?
It's easier to think this way in Finland than in the US... just be warned.
 
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@NextLevel

Thank you, I understand where you're coming from. People generally don't like it when you make any kind of statements about their ethnicity or nationality.

I try not to speak about ethnicity or nationality face to face with people from a different culture, I'm more so concerned on what the person in front of me is, not what I think their ethnicity or nationality is. I'm not fully Finnish myself and I've been judged based on my ethnicity, so I can understand how it might be offensive.


Baal is challenging me and attempting to give different meaning to what I said, so I am simply bringing out some things that I believe to be true which allow me to truthfully make some statements. At the same time, I might be wrong, so I'm allowing Baal to educate me. Thinking in terms of stereotype and stereotype only isn't very good.

However "I am offended" is not a very good basis for trying to prove something as false or true. Baal still has not told me why my view of Asian people is nonsense: just that it is because he is offended.

If he must dislike me or what I say for that reason, what can I say. I mean no bad.
 
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Every country in Europe and South America loves soccer but in the US....

Baal, this is a great post. So many interesting insights. Thanks.



Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
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@Baal

I saw your edit just now. Thanks for the clarification.

Your views are welcome, and I'm not saying you're wrong either. However I won't accept what meaning you're trying to give to what I am saying. That is your personal issue.

I'd really love to hear how your thoughts on Chinese culture differ from mine based on your experience. I haven't lived there, so there is no way I can confirm the validity of my beliefs, and the only thing I'm afraid of is that my beliefs are wrong and I don't know it.
 
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What is offensive about the terms and their implications? People and cultures are different, and they place more or less emphasis on some things.
The way people behave towards each other for example might have motivations more based in how the other person feels, or more how the person doing the deed feels themselves. To my understanding, in the west it's more common to try to find someone to blame when something goes wrong, while in the east it's more thought of to be a result of the system, because blaming someone alone would be very rude and give them a bad name. Of course we think about that here in the west, but not as much.

Historically Europe used to be a very non-individualistic place, with decisions being made with much more emphasis on the good of the community, the family etc. Nowadays more decisions are made when they have to do with an individual's matters. Is that not the case?

Now, if China and other developed Asian countries like Japan and S.Korea are more individualistic or non-individualistic in this regard, I can't tell you precisely. I'm not too sure if I could accurately understand and pinpoint all of the motivations for actions in a culture as foreign as that even if I lived there for a great deal of time.

What do you think?

Well first, and above all, the premise is nonsense for reasons I explained. Non-individualistic culture etc. etc. (Again, contemplate what would happen through 2+ generations of only children, who grow up with no sisters or brothers, maybe even no cousins, pampered by their parents, as is the case in much of China, certainly the places where people play a lot of TT).

Whether people are offended by your original premise is another matter. I am actually not actually offended per se. As for people who say that people get "offended too easily", I react to that pretty badly I have to say because people in my own country who like to say that represent in my view a fairly scary element.

Hot spots for particular sports sometimes emerge in some places through accidents of history as much as anything else, which is why Sweden is good at table tennis and Norway isn't. To try to find deeper cultural reasons is sometimes completely unnecessary and maybe a fool's errand, especially if someone tries to lump Japanese and Chinese people together because... why? Because they sort of look similar to European eyes? Because of the "mystique of the orient" or some other such gibberish? The thing is, though, stereotypes of that sort can be damaging*, not so much on a table tennis forum (because really who cares at the end of the day) --- but in other aspects of life. So, that is why I attempted some consciousness-raising. Maybe it fell flat.

As for your last paragraph, I am not sure I understand and can pinpoint all of the actions that happen in my own bizarre country (the United States). I certainly can't do it for Japan or China. I just know those places are very very different. How different? I don't know. Maybe as different as Helsinki and Athens. And yet, people are shaped by much more than their nationality.

* I would give you examples of how that works except I don't want to hijack the thread more.
 
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I see. It does make sense, what you say about China. I also did not mean to lump China and Japan together: they're nothing alike in my eyes.

I do have to disagree on what you said about the so called scary element. Political correctness is simply an attempt to control speech and thinking: not too far away from 1984. Someone will always get insulted over what you have to say, and no one needs to change their behavior because of only that fact.

A few years ago, an anti-racism law was passed here which essentially means a hefty fine or imprisonment if someone is reported expressing racist views or making remarks towards an ethnicity. Of course this includes artistic installations and works.

Not hate crimes, violence or discrimination towards persons, simply expressing views.

Do you think something like this is okay, and won't lead into further thought and speech control?
 
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I'm not going to comment more about politics. I went too far already. You .may discern that I'm not too happy at the moment. I'll leave it at that. TT is a good escape for me. Will be even if they raise the net a cm, which I hope they don't.
 
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