Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

My lil'friend and I have moved past the courting stage and now in the newly married stage. Give us some time and soon we'll go to the stage where we'll complete each other sentences sub consciously. Slowly, but surely.

Your relationship fascinates me so I will be watching closely.

In all seriousness, looping backspin requires a certain feeling of shaping the ball and developing it with extremely fast rackets and confidently hitting the table is challenging and the rackets will tend to send the ball long (or into the net) if your timing is not extremely precise since the arc is longer and flatter. So your success will be a big win for people who seriously believe that coaching can overcome really fast equipment even at the beginner to low intermediate level - remember you are not just Viscaria fast, you are one ply hinoki fast with Bluefire and MX-P. I personally would just as your coach force you to use something slower to practice the feeling even if you want to use your faster racket to play matches.

In any case, good luck with it.

 

[Choosikick]

Your relationship fascinates me so I will be watching closely.

In all seriousness, looping backspin requires a certain feeling of shaping the ball and developing it with extremely fast rackets and confidently hitting the table is challenging and the rackets will tend to send the ball long (or into the net) if your timing is not extremely precise since the arc is longer and flatter. So your success will be a big win for people who seriously believe that coaching can overcome really fast equipment even at the beginner to low intermediate level - remember you are not just Viscaria fast, you are one ply hinoki fast with Bluefire and MX-P. I personally would just as your coach force you to use something slower to practice the feeling even if you want to use your faster racket to play matches.

In any case, good luck with it.

Well, I don’t know, I watched the video where Gonzo played, in my opinion, he needs to develop foot movements first of all.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Not sure how you are holding back as there are many ways to hold back, but a lot of it depends on whether you see your practice partners as people you compete with or people who if they get better then you get better. I personally just serve like I serve in a match, maybe I might make it more obvious but sometimes, for the level of players I sometimes practice with, it is valuable for them to see the difference between imagination and reality. And if they return the serve better, then I get a chance to learn how to practice against better returns.

That said, your approach is perfectly valid, it is just a different approach vs the one that my coach originally pushed me to embrace, and it might be because you play in a different competitive system. Of course, when my coach and myself fought, he would sometimes push people to not show me stuff so it wasn't always kumbaya. But in general, it is a good thing to accept the challenge of the people who you train with on a regular basis getting better. I like to see the real challengers as people who are from other clubs or people who I play at tournaments. Have the feeling that you have a depth to your game (maybe you hold back by not showing them every serve, but the serves you show, no need to not do them properly). It takes a lot for someone to be able to return a really good serve in a way that consistently troubles you and in practice, you do want to see that serve returned so you know what to do it with it.

If I am playing a practice match with my training partners, I refrain from doing serves that could win the point right away (e.g. maximum backspin serve), or serves that they would frequently mis-read. I tend to do serves that prevent them from attacking first, so I can practice my opening up shots. If I do 100% of my serves, the rallies become short and I don't feel I get as much benefit as I need more practices on the later shots. I do service practices on my own.

 

[songdavid98]

LOL, I did at least 200k practice bh loops vs backspin before I accepted it would never be good and switched to pips bh. 1000 is like one or two days worth. I trained that stroke for four years and still gave up after.

About success rate dingyibvs is right, BUT, only if you are playing matches to win instead of to practice. To quote Brian Pace 'nobody cares how many practice matches you win.' You will make progress so much faster if you mentally assign every match to either competition or practice categories. If it is comp just try to win however you can. And when it is practice, do the strokes you want to learn. If your success rate is 20% and you get slaughtered, WHO CARES? It was practice.

I am volunteer coaching five players at a local club who are roughly your level. We get enough training time in a week for each of them to have about 30 - 40 minutes with me. So I told them if they only train that time maybe in a year they will learn a new skill. If they also use the 7ish hours of matchplay we get for training instead of serious comp, that learning time gets cut to 3 months or so. Their choice.

And about your fh loop, the biggest issue I see with these players is that they still bh push from the fh side, or now sometimes bh topspin from the fh side. That's not the problem, but they don't reverse their feet back to a fh stance, or not quick enough. So they lock up their own body rotation and can't play a good fh topspin. There is a negative feedback loop in this where they can't play the practice fh in matches and lose confidence, and lack of confidence makes their fh tighter and worse. But it all comes from the feet. Maybe if your coach thinks it is a good idea, try a drill where you push one ball with bh from your fh side, he pushes back to your fh and you turn around and play a proper loop. That seems more game-relevant than just looping fh vs backspin against multiball where you always have your feet right because you pre-decided to loop it.

Does that make sense?

To the people who claim to be doing over 100k loops and still not getting it, your coach is either extremely bad at diagnosing and troubleshooting, or if you are self-coaching, you are very bad diagnosing and troubleshooting.
The people who tend to practice a lot and get nowhere tend to consistently misdiagnose their issue and stubbornly believe that their diagnosis (or the diagnosis given by their coach) is correct.

 

[NDH]

To the people who claim to be doing over 100k loops and still not getting it, your coach is either extremely bad at diagnosing and troubleshooting, or if you are self-coaching, you are very bad diagnosing and troubleshooting.
The people who tend to practice a lot and get nowhere tend to consistently misdiagnose their issue and stubbornly believe that their diagnosis (or the diagnosis given by their coach) is correct.

I think it's *very* hard to self diagnose table tennis strokes.

A camera and online feedback will get you so far, but it pales in comparison to having an actual coach (preferably a good one, but any coach who knows the mechanics of the shots will do!)

I always find it really impressive when people are completely self taught, and continue improving through their own analysis.

 

[NextLevel]

If I am playing a practice match with my training partners, I refrain from doing serves that could win the point right away (e.g. maximum backspin serve), or serves that they would frequently mis-read. I tend to do serves that prevent them from attacking first, so I can practice my opening up shots. If I do 100% of my serves, the rallies become short and I don't feel I get as much benefit as I need more practices on the later shots. I do service practices on my own.

This makes perfect sense. I would say just don't use the serves all the time but should use them maybe 5% because table tennis is about winning not rallying and you want to know what the opponent does against such serves when they come back.

 

[NextLevel]

To the people who claim to be doing over 100k loops and still not getting it, your coach is either extremely bad at diagnosing and troubleshooting, or if you are self-coaching, you are very bad diagnosing and troubleshooting.
The people who tend to practice a lot and get nowhere tend to consistently misdiagnose their issue and stubbornly believe that their diagnosis (or the diagnosis given by their coach) is correct.

While I get your point, given that I have met both you and BRS in person, I would say that since you are someone who got decent coaching at a young age, I would encourage you not to underestimate the challenges faced by adult learners. We don't play TT because we got lucky to play well as kids, we play TT because we love to play. even if we may suck at it. And sometimes, something doesnt click no matter how hard we try and we just try something else. This happens to kids too, otherwise Falck would not be using short pips on forehand.

I personally felt BRS had a decent backhand loop but he never felt comfortable with the shot. Given his playing level is pretty good for someone who started playing in his 40s, it is worth understanding a bit more before thinking it is fundamentally about some thing obvious being wrong.

 

[songdavid98]

While I get your point, given that I have met both you and BRS in person, I would say that since you are someone who got decent coaching at a young age, I would encourage you not to underestimate the challenges faced by adult learners. We don't play TT because we got lucky to play well as kids, we play TT because we love to play. even if we may suck at it. And sometimes, something doesnt click no matter how hard we try and we just try something else. This happens to kids too, otherwise Falck would not be using short pips on forehand.

I personally felt BRS had a decent backhand loop but he never felt comfortable with the shot. Given his playing level is pretty good for someone who started playing in his 40s, it is worth understanding a bit more before thinking it is fundamentally about some thing obvious being wrong.

Most of the people I coach are adults, but I have always succeeded in making things click for my students (as long as they believed me), whether they be in their 20s, 40s, or 70s.

They'll have some problem and the first thing I have to do is change their mindset and challenge their misdiagnosis. Then things click and they make rapid progression after that.

The example with Falck is strange, given that his coach made him switch at 14 due to "not enough spin from lack of arm acceleration". If your arm can accelerate fast enough to smash a ball, it should go fast enough to loop the ball too.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Most of the people I coach are adults, but I have always succeeded in making things click for my students (as long as they believed me), whether they be in their 20s, 40s, or 70s.

They'll have some problem and the first thing I have to do is change their mindset and challenge their misdiagnosis. Then things click and they make rapid progression after that.

The example with Falck is strange, given that his coach made him switch at 14 due to "not enough spin from lack of arm acceleration". If

Flar drive would mean giving the ball speed but not spin, looping would mean giving the ball both speed and spin (unless it's a brush loop). So Looping would require more kinetic energy, hence faster arm acceleration. Although in reality it's more complicated than that.

 

[NextLevel]

Most of the people I coach are adults, but I have always succeeded in making things click for my students (as long as they believed me), whether they be in their 20s, 40s, or 70s.

They'll have some problem and the first thing I have to do is change their mindset and challenge their misdiagnosis. Then things click and they make rapid progression after that.

The example with Falck is strange, given that his coach made him switch at 14 due to "not enough spin from lack of arm acceleration". If your arm can accelerate fast enough to smash a ball, it should go fast enough to loop the ball too.

So how many people have coached from beginner to USATT 2000? Just curious.

In fact, the example of Falck makes the point. Sometimes, a coach modifies something because he notes that a player doesn't seem to do well with a specific approach to the ball. It isn't always technical, it can just be that he sees a special talent for something that he doesn't want to waste time focusing om what the person doesn't do well. Or do you really believe that Falck can't topspin even at his current age?

 

[songdavid98]

So how many people have coached from beginner to USATT 2000? Just curious.

In fact, the example of Falck makes the point. Sometimes, a coach modifies something because he notes that a player doesn't seem to do well with a specific approach to the ball. It isn't always technical, it can just be that he sees a special talent for something that he doesn't want to waste time focusing om what the person doesn't do well. Or do you really believe that Falck can't topspin even at his current age?

I theorize that his coach probably thought he would be more talented with pips rather than something not clicking. I don't know how you came that accusation there.

I only started really coaching half a year ago, so none from beginner to 2000, but I have 1 man in his 40s that went from basement player to about 1600 in 10 lessons.

EDIT: The other students are improving fast, but don't play enough to see significant progression.

 

[NextLevel]

I theorize that his coach probably thought he would be more talented with pips rather than something not clicking. I don't know how you came that accusation there.

I only started really coaching half a year ago, so none from beginner to 2000, but I have 1 man in his 40s that went from basement player to about 1600 in 10 lessons.

EDIT: The other students are improving fast, but don't play enough to see significant progression.

Of course his coach might have thought he would be more talented with pips. But I think you miss the point that you can be good at something, but not high level enough or even personally comfortable with doing it to feel that you are doing it. BRS is a USATT 2000 level player. He knows how to do a backhand loop - that I have no doubt about. When he says he doesn't get it, he isn't speaking purely about technique.

You are doing a great job coaching and I commend you for developing a player at that age. BRS with his statements is a 2000 level player. Build that level of player and let's see whether you will take most of the credit for his improvement.

 

[songdavid98]

Of course his coach might have thought he would be more talented with pips. But I think you miss the point that you can be good at something, but not high level enough or even personally comfortable with doing it to feel that you are doing it. BRS is a USATT 2000 level player. He knows how to do a backhand loop - that I have no doubt about. When he says he doesn't get it, he isn't speaking purely about technique.

You are doing a great job coaching and I commend you for developing a player at that age. BRS with his statements is a 2000 level player. Build that level of player and let's see whether you will take most of the credit for his improvement.

Funny that you mention that last sentence, because that same person was getting coaching from a more traditional coach and was getting nowhere and instantly felt improvement when I came in. Another older gentleman, Alex Zubatov, who was a 2000 long pips blocker, had a similar experience with me and was the one who suggested I start coaching in the first place. Now Alex can loop both wings alongside his long pips blocking.

As for BRS, I would investigate why the backhand loop isn't comfortable enough or high level enough rather than just give up on BRS. If it is just low quality of the backhand loop, there's probably either a lack of racket speed or some technical issue. If it is not comfortable, it can be an sub-optimal positioning, stance, or some technical issue. Maybe the backhand loop is strategically unnecessarily, in which case, he doesn't need it. But being 2000 isn't an excuse to ignore an issue like that, nor is it a sign that there isn't a solution. Maybe BRS can be 2200 with a good backhand, who knows?

 

[blahness]

I agree. When the technique is immature, you don't have a good feel for the shot yet, so when you miss a shot in the game, you don't necessarily know what you did wrong. Maybe you were too late, too early, brushed too much, didn't brush enough, read the spin wrong, aimed too high, aimed too low, stood too tall, squatted too low, etc. etc. You need to try out all the possible permutations in practice until you know the shot well enough that whenever you miss, you know exactly what you did wrong. Only then does using matches as practice become useful. Otherwise you could be adjusting your aim when you should be adjusting your stance height, adjusting your brushing when you should be adjusting your timing, etc.

Maximizing your range in training is very important as well. It's always more difficult to get into position and it always takes longer to determine which shot to use in real games, that's the reason success rate is much lower during games than in practice. Being able to hit the shot under less than ideal conditions is quite important, and all attempts should be made to build that into training whenever possible.

I don't have the benefit of a robot or multiball so all my practice is from actual scenarios in hitting with human opponents, so for me the transition was quite natural. I had to substitute it with a lot of shadow practice in front of a mirror instead.

On shot stability, I saw a clip by Zhang Jike sharing how he practices. He says that he mostly practices a lot of late timing loops, done with as much spin and feeling as possible. This is something I always go for in training too. Imo once you have extremely good feeling on spinning the ball your consistency will skyrocket, because of the added safety margin that the Magnus effect adds, and also increased spin production means it becomes easier to override the incoming spin of the ball which means there's less need for angle adjustments. Also taking the ball late allows you much more room to actually look at the ball, decode its trajectory which increases consistency significantly.

What I noticed in my own journey of improvement is that there's a concept of spin supremacy - when I level up it's mostly because I'm producing and controlling increased amounts of spin. If you have "spin supremacy" over your opponent it becomes quite easy to win because you can handle their spin easily while they can't handle yours. If they have "spin supremacy" over you it becomes a very hard battle where you struggle to even loop their heavy pushes and their serves, and when they loop you can't even control it because it's just too spinny.

 

[NextLevel]

Funny that you mention that last sentence, because that same person was getting coaching from a more traditional coach and was getting nowhere and instantly felt improvement when I came in. Another older gentleman, Alex Zubatov, who was a 2000 long pips blocker, had a similar experience with me and was the one who suggested I start coaching in the first place. Now Alex can loop both wings alongside his long pips blocking.

As for BRS, I would investigate why the backhand loop isn't comfortable enough or high level enough rather than just give up on BRS. If it is just low quality of the backhand loop, there's probably either a lack of racket speed or some technical issue. If it is not comfortable, it can be an sub-optimal positioning, stance, or some technical issue. Maybe the backhand loop is strategically unnecessarily, in which case, he doesn't need it. But being 2000 isn't an excuse to ignore an issue like that, nor is it a sign that there isn't a solution. Maybe BRS can be 2200 with a good backhand, who knows?

I know Zubatov, played him a couple of times at different playing levels. I presume he is now a two winged looper and doesnt use pips anymore? Talk to BRS and see whether he will take you up on it. My main point here is that BRS is not a scrub because he can't backhand loop, and that while it is okay to be confident in your coaching abilities, there are many good players who can play a stroke but just do not enjoy doing it or for whom it is not their best choice. How you interpret their choices is your prerogative, I have no doubt BRS may have been failed by his coaches. Hopefully he is interested in working with you.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Well, I don’t know, I watched the video where Gonzo played, in my opinion, he needs to develop foot movements first of all.

Guilty as charged. To put in some context, I only started serious TT in Jan-22 at a fantabulous age of late forties. Previously I was a garage / rec player due to the COVID lockdown, I had nothing else to do in 2019, 2000 & 2021 during the lockdown. Serious here means getting proper coaching. I am still learning. Give me some time.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Your relationship fascinates me so I will be watching closely.

In all seriousness, looping backspin requires a certain feeling of shaping the ball and developing it with extremely fast rackets and confidently hitting the table is challenging and the rackets will tend to send the ball long (or into the net) if your timing is not extremely precise since the arc is longer and flatter. So your success will be a big win for people who seriously believe that coaching can overcome really fast equipment even at the beginner to low intermediate level - remember you are not just Viscaria fast, you are one ply hinoki fast with Bluefire and MX-P. I personally would just as your coach force you to use something slower to practice the feeling even if you want to use your faster racket to play matches.

In any case, good luck with it.

Ha ha ha, apparently I am one of a kind. No one I know in my TT circle uses similar TT equipment as I do.

I've just remembered something. During my first few lessons with him, I was using Stiga All Round Classic with neoH2 both side. After six lessons or so, he told me to get rid of it and use Spring Sponge rubber coz they were too slow and lack power for his liking. Being the cheapskate that I was, I chosed to use ESN instead of Spring Sponge rubber. Ever since then, I had been stucked with ESN and my lil'friend until now. He ( the coach ) has never ask me to change equipment again thus far.

p/s {In hushed tone} - My lil'friend & I went to a National Event and won a wee gold medal last month. Don't tell my mum what I did last summer .

My B 1 T C H S L 4 P won the day!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I've checked through my YT archive and my last coaching recording was more than six months ago. My recent recordings are mainly match play.

Okay. It would be worth your while to get yourself a video of you looping backspin after backspin after backspin and seeing things like your success rate and how it looks to do a few buckets of balls where you are just looping backspin over and over again. Doing it is good. But seeing it will also be worthwhile for you.

 

[NextLevel]

Ha ha ha, apparently I am one of a kind. No one I know in my TT circle uses similar TT equipment as I do.

p/s {In hushed tone} - My lil'friend & I went to a National Event and won a wee gold medal last month. Don't tell my mum what I did last summer.

Yes, you did win a medal in doubles. Do you plan to only play doubles? And will your partner from that event, who clearly could loop backspin, always play with you?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Okay. It would be worth your while to get yourself a video of you looping backspin after backspin after backspin and seeing things like your success rate and how it looks to do a few buckets of balls where you are just looping backspin over and over again. Doing it is good. But seeing it will also be worthwhile for you.

Sure my friend.

I'll video my next coaching session which will be in Apr23.