For those who think pips have a ceiling

[blahness]

Sorry, this argument is completely invalid. Can you name any double inverted player who can win a Tour at 60 yr old?

It is only possible with the magic of pips to disrupt the opponent's game.

 

[driversbeat]

I don't know about no ceiling, it's just a feeder tournament after all. No ceiling applies if a pip player wins Olympics/World Champs but we haven't seen anyone come close in recent years (Falck didn't even meet Chinese players on his way to WTTC 2019 finals). But it's fair to say that the ceiling is very very very high and one that most of us mortals will never come close to reaching.

 

[Draycott old man]

Ni Xia Lian is incredible!!!! To still be that competitive at 60 is unbelievable!!!! That's why I love this sport so much !!! You can be competitive at almost any age !!!! Not bothered who was in the tournament!!! She won it at 60 !!! Amazing!!! A legend!!!!

 

[blahness]

I don't know about no ceiling, it's just a feeder tournament after all. No ceiling applies if a pip player wins Olympics/World Champs but we haven't seen anyone come close in recent years (Falck didn't even meet Chinese players on his way to WTTC 2019 finals). But it's fair to say that the ceiling is very very very high and one that most of us mortals will never come close to reaching.

Yes but would a 60 yr old double inverted player ever win a feeder?

 

[Ghostzen]

Great achievement at any age to be fair. Even more so at 60.

Unfortunately it's the very minority of players who can compete at this level at this age. Its a true testimonial to great play.

It would be interesting to see the number of pips players overall who win events.

I'm guessing it's a very high percentage of normal rubber.

Super skill is needed to win a tour event even a feeder. Whatever equipment the player decides to play with....

Amazing to see an older player still fighting hard.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Yes but would a 60 yr old double inverted player ever win a feeder?

Winning a Feeder at 60 years of age is a fantastic achievement, but I would say that when you take the bigger picture into consideration, rather than this being evidence of no ceiling, if you took this tournament win and plotted it on a graph, I think this 'data point' would actually be a pretty good indicator of where that pips ceiling actually resides based on objective results! In other words, winning a Feeder event with pips is just about possible, but that's pretty much as far as you can go with pips in the modern game; the more elite levels of competition being dominated by double-inverted players.

 

[Brs]

When Ni was young pips-out penhold was winning world champs and Olympics. There is this guy you may have heard of, Liu Guoliang.

She never changed from that style, and why should she?

 

[blahness]

Winning a Feeder at 60 years of age is a fantastic achievement, but I would say that when you take the bigger picture into consideration, rather than this being evidence of no ceiling, if you took this tournament win and plotted it on a graph, I think this 'data point' would actually be a pretty good indicator of where that pips ceiling actually resides based on objective results! In other words, winning a Feeder event with pips is just about possible, but that's pretty much as far as you can go with pips in the modern game; the more elite levels of competition being dominated by double-inverted players.

The lack of 60 yr old double inverted champions shows that pips can be used to overcome significant issues in mobility and athleticism, which can be seen as an unfair equipment based advantage.

Ito is also a Olympic champion and is one of the best non CNT players during her peak years. Recently Sun Yingsha world no.1 also lost to an Indian playing with pips/anti.

The reason why i made this thread is that there's this weird idea in the forum that pips players have some ceiling which I want to disprove (and most of them saying this are extremely far away from this ceiling anyway that it basically doesnt even matter).

Most coaches simply don't teach this style, therefore there isn't enough of them to dominate the world.

A lot of pips players also have weaknesses in other areas (for eg Ito didn't have a very good FH loop compared to her peers) so they haven't exactly truly maximized the potential in the style. For eg I hypothesise that a twiddling Ryu Seung Min style player would actually really put some serious dents into the current TT "meta".

 

[ViperTableTennis]

The lack of 60 yr old double inverted champions shows that pips can be used to overcome significant issues in mobility and athleticism, which can be seen as an unfair equipment based advantage.

Ito is also a Olympic champion and is one of the best non CNT players during her peak years. Recently Sun Yingsha world no.1 also lost to an Indian playing with pips/anti.

The reason why i made this thread is that there's this weird idea in the forum that pips players have some ceiling which I want to disprove (and most of them saying this are extremely far away from this ceiling anyway that it basically doesnt even matter).

Most coaches simply don't teach this style, therefore there isn't enough of them to dominate the world.

A lot of pips players also have weaknesses in other areas (for eg Ito didn't have a very good FH loop compared to her peers)

I think this may be a terminology issue here; it appears that what you really meant to say was something like "pips can have some advantages for some players compared to other rubbers". This is certainly true and I would not disagree with such a statement...but that's saying something very different to "pips don't have a ceiling"

 

[blahness]

I think this may be a terminology issue here; it appears that what you really meant to say was something like "pips can have some advantages for some players compared to other rubbers". This is certainly true and I would not disagree with such a statement...but that's saying something very different to "pips don't have a ceiling"

From the perspective of amateur players and even a lot of pros, there is no ceiling. There may be a ceiling of say world top5 but that's already out of the woods like top 99.999% of TT players that it doesnt even matter anyway...

They said the same crap about penhold being outdated but here comes Felix destroying so many top players and getting into world top 5.

 

[NDH]

From the perspective of amateur players and even a lot of pros, there is no ceiling. There may be a ceiling of say world top5 but that's already out of the woods like top 99.999% of TT players that it doesnt even matter anyway...

That argument is very flawed.

The "ceiling" argument holds weight as you move down through the levels of ability.

I beat almost all pips players I play against - But last weekend I got absolutely stuffed by a better player (UK number 75 or something) and he uses pips.

Does that suddenly mean pips are the answer?

There is no denying that pips can give certain players advantages they would not have otherwise.

Players who struggle with mobility, or general attacking technique for example.

But the "ceiling" argument is that if your opponents can overcome your pips, there is just nothing else you can do - You have no weapons and your ceiling is lower.

You see this all the way through the ability spectrum.

A very low level player will win a lot of matches with pips, but then get stuffed at the next level up.

But a pips player at the next level up who has a lot of experience there, will have the same success.... and then stuffed in the next level.

And so on.

Until you get to the very top, where you don't really have many pips players, because the very (very) good player stuff them.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

From the perspective of amateur players and even a lot of pros, there is no ceiling. There may be a ceiling of say world top5 but that's already out of the woods like top 99.999% of TT players that it doesnt even matter anyway...

They said the same crap about penhold being outdated but here comes Felix destroying so many top players and getting into world top 5.

OK, I think you're now shifting the goalposts a bit. You're now talking about 'ceiling' more in the context of 'that ceiling won't hinder personal improvement for the vast majority of players'. Of course, that not only acknowledges that there is a ceiling, but when you started out you were talking more about the innate qualities of the equipment itself ("for those who think pips have a ceiling"). I would agree with you that many players wont ever get to the elite levels where their pips will start to show their limitations relative to other styles of play...but that's doesn't disprove the lower ceiling that pips have relative to double-inverted; it just means even the lower ceiling still gives most players enough head-room

 

[Dominikk85]

I think at the very highest level there is a ceiling, the absolute top players are able to handle pips. Timo boll, ma long, fan zhendong or in the past players like Waldner did rarely if ever lose against pips players.

However at the lower ranked pro range (like 50-150 in the world) there are some players who struggle against pips especially amongst younger, inexperienced guys.

So I would say that there is a ceiling but for most guys it doesn't matter.

If you are a 20 year old adult beginner worrying about having a "modern style" probably doesn't really matter, for the levels you can reach as an adult beginner the style doesn't really matter, just pick a style you enjoy.

As for pips being an advantage: I do believe she wouldn't be able to compete at that level at her age but still pips aren't an automatic level boost. Yes, her style can compensate certain physical limitations but there are thousands of pips players who never get close to her level.

So she does need pips to stay at her level at that age but she also needs other skills that 99.99% of all pips players do not have.


That is true for all "non standard" players. For example ma lin was double inverted and could play RPB but he still was mostly a one sided PH player who would only occasionally use RPB.

To compete with and beat great two winged double inverted players like boll, Waldner, WLQ and others he needed an insane amount of tricks that the normal players didn't have. Apart from an insane forehand for him it was great serving, short game, anticipation, those chop blocks and all kind of other tricks to keep them from abusing his BH wing.

So really I think a non standard style can help certain players but apart from your style and equipment those players do need a lot of special tricks that are innate and can't really be taught.

If this wasn't true any 50 year old decent inverted player could buy some equipment and be the next he zhi wen or ni xia Liang.

 

[blahness]

OK, I think you're now shifting the goalposts a bit. You're now talking about 'ceiling' more in the context of 'that ceiling won't hinder personal improvement for the vast majority of players'. Of course, that not only acknowledges that there is a ceiling, but when you started out you were talking more about the innate qualities of the equipment itself ("for those who think pips have a ceiling"). I would agree with you that many players wont ever get to the elite levels where their pips will start to show their limitations relative to other styles of play...but that's doesn't disprove the lower ceiling that pips have relative to double-inverted; it just means even the lower ceiling still gives most players enough head-room

Its not shifting the goalposts. Pips players simply haven't figured out a lot of optimal solutions unlike double inverted where there has been a lot of research and development. In fact a lot of pips players with suboptimal technique (for eg Luka) or not so good physicality and movement (for eg Ni Xia Lian) are still doing very well.

But regardless of that, the idea of a pips ceiling is kinda dumb in the face of all these facts.

 

[blahness]

Most amateur pips players have the wrong idea to try to use their equipment to disgust the opponent to try to get cheap points. And they never actually ever bother to train the full range of pip shots or invent their own unlike a lot of inverted players who have to upgrade their technique as they go up the ladder - just look at all the discussions about footwork, chiquita, how to improve quality of the loop, etc... I just don't see the same effort being put in by many pips players.

Obviously players like those have a ceiling but that ceiling is just self imposed, and not an actual ceiling.

 

[zeio]

Ayhika's win rate has been rather poor since 2020... For CSY, she doesn't know how to play this style...
https://youtu.be/wxbFuppD9Lc?t=6996

 

[pingpongpaddy]

Different rubbers make for interesting matches
but
Its not about...
the bat..
or
the rubber.
its about the player !

and long may that continue.

just reflect on
HZW (sp vet)
beating
world champ schlager
and
olympic champ ryu seung min
in the same league match

 

[zeio]

Speaking of the new generation, JNT players are much better at playing against this style. Ishikawa, Ito, Nagasaki, Kihara and Harimoto took NXL apart. Shibata and Hayata won with some resistance. Fukuhara and Hashimoto lost in close games.

Fukuhara
R32 3-4 Zagreb Open 2015 (5, -11, -6, -8, 5, 9, -7)
R16 4-1 Brazilian Open 2007 (9, 7, -3, 5, 8)

Ishikawa
R32 4-0 China Open 2019 (4, 8, 2, 2)

Mori
SF 3-2 WTT FEE Stockholm (4, -6, 4, -6, 8)

Shibata
R16 4-1 Spanish Open 2018 (4, -10, 7, 11, 9)

Hashimoto
R32 3-4 Austrian Open 2017 (9, 5, -6, -6, 5, -14, -16)

Hayata
R16 4-2 Austrian Open 2017 (6, 9, -8, -5, 6, 5)

Nagasaki
R32 3-1 WTT CT Muscat 2023 (7, -8, 6, 12)
R16 3-0 WTT CT Nova Gorica 2022 (3, 9, 5)
Grp 4-3 Swedish Open 2017 (-8, -8, -9, 5, 3, 9, 6)

Kihara
R32 4-0 Croatia Open 2019 (5, 3, 7, 10)
R16 4-0 Belarus Open 2018 (5, 5, 6, 9)

Harimoto
Grp 3-0 WTTC 2024 (10, 3, 8)

Xia Lian Ni vs Miyu Nagasaki | WS R32 | WTT Contender Muscat 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBSbNTZfts
Highlights | Xia Lian Ni vs Miyu Nagasaki | WS R16 | WTT Contender Nova Gorica 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_EJmGp2Bs

Miyuu Kihara vs Ni Xia Lian | 2018 ITTF Challenge Belarus Open Highlights (R16)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afCOsnFYnIQ

150521 t1 FUKUHARA Ai JPN NI Xialian LUX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwBSJ4uYb_8

 

[blahness]

Speaking of the new generation, JNT players are much better at playing against this style. Ishikawa, Ito, Nagasaki and Kihara took NXL apart. Shibata won with some resistance. Fukuhara and Hashimoto lost in close games.

Fukuhara
R32 3-4 Zagreb Open 2015 (5, -11, -6, -8, 5, 9, -7)
R16 4-1 Brazilian Open 2007 (9, 7, -3, 5, 8)

Ishikawa
R32 4-0 China Open 2019 (4, 8, 2, 2)

Shibata
R16 4-1 Spanish Open 2018 (4, -10, 7, 11, 9)

Hashimoto
R32 3-4 Austrian Open 2017 (9, 5, -6, -6, 5, -14, -16)

Nagasaki
R32 3-1 WTT CT Muscat 2023 (7, -8, 6, 12)
R16 3-0 WTT CT Nova Gorica 2022 (3, 9, 5)
Grp 4-3 Swedish Open 2017 (-8, -8, -9, 5, 3, 9, 6)

Kihara
R32 4-0 Croatia Open 2019 (5, 3, 7, 10)
R16 4-0 Belarus Open 2018 (5, 5, 6, 9)

Xia Lian Ni vs Miyu Nagasaki | WS R32 | WTT Contender Muscat 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byBSbNTZfts
Highlights | Xia Lian Ni vs Miyu Nagasaki | WS R16 | WTT Contender Nova Gorica 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_EJmGp2Bs

Miyuu Kihara vs Ni Xia Lian | 2018 ITTF Challenge Belarus Open Highlights (R16)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afCOsnFYnIQ

150521 t1 FUKUHARA Ai JPN NI Xialian LUX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwBSJ4uYb_8

Both Kihara and Ito are pips players too btw

 

[Kopp]

Both Kihara and Ito are pips players too btw

Short pips, yes? Doesn't it behave like inverted rubber to certain extent?