My experience with Chinese rubbers

[latej]

There was the question what to take for the FH, when his B2 nat BS H38 is spent, either again the verified B2 nat BS, but H39 this time, or the Battle 3 H39, or the J&H Z 52.5 (which was almost new). I'm glad I put the B3 on the backup blade, and the J&H Z on the main blade. It is a bit faster, hardness is good, but it is bouncier than B2. So, if he dislikes it, he'll glue the B2 nat BS H39.

I tried the B3 on the XVT Hinoki Carbon, which itself is different feeling. I played with it only twice, and my impression, tbh, is not very good. The sponge is good, I don't feel difference, but the top-sheet is really hard, hard to engage. Actually it felt harder to engage then the DFVP (where I measured the similar top-sheet hardness). The B3 was boosted with 1 layer, then 2 days wait. It's possibly it will break in a bit, but I won't witness it, my friend lives in Germany. For comparison, the R9, the sponge is about as hard as DFVP (also harder than B3 H39 as you can see), but the top-sheet is very different. It is really elastic in R9, you can feel how it takes the ball. Actually I sometimes wish the top-sheet is a bit harder, but not as much as the B3. So, I won't test B3 again, perhaps if it is released with blue sponge, I might try again. But until then, I'd much rather take B2 nat BS H40, or STN for myself, or R9 again, if I stay strictly chinese on the FH (which remains to be seen).

Short note about the H3 prov. BS H41, you can see how cheated that is. Nowhere close to the expected hardness, and that is the 3rd sheet with this issue, and as you know, H3 prov. is about 50EUR on Ali, so, no thanks, good bye. I know H3 is the best, but I don't want to try H3 nat. for double that price. There really are better options, for my level of play.

The Vega Pro I find very good. I can get Vegas for good price. I know Vega X is good, and Vega Pro is slightly softer, good grip, a bit slower, but close. So the BH was C1, and now it was spent, so I gave him Vega Pro and he likes it. In compare to C1, the Vega Pro is a bit of an upgrade, slightly faster, slightly harder, but still within range. I think good choice. The Vega Europe on the other hand, felt a bit too soft. So it is on the spare blade, together with B3.

So, we all feel differently... Cheers.

Edit: Not many people around me play with chinese rubbers, really. Some even try to actively persuade me to use something else, that it will "shift" me ;-) Well, I understand that point, but I like the chinese sponge feedback, it's addictive. Also, some opponents complained, that my rubber plays differently and breaks their rhytm ;-) Another plus-point. However this doubt remains, so I do consider hybrid rubbers. Another friend is playing with RZ EH, so I'll test it. Apart from that I consider the K2 which @Zwill recommended, and also the Joola Tronix ZGR. Will see if I succumb, and take one of those 3 for the FH.

For the BH, I'm quite happy with Vega X, only will take max this time, or possibly Omega 7 Pro. Maybe other suggestions will appear ;-) However I need to spent my current rubbers first, same strategy as @JJ Ng ;-)

 

[Lawsy]

There was the question what to take for the FH, when his B2 nat BS H38 is spent, either again the verified B2 nat BS, but H39 this time, or the Battle 3 H39, or the J&H Z 52.5 (which was almost new). I'm glad I put the B3 on the backup blade, and the J&H Z on the main blade. It is a bit faster, hardness is good, but it is bouncier than B2. So, if he dislikes it, he'll glue the B2 nat BS H39.

I tried the B3 on the XVT Hinoki Carbon, which itself is different feeling. I played with it only twice, and my impression, tbh, is not very good. The sponge is good, I don't feel difference, but the top-sheet is really hard, hard to engage. Actually it felt harder to engage then the DFVP (where I measured the similar top-sheet hardness). The B3 was boosted with 1 layer, then 2 days wait. It's possibly it will break in a bit, but I won't witness it, my friend lives in Germany. For comparison, the R9, the sponge is about as hard as DFVP (also harder than B3 H39 as you can see), but the top-sheet is very different. It is really elastic in R9, you can feel how it takes the ball. Actually I sometimes wish the top-sheet is a bit harder, but not as much as the B3. So, I won't test B3 again, perhaps if it is released with blue sponge, I might try again. But until then, I'd much rather take B2 nat BS H40, or STN for myself, or R9 again, if I stay strictly chinese on the FH (which remains to be seen).

Short note about the H3 prov. BS H41, you can see how cheated that is. Nowhere close to the expected hardness, and that is the 3rd sheet with this issue, and as you know, H3 prov. is about 50EUR on Ali, so, no thanks, good bye. I know H3 is the best, but I don't want to try H3 nat. for double that price. There really are better options, for my level of play.

The Vega Pro I find very good. I can get Vegas for good price. I know Vega X is good, and Vega Pro is slightly softer, good grip, a bit slower, but close. So the BH was C1, and now it was spent, so I gave him Vega Pro and he likes it. In compare to C1, the Vega Pro is a bit of an upgrade, slightly faster, slightly harder, but still within range. I think good choice. The Vega Europe on the other hand, felt a bit too soft. So it is on the spare blade, together with B3.

So, we all feel differently... Cheers.

Edit: Not many people around me play with chinese rubbers, really. Some even try to actively persuade me to use something else, that it will "shift" me ;-) Well, I understand that point, but I like the chinese sponge feedback, it's addictive. Also, some opponents complained, that my rubber plays differently and breaks their rhytm ;-) Another plus-point. However this doubt remains, so I do consider hybrid rubbers. Another friend is playing with RZ EH, so I'll test it. Apart from that I consider the K2 which @Zwill recommended, and also the Joola Tronix ZGR. Will see if I succumb, and take one of those 3 for the FH.

For the BH, I'm quite happy with Vega X, only will take max this time, or possibly Omega 7 Pro. Maybe other suggestions will appear ;-) However I need to spent my current rubbers first, same strategy as @JJ Ng ;-)

This is all really good information—it's further helps to make sense of my experience with Battle 3 compared with a host of B2 variants, and GA8 50.
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Disclaimer:
I hope I'm not being too much of a 729 Fanboy here, but I love understanding the technical aspects of how these rubbers do what they do. So anytime more data is available, it fills a knowledge gap, which I can relate to my setup. And, it seems to somehow be of use to others... Though, I'm not entirely sure how...
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B2P Blue Sponge and B2 National have virtually the same sponge (if not identical, but hunting for sources to confirm seems difficult). It might be more durable, or the top sheet may have more tack... Most say it plays the same.

So keep in mind...

I won't rehash what I've already said, but specifically regarding dwell time; within the first few hours (for both of my B3 setups), there virtually wasn't any! It was hard to brush compared with any B2 variant at lower speeds, and since I was just trying to figure out its character, I spent most of the first sessions with B3 playing quite slowly (and feeling stupid for spending that much money).

I really wish I had just ripped into it straight away, instead of babying it.
Adding power revealed the true potential of B3 when brand new; I felt it bite the ball and the spin was just awesome, and it had great top-end speed. But, I was still nervous nonetheless as I didn't know how much it would break in (especially the B3 39, the biggest change happened quite late, after 15 hours or so). Keeping it really clean allowed me to play almost normally, but my loops were less consistent.

B2P BS 39 is objectively better out of the box and stayed more consistent for me. It broke in, sure, but it wasn't so dramatic.

However, after 20 - 25 hours, my B3's became different animals. I can even compare the harder B3 40 with B2P BS 39:

• Significantly more tack (not surprising), which still holds today (suggests excellent durability).
• Equal dwell time.
• Equal to, or greater mechanical grip.
• More responsive mid-range and above (overall faster), but the big top-end it had when brand new comes down to lower power levels, which is fine, but pro's would like it more when new.
  • NOTE: B3 is slower at touch/service (which I prefer), then speeds up and becomes linear again.
  • This means B2P BS is overall more linear, but slower past mid power.
• Equal control.
  • These are honestly more controlled than tacky rubbers have any right to be (could it just be what I'm used to?).

So, latej, as long as your friend doesn't give up, I think he will ultimately have a better solution over the long term, which should end up being cheaper, since it will last longer.

I also think if you're well ranked, and hitting 80% as hard as a professional player, you'll be able to tap into and really like that brand new top-end speed+spin, as this seemed to last a good 10 ish hours, but it's tamed down by 15 - 20 hours.

For anyone not hitting so hard who wants the perfect feeling straight out of the box, B3 is not your rubber (at least, not the 39 or 40 versions).

 

[gordonluvsu]

Battle 3 needs break in time.
At the start it was really slow.
After some time it got to shine.
Especially mit distance loops felt awesome and had Great quality.
I can use R9 and Battle 3 interchangeably.
R9 is a little more controlled and less deadly.
But I dont need deadliness in my loops yet, my opponents arent at a level where that makes a difference.

Never had B2, so cant compare, but amongst the Chinese Forehand rubbers I know, the Battle 3 is in my top 3.

 

[Lawsy]

Battle 3 needs break in time.
At the start it was really slow.
After some time it got to shine.
Especially mit distance loops felt awesome and had Great quality.
I can use R9 and Battle 3 interchangeably.
R9 is a little more controlled and less deadly.
But I dont need deadliness in my loops yet, my opponents arent at a level where that makes a difference.

Never had B2, so cant compare, but amongst the Chinese Forehand rubbers I know, the Battle 3 is in my top 3.

Which hardness B3 and R9 have you been using?

After 25-30 hours, looping has become stupid easy and really controlled for me (with the 40).

I sold the 39 right as it started to really break in (15 hours), so I don't know if it does the same thing (it probably does).

 

[AndySmith]

I've had a few sessions with Battle 3 38 degree recently and really like it. I liked Battle 1 back in the day, but never tried any of the Battle 2 variants. B3 has less tack, a more lively sponge. A bit of booster and it would compare very favourably to ESN hybrids, unboosted would probably suit harder blades to add a bit of initial kick, but it's still much more accessible unboosted than many chinese rubbers. Really good rubber, lots of potential.

If you're into the classic rock-hard, hi-tack chinese style then probably not. But a cheap, effective hybrid? Worth a go.

 

[gordonluvsu]

Which hardness B3 and R9 have you been using?

After 25-30 hours, looping has become stupid easy and really controlled for me (with the 40).

I sold the 39 right as it started to really break in (15 hours), so I don't know if it does the same thing (it probably does).

Both 40°.
Boosted R9 and reboosted B3.
Got another unopened B3 40 in my drawer for when I need it.
They keep their quality for a long time.
Even my first R9 that I reboosted still has good tackiness and plays well.
Even though the topsheet Looks worn, it doesnt play worse.

 

[latej]

So, latej, as long as your friend doesn't give up, I think he will ultimately have a better solution over the long term, which should end up being cheaper, since it will last longer.

The thing is, he'd have to adapt to the carbon blade. It is a good blade, but the difference, you know, is not negligible, to put it mildly ;-) So, if he plays with that setup from time to time, it's OK. I also play with my Viscaria seldom. The Vodak Horejsi is a good blade, that's why I gave it to him... And besides, a rubber is just a rubber, so his current rubber - the Xiom J&H Z 52.5 - it's kind of an experiment, so he plays with something with non-chinese sponge on the FH for once... Then he can decide whether he wants it again, or the B2 nat BS H39, or another hybrid, as the next rubber.

Btw. I got the B2 nat from @harty, who had it in action at the time. I also don't think there is much diff to B2 prov, but the price was good, so why not? And B3 also. And, it's OK you and others like B3 and I don't, I mean yes, I could play with it, but I prefer not to ;-) Cheers.

 

[Zwill]

Today my Palio The Way arrived and I couldn't contain myself from trying it 😏
I'm pretty sure it is manufactured by Double Fish, I am good at determining Chinese factories by smell😅

Well initial impression is that the first 1 hour of the training with it was super weird, like I couldn't feel my racket under the rubber. At warm up I was like this is going to be a shitty session.
Just simple warm up was a challenge, I really couldn't feel wtf I'm doing I almost felt like a beginner.
Then after 15 minutes I played a match which was uneventful. Then I played with another guy, where I still didn't feel much but at least I noticed the rubber is very good for open ups. Much better than Mantra Pro or other hard Chinese rubbers. I could really pull the ball and keep it low over the net. I even did a roller shot from serve receive against the 2nd guy. I don't remember the last time I did a roller against anyone with harder rubbers.

Then I another clubmate arrived who's very good at blocking well I made him a racket specifically for blocking. Funnily the faster and spinner ball he receives the better he can block them. He can't really add much power to any shots himself.
Anyway at this point I felt like the rubber is changing. I started to feel my racket under it and against him I could hit some heavy and hard balls. And the rubber was inviting me to do so more and more.
I guess it broke in significantly.
By the end of the training session the rubber felt amazing. I could just about do everything with it.
I might write more of it since I think I'll keep it on my racket.

Good job, Palio!

 

[Lawsy]

Today my Palio The Way arrived and I couldn't contain myself from trying it 😏
I'm pretty sure it is manufactured by Double Fish, I am good at determining Chinese factories by smell😅

Well initial impression is that the first 1 hour of the training with it was super weird, like I couldn't feel my racket under the rubber. At warm up I was like this is going to be a shitty session.
Just simple warm up was a challenge, I really couldn't feel wtf I'm doing I almost felt like a beginner.
Then after 15 minutes I played a match which was uneventful. Then I played with another guy, where I still didn't feel much but at least I noticed the rubber is very good for open ups. Much better than Mantra Pro or other hard Chinese rubbers. I could really pull the ball and keep it low over the net. I even did a roller shot from serve receive against the 2nd guy. I don't remember the last time I did a roller against anyone with harder rubbers.

Then I another clubmate arrived who's very good at blocking well I made him a racket specifically for blocking. Funnily the faster and spinner ball he receives the better he can block them. He can't really add much power to any shots himself.
Anyway at this point I felt like the rubber is changing. I started to feel my racket under it and against him I could hit some heavy and hard balls. And the rubber was inviting me to do so more and more.
I guess it broke in significantly.
By the end of the training session the rubber felt amazing. I could just about do everything with it.
I might write more of it since I think I'll keep it on my racket.

Good job, Palio!

That's a cool progression in just a matter of a few hours. You probably play quite hard, by the sounds of it, which obviously speeds up the break in process significantly.


What do you guys think about intentional break in, away from the table?

In cricket, for example, they call this "Knocking in" a bat, and they do this using a wooden mallet, or sometimes, a literal cricket ball on a fancy stick. They tap around the sweat spot and the edges/shoulders of the bat to compress the surface, which can be important if there are any oddities in the grain structure of the specific piece of wood used for each individual bat. The result is a measurably improvement in both performance and longevity.

Should we do the same thing, where it makes sense?

Don't get me wrong, some rubbers are never as good as when they are brand new, so you would not intentionally break those in. But for others—B3 is a perfect example—break in seems to be an essential part of ownership, or for anyone who is not hitting very hard (80% professional player strength).

Any ideas?
I was thinking it could be as simple as putting a ball on a fluffy pillow, leaving the rubber protector on, and just smacking the ball into the pillow for a while.

Or is this completely pointless?

 

[Grumms]

Be careful, break-in, as much as burn-in in other domains (Hi-Fi burn-in is a well demonstrated bullshit legend), often has non measurable effects. It might come from urban legend, or "naturification" of an intert matter. There is no such things as break-in for tennis strings, they're at their best when they are "fresh" on the racket. I don't say it does not exist for rubbers, but try to not get influenced about the legend. Measurement are the only things than can prove they're has been a break-in. For example, you should drop a ball on the racket from a 1 meter height and measure the rebound when the rubber is brand new and after 10 hours.
About the grip, the same can be done by putting the racket at a 45° angle for example and check the reject angle.

 

[Zwill]

That's a cool progression in just a matter of a few hours. You probably play quite hard, by the sounds of it, which obviously speeds up the break in process significantly.


What do you guys think about intentional break in, away from the table?

In cricket, for example, they call this "Knocking in" a bat, and they do this using a wooden mallet, or sometimes, a literal cricket ball on a fancy stick. They tap around the sweat spot and the edges/shoulders of the bat to compress the surface, which can be important if there are any oddities in the grain structure of the specific piece of wood used for each individual bat. The result is a measurably improvement in both performance and longevity.

Should we do the same thing, where it makes sense?

Don't get me wrong, some rubbers are never as good as when they are brand new, so you would not intentionally break those in. But for others—B3 is a perfect example—break in seems to be an essential part of ownership, or for anyone who is not hitting very hard (80% professional player strength).

Any ideas?
I was thinking it could be as simple as putting a ball on a fluffy pillow, leaving the rubber protector on, and just smacking the ball into the pillow for a while.

Or is this completely pointless?

Yeah, I hit pretty hard, one of the reason is to break in the rubber faster. But I hit hard in general too.

I've seen Chinese players just hitting the ball in the net really hard from close. I would consider this as off the table play too, but one could just hit it in the sky and wait for it to fall back.
With some Chinese rubbers there is a break in period for sure, the rubbers and sponges get a bit more elastic and some tackiness wears off.

This is mostly speculation but:
I also see that CNT players sometime play with their red rubber for warmup which might be OK if they use Tenergy and Dignics as red and they wanna get used to it a bit in case they need to smash lobbed balls. But they are not practicing smashing and usually the players who "warm up" with red rubber too have H3 on both side. Now what is the benefit on playing with the same rubber (with softer sponge) besides breaking it in? I am not sure. There could be some other reasons I suppose, but breaking in the red rubber sounds more likely.
Also the players who play with red sometime on FH don't do it all the time just sometimes. Maybe they only do it with new rubbers.