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My experience with Chinese rubbers
- Thread starter enoxzr
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Yes it feels like that compared to the other, unboosted.
A bit higher throw angle.
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Sounds good. What I dislike most about B2 is the lower throw angle. But I don't like the B3 price. I'm now accustomed to paying less than $15 for GOOD Chinese rubbers.
This is a really clear and thorough comparison, thank you.
May I ask what hardness options you used for each?
Also, I don't know how your blade performs in terms of speed or dwell. Can you elaborate/share your thoughts on this vs. other blades you have used?
Interestingly, you felt this "slipping" thing with B3.
Did the ball have a lower throw angle?
I thought this was going to be an issue based on this one reddit comment, but the significant mechanical grip at even moderate power has me thinking this isn't what's really happening. The next time I felt this sensation, I noted I had brushed much too finely.
My current sense is that this feedback is caused by something similar to "tyre shake" in high-level drag racing for big slick tyred cars. The rubber is trying to bite, and we're feeling the top sheet snapping back and biting again. Could it simply be the mode of feedback this rubber provide when our brush angles are too fine?
Otherwise, it sounds like your assessment is virtually the same as mine.
- consistent throw aangle
- great feeling
- low spin sensitivity (while still producing enormous spin yourself).
- linear
It all mirrors my experience and these characteristics are what I like most about B3.
Did you get the sense that you could just swing at just about anything?
I also agree, at warm up rally pace, B3 is slightly slower, but this seems exaggerated because the others are non-linear and have low to mid power catapult (in my case, at least).
I will say, though, that at higher speeds/input power, my B3 40 overtakes my Gold Arc 8 50, and not insignificantly.
I believe the higher energy response of these hard rubbers is more in phase with these faster blades.
This is something I've been thinking about quite a lot recently and I'm happy to share my ideas if anyone's interested (might be old news for all I know).
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Yeah, that was my thought too, softer feel. I'm comparing to B2 though, haven't used the Battle Max
Hi Lawsy,
Hardness - 38 degrees for the B3, which some consider 'too soft' especially for a FH rubber, but as I said everyone is different!!!
Regarding the 'slipping' it isn't that bad, DNA dragon grip was worse for me when playing a drive, but it's mainly down to sort of poor technique, there just needs to be some extra friction, a little bit of brush when playing a FH drive.
Grippy Tensor rubbers with more catapult don't need that little bit of additional brushing, they are generally better for flatter hits.
Full stroke, FH topspin loops away from the table are fast enough for me!!
My blade with these rubbers on, is a bespoke SDC clone with similar properties to a BTY Primorac all wood. which has a Off-,to Off rating.
Of the 4 SDC blades I have, this is the fastest one, but nowhere near the speed of blades with 'reactive' ALC / Carbon layers. (I say 'reactive' because 2 of the SDC blades I have are DEF rated with 7+2 carbon layers, the carbon is there to try and increase the sweet spot size.)
Because it's an all wood blade, feel is very good.
Dwell time!!! I'm not good enough to judge in milliseconds whether 'Dwell Time' is long or short etc but I get good feed back from the set up, the LAC is faster and to me this means it has less 'Dwell' than the B3
Another thing - Spin Sensitivity and Throw Angle, for me these go hand in hand and could be the same thing!!
Ok, thanks for clarifying.
I think you would love the B3 39 as well. The touch game is, admittedly, a little slower still (but I like this), but it's really not significant. However, to me at least, it played faster everywhere else (on the T11S).
The B3 40 that I have on this V14 Pro is about the same as the 39 (ever so slightly slower serve, which I needed), however, it doesn't get its second wind until greater power is input, but then it gives back a lot more.
It's like putting a big turbo on your motor. You get a bit of lag, before it comes on strong.
I had a chance to really step back again and rip into a few last night, using both sides, and vary up the pace between big drives and power loops. As such, I have to take back what I said earlier. The GA8 holds its own in terms of speed up until I'm basically tapped out. Of course, the spin quality and consistency of throw angle of the GA8 is nothing like B3, but it gets the pace up a little easier, then rolls off when B3 is starting to party.
I am, however, still working on adjusting my backhand to the GA8. I think I need to take it back to basics and work up from there because my consistency last night was pretty terrible. My unforced error rate on backhand was probably 25%. About 10% into the net, and 15% were over the table. Gotta fix this!
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Updated my blades as I received my AliExpress Anniversary haul and needed something to do to get a change of mind last night.
On my T11s I now have a black Friendship Bloom Power 45 on FH and a Yinhe Moon 12 blue mid hard on BH. Same BH but 1 tad harder and a revisit to the Bloom Power for me as it stayed in the back of my mind, this time in black.
On my 2 other blades I have prepared my LP experiment for after my local league ends. One blade is a Butterfly Balsa Carbo with a Friendship Bloom Power 45 FH and Sanwei DZ OX as BH, to try as my attacking option. Other blade is a Yinhe N10s where I switched from DHS C8 OX to a C8 1.0.
I did ruin 1 sheet of Sanwei DZ with trying to glue it with VOC glue. Once the glue hit the bare rubber it curled up into a ball, destroying beyond saving. Painful, but a little less due to AliExpress sales.
On my T11s I now have a black Friendship Bloom Power 45 on FH and a Yinhe Moon 12 blue mid hard on BH. Same BH but 1 tad harder and a revisit to the Bloom Power for me as it stayed in the back of my mind, this time in black.
On my 2 other blades I have prepared my LP experiment for after my local league ends. One blade is a Butterfly Balsa Carbo with a Friendship Bloom Power 45 FH and Sanwei DZ OX as BH, to try as my attacking option. Other blade is a Yinhe N10s where I switched from DHS C8 OX to a C8 1.0.
I did ruin 1 sheet of Sanwei DZ with trying to glue it with VOC glue. Once the glue hit the bare rubber it curled up into a ball, destroying beyond saving. Painful, but a little less due to AliExpress sales.
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Played with my T11s setup and preformed as expected. Will play a little more but I really do like the Bloom Power as FH rubber. Also the medium hard Moon 12 is a very good step up from the medium soft, pretty much better in every regard.
I did als play a brief game with my LP setup on my BTY blade. What I noticed is how much more spin I could create with the Bloom Power on that blade, being softer and a little less fast. It got my thinking I might transfer the Sanwei DZ to the N10s and stick a sheet of Moon 12 on my BTY blade.
I also got an Andro Treiber FI with Tibhar Grass D.Tecs OX incoming, on which I scored a good deal second hand, eager to try that out too.
I did als play a brief game with my LP setup on my BTY blade. What I noticed is how much more spin I could create with the Bloom Power on that blade, being softer and a little less fast. It got my thinking I might transfer the Sanwei DZ to the N10s and stick a sheet of Moon 12 on my BTY blade.
I also got an Andro Treiber FI with Tibhar Grass D.Tecs OX incoming, on which I scored a good deal second hand, eager to try that out too.
Just thought I would jump in here for a quick update now that my V14P + B3 40 + GA8 50 setup has properly broken in.
Backhand:
I am now very comfortable with the Gold Arc 8 50 and I know this is a weird thing to highlight, but it has this crisp, snappy click sound when you really punch it. This sound is so nice, it has become somewhat addictive to the point where I look for any excuse to snap my backhand—even against the most idiotic balls—just to hear it. And, as a testament to this rubbers overall quality, most of these end up on the table now! It's a bit ridiculous...
I will say, however, than once broken in, the 50 both softens and gains a lot of control (yet spin literally hasn't changed at all with use—it's as aggressive as when it was when new). The GA8 50 does retain the majority of its speed (but not all of it) after break in, and this is despite using a very fast blade that has more top-end extension than most people realise (it's right next to T11S), which you might think would cover any deficiencies. Not quite.
Therefore, given how the 50 hardness plays once broken in, I can't find a logical reason to recommend the 47.5 (though I've not used it, maybe it has magical properties). The softer variant might be useful for beginners, but it might have too much catapult when new, so even then, the 50 probably has better slow-speed control.
Overall, the GA8 50 has become a very precise, high-control solution for my backhand with very few of the sensitivities that it had when brand new and enough response to be lethal. Nice!
Forehand:
What can I say about the Battle 3 40? It just works, and does everything I ask of it.
Keep in mind, my bat get's cleaned the evening of any day that I play, such that even after 35 - 40 hours of use, I can still pickup the ball and throw it to the ceiling from tack alone. I would have expected this to have reduced.
However, durability is B3's least notable characteristic.
I was say the following 3 areas are my top 3.
Overall, this setup keeps getting better with more use, which is hard to believe. However, though I think it has plateaued now and so I am expecting the response to dampen a little in the coming months, albeit very slowly.
If I remember, I'll provide an update mid-year and we'll see if I was right.
Backhand:
I am now very comfortable with the Gold Arc 8 50 and I know this is a weird thing to highlight, but it has this crisp, snappy click sound when you really punch it. This sound is so nice, it has become somewhat addictive to the point where I look for any excuse to snap my backhand—even against the most idiotic balls—just to hear it. And, as a testament to this rubbers overall quality, most of these end up on the table now! It's a bit ridiculous...
I will say, however, than once broken in, the 50 both softens and gains a lot of control (yet spin literally hasn't changed at all with use—it's as aggressive as when it was when new). The GA8 50 does retain the majority of its speed (but not all of it) after break in, and this is despite using a very fast blade that has more top-end extension than most people realise (it's right next to T11S), which you might think would cover any deficiencies. Not quite.
Therefore, given how the 50 hardness plays once broken in, I can't find a logical reason to recommend the 47.5 (though I've not used it, maybe it has magical properties). The softer variant might be useful for beginners, but it might have too much catapult when new, so even then, the 50 probably has better slow-speed control.
Overall, the GA8 50 has become a very precise, high-control solution for my backhand with very few of the sensitivities that it had when brand new and enough response to be lethal. Nice!
Forehand:
What can I say about the Battle 3 40? It just works, and does everything I ask of it.
Keep in mind, my bat get's cleaned the evening of any day that I play, such that even after 35 - 40 hours of use, I can still pickup the ball and throw it to the ceiling from tack alone. I would have expected this to have reduced.
However, durability is B3's least notable characteristic.
I was say the following 3 areas are my top 3.
- Power-loop quality.
These are utterly disgusting now and just yesterday, for whatever reason, everything felt "just right", to the point where the guy I train with said they had so much more spin and speed, that my power-loops were "virtually unhittable, even when I know its coming".
Since I'm pretty lazy with my footwork, I usually have sideways momentum at contact when attacking wide forehand shots. The natural sidespin this bends into the shot not only makes them fade, but they kick off the table like they hit the edge... It's just ridiculous.
- Control.
Surprised this is second? You should be.
The mechanical engineer in me wants to over analyse and get very technical about these things, yet I honest don't understand what mechanics are allowing B3 to achieve this level of control. It has absolutely no right to play this consistently. Excellent linearity is obviously part of the equation, but I've no idea how a rubber with this much grip can play with so consistently.
If anyone can provide a technical explanation as to the physics involved, please let me know.
- Top-end extension.
Unlike control, this one is very obvious and won't surprise anyone, given I went with the hardest option.
However, once broken in, you get the benefits of a slow touch game, the mid-range advantages of 729's new sponge, and I can put as much effort into forehand drives as I want without any sensation that the response is rolling-off (which I was starting to get with the B3 39). I'm not sure if I've bottomed the sponge out during flat smashes yet, though, I've honestly not paid any attention to these shots. I guess that's good, as it means I've not felt anything odd, right?
Overall, this setup keeps getting better with more use, which is hard to believe. However, though I think it has plateaued now and so I am expecting the response to dampen a little in the coming months, albeit very slowly.
If I remember, I'll provide an update mid-year and we'll see if I was right.
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I love Battle 3, I really do, and I won't be going back to B2P anytime soon (and I really liked B2P BS 39).
I believe there is strong correlation between observation, and the claims made by 729 about the R&D invested into this rubber. Furthermore, now that I know the full story (several years delay to its release due to the pandemic, which also meant less funding to advertise), it's understandable why its performance isn't matched by its popularity.
Specifically, once broken in, the B3 40 (despite the +1 hardness) has better mid-range than the B2P blue sponge 39, while being slower (more controlled) for service and pushes (that's a good thing). However, like I mentioned in my previous post, the top-end extension feels beyond my ability, without resorting to a flat smash. Even then, I've not noticed any misbehaviour so I'm not actually sure if I'm bottoming out the sponge or not.
But it takes time to get the most out of Battle 3.
Don't get me wrong, I personally liked how it played brand new. New rubbers always have that nice, unique feeling for the first half hour of play. It's just that it gets significantly better once broken in.
On that note, I'm going to hypothesise and labour the breaking in aspect of Battle 3 for a minute.
My excuse... sorry, I meant, the reason for doing so is that I think it's an important data point for anyone thinking about buying it, including why I think the price is justified, and worth the effort/time (the reality is that I just wanted to type out my thoughts on the matter. So I did).
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The below is a technical tangent based on experience, not specific research.
Stop reading if you don't like such tangents.
TL;DR
In my opinion, there are (potentially) sound mechanical reasons behind why B3 takes longer to break in, which could also significantly improve its durability vs. a typical sponge structure (all else being equal).
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Objectively, B3 takes longer to break in than B2P or B2P BS (and Gold Arc 8 50, for that matter). As such, I sincerely believe that you cannot honestly judge B3 within the first few hours of hard play. Anyone providing a review of Battle 3 after one session is misleading you (it may not be intentional, but its misleading nonetheless).
But why?
My guess: 729's new sponge-forming technology.
Apparently, this method results in an even distribution of two distinct groups of pore sizes (bubbles, essentially) throughout the sponge, such that larger pores are surrounded by a regular number of smaller ones. It's not exactly analogous, but it seems quite similar to the way smaller atoms fill the interstitial voids of an alloy. The benefits of this are numerous, and also apply at multiple levels (from atomic to macroscopic), such that the same general principles/benefits pop up in many areas of engineering that involve the mechanics of solids and/or structures.
This structure should distribute point loads more effectively, such that peak internal stresses within the material itself are significantly lowered. If true, this would necessarily require more load cycling (and higher peak loads) to "break in" the sponge.
Therefore, taking longer to break-in—though it might be an unintentional, but happy by-product—is an inherent property of this sponges mechanical structure compared with random porosity or fixed size porosity, all else being equal.
What is break in, exactly?
Well, I don't know, exactly, as I've never looked into it, but my gut feeling is that it's not the same as the fatigue-related failure mode, which all rubbers undergo, as they wear out from intentional use. It probably has more to do with the release of uneven internal stresses, or other anomalies, within the structure (via plastic deformation or fracture). Ideally, the sponge should have homogenous mechanical properties throughout, such that the relief of uneven/unintentional internal stress is not required (or possible), however, that is never the case, and so break in occurs.
But again, this is all from my own rationalisation based on experience with other materials, combined with a lot of observational evidence from the modern TT community. I've no actual evidence to support any of this.
So if you read this far and don't know why, don't say I didn't warn you.
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I'm gonna start my own thread to speak about my experience, but as a disclaimer, Stuor Long 5 + Big Dipper or Stuor Nobilis + Jupiter 3 are what I needed. I'm really enjoying those setups, and one of these will be my racket for the rest of the year.
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No, not really, B2 has more spin when serving, It’s been a while since I played with B2!
personally I would choose Any of the B2 variants over B3.
I noticed that B3 has noticeably less spin when serving compared to LAC and Winning G wave 120. So I removed the B3 and stuck on the G wave 120. What with the Easter break and schools half term, I haven’t played for a couple of weeks, only been able to practice serves, so I don’t know how the G wave will stack up against B3 for looping and in match play.
My gut feeling is that G wave 120 will be a little slower than B3 (I boosted the G wave). If B3 was boosted then it’s performance may get better regarding speed, not so sure if spin capability would increase.
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How long did you use the B3 for? Ive heard it takes longer than usual for it to break in.
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Battle 3 on a harder/stiffer blade will make it easier to play as well.
On a softer, limba type of blade it is more difficult to activate and get more out of it.
Although the quality will be better, the amount of effort it takes to produce that quality is not proportional to that of a harder Koto Outer Alc type blade.
In General, I find hard Chinese rubbers significantly easier to activate and get good quality shots out of on Koto Outer Alc type blades.
Same goes for LAC, H8-80 and some others.
That could be a reason for different experiences with the Battle 3.
Blade contributes a lot.
On a softer, limba type of blade it is more difficult to activate and get more out of it.
Although the quality will be better, the amount of effort it takes to produce that quality is not proportional to that of a harder Koto Outer Alc type blade.
In General, I find hard Chinese rubbers significantly easier to activate and get good quality shots out of on Koto Outer Alc type blades.
Same goes for LAC, H8-80 and some others.
That could be a reason for different experiences with the Battle 3.
Blade contributes a lot.
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I went through some "table" exercise, literally, twice... So I made some setups, played a little, measured a little, to keep -sanity... The hardness measurements are done with Type O durometer. Obviously it can't be really precise when done manually, it's more of a correlation... Later I want to write a bit about some of those rubbers...
| Blade | who | naked | weight | frequency | rubber | FH | BH |
| Viscaria | mine | 88g | 193g | 1450Hz cca | new | DFVP H40 | Big Dipper H38 |
| Vodak Horejsi ALC | mine | 89g | 190g | 1290Hz cca | old | Rxton 9 H40.5 | Vega X 2.0 |
| Vodak Horejsi APC | friend | 88g | 181g | 1320Hz | old | B2 Nat BS H38 | Fastarc C1 2.0 |
| Vodak Horejsi APC | friend | 88g | 185g | 1320Hz | new | Xiom J&H Z 52.5 | Vega Pro 2.0 |
| XVT Hinoki Carbon | friend | 84g | 182g | 1480Hz | new | Battle 3 H39 | Vega Europe 2.0 |
| Rubber | Side/Color | State | Sponge hardness | Top-sheet hardness |
| DFVP H40 | FH/black | new | 53 | 52 |
| Rxton 9 H40.5 | FH/black | used | 53 | 48-49 |
| Battle 2 nat H39 | FH/black | new | 52 | 50 |
| Battle 3 H39 | FH/black | new | 51-52 | 52 |
| Battle 2 Nat BS H38 | FH/black | used | 47-48 | 48 |
| J&H Z 52.5 | FH/black | new | 49 | 50 |
| H3 prov. BS H41 | FH/black | used | 49 | 48 |
| BD H38 | BH/red | new | 49 | 49-50 |
| Vega X 2.0 | BH/red | used | 46 | 48 |
| Vega Pro 2.0 | BH/red | new | 45 | 47 |
| Vega Europe 2.0 | BH/red | new | 39 | 40-41 |
| Fastarc C1 2.0 | BH/red | used | 43 | 45 |
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