Qatar Open 2018

[NextLevel]

Yep, yep ... true.
Actually I was thinking about creating a thread, that top European players should practice together on a regular basis. China does it all the time and Europe is behind on that matter. How are we going to challenge those dominant players if we don't work together?

What makes you think they don't or that if they do it will make a huge difference? Just looking at the constitution of clubs in Europe tells a different story.

 

[darucla]

Certainly European players gain experience in various leagues, and some have benefited greatly by the experience. Obvious examples are Liam Pitchford, named MVP in the UTT in India, and Bernadette Szocs, overall female winner at T2. But neither of these guaranteed regular match-play against the top Chinese, who are still the gold standard. (Apart from the senior events, China won both U21 events as well, no Chinese player losing to any other country.*) So, coming into such high level competition at events like Qatar is still likely to come as a shock.

*OK, only 4 women and one man from China. But still.

 

[ttmonster]

Samsonov has been telling this for along time , but other than players who happen to play in the same club it does not happen yet.

Yep, yep ... true.
Actually I was thinking about creating a thread, that top European players should practice together on a regular basis. China does it all the time and Europe is behind on that matter. How are we going to challenge those dominant players if we don't work together?

 

[NextLevel]

Samsonov has been telling this for along time , but other than players who happen to play in the same club it does not happen yet.

But that is the point - what do you expect to happen beyond players in the same club getting together or training camps at the old Schlager Academy?

The real problem is not the lack of the players getting together, it is that there aren't 20 Hugo Calderanos out there. Most of the top players/countries hire training partners from China. When Christian Suss retired, Dima was complaining about the loss of another powerful looper.

The other issue is that China is one country - no one should pretend that the Europeans are not competing against each other. That is why one should appreciate what the clubs are able to do and not sniff at it. Dima and Mizutani getting to practice against each other on a regular enough basis is something that they both cannot trivialize.

 

[jawien]

[...] no one should pretend that the Europeans are not competing against each other. That is why one should appreciate what the clubs are able to do and not sniff at it. Dima and Mizutani [...]

Well you see this is the problem, at the moment a European player mindset, specially in big competitions, is to try to compete only against other European players and if there is a lost against a Chinese player, one feels excused - because it was "a Chinese player".

Right now China is like a Roman Empire ruling over those smaller dispersed barbarian tribes.

CNT players participate in the SL matches and every one of them plays almost in a different club.
Before every major event there is like a few weeks long a closed training camp.
There are only the best players from all over China gathered in one place.
Players representing different playing styles are all available for practice.
Special sparing partners trying to imitate European players (serves, typical play) are available.
Most dangerous players are analysed by a team of coaches.
Every main player has a dedicated coach.

Now what I was thinking about (I don't know Vladi's proposal) was to have, more or less regular camps for 25 best players in Europe, specially before big events. Importantly, one of the topics during such gatherings, should be how to efficiently compete against the style represented by the Chinese and other Asia countries players.

There is no other way, if you want to beat CNT you have to practice with this goal in mind. Why be afraid to do it? Waldner and Persson did it in the 80/90ties ...

Even people from China on this forum will say I'm right here - right? ; )

 

[NextLevel]

Well you see this is the problem, at the moment a European player mindset, specially in big competitions, is to try to compete only against other European players and if there is a lost against a Chinese player, one feels excused - because it was "a Chinese player".

I don't see this at all. In fact, may top clubs in Europe bring in Chinese players to give their players exposure and to help their rankings. If China didn't do such a good job of keeping its prime talent and the ITTF didn't have regulations that prevented people from playing the main ITTF events after changing nationality as adults, there would be more Chinese players in Europe.

To say that it can be mitigated just by the clubs organisation and the famous Dima - Mizutani training partnership - completely misses the point.

How does it miss the point? Because you want to sound smart?

Right now China is like a Roman Empire ruling over those smaller dispersed barbarian tribes.

CNT players participate in the SL matches and every one of them plays almost in a different club.
Before every major event there is like a few weeks long a closed training camp.
There are only the best players from all over China gathered in one place.
Players representing different playing styles are all available for practice.
Special sparing partners trying to imitate European players (serves, typical play) are available.
Most dangerous players are analysed by a team of coaches.
Every main player has a dedicated coach.

Now what I was thinking about (I don't know Vladi's proposal) was to have, more or less regular camps for 25 best players in Europe, specially before big events. Importantly, one of the topics during such gatherings, should be how to efficiently compete against the style represented by the Chinese and other Asia countries players.

There is no other way, if you want to beat CNT you have to practice with this goal in mind. Why be afraid to do it? Waldner and Persson did it in the 80/90ties ...

Even people from China on this forum will say I'm right here - right? ; )

There is no point in acting as if there isn't a huge difference between one country organizing its resources vs. many countries doing so. It is not as if the incentives are in place for Europe to succeed as a continent vs. the individuals.

But even with that, the club systems are doing a fantastic job that you can only close your eyes to if you want to close your eyes. Calderano and Gauzy are on the same Bundesliga team and have done a lot of work with the same coach. My point is not that you can't get something better, but that you have to be careful to think that there is nothing happening at all.

Here is one example of the kind of thing that one would never have imagined if one doesn't know about it.

http://butterflyonline.com/tag-mate-win-timo-boll/

 

[Andy44]

True, it's hard to imagine the top multi-national players forming some kind of world team vs CNT, but if I were Hugo Calderano I'd do everything I could to put myself in a situation as close to that as possible. Maybe something like a Bundesliga all-star team that practices together and challenges a Super League all-star team every year.

 

[NextLevel]

True, it's hard to imagine the top multi-national players forming some kind of world team vs CNT, but if I were Hugo Calderano I'd do everything I could to put myself in a situation as close to that as possible. Maybe something like a Bundesliga all-star team that practices together and challenges a Super League all-star team every year.

Calderano is already in a great situation. It's just not as good as playing Ma Long so often that you get to figure out where you are and works and doesn't work against you vs. someone who can implement it at the highest level. The only thing I could see for someone like him is playing T2APAC as Superleague is no longer an option even if he wanted to risk exposing his weaknesses to the CNT for closer study.

 

[Andy44]

Calderano is already in a great situation. It's just not as good as playing Ma Long so often that you get to figure out where you are and works and doesn't work against you vs. someone who can implement it at the highest level. The only thing I could see for someone like him is playing T2APAC as Superleague is no longer an option even if he wanted to risk exposing his weaknesses to the CNT for closer study.

He can't practice with Ma Long and FZD, but Boll and Ovtcharov wouldn't be too bad. T2APAC would help also, but ideally he needs to be pushed on a daily basis by the best players in Europe. Samsonov's right. They'd all get better and narrow the gap on CNT if they did that, but easier said than done.

 

[NextLevel]

He can't practice with Ma Long and FZD, but Boll and Ovtcharov wouldn't be too bad. T2APAC would help also, but ideally he needs to be pushed on a daily basis by the best players in Europe. Samsonov's right. They'd all get better and narrow the gap on CNT if they did that, but easier said than done.

I agree that Boll and Dima would be better but he isn't on the German national team.

His current Bundesliga team has Gauzy. Dyjas and Muromatsu. He is already competing against Boll, Karlsson, Fegerl, Filus etc. On a regular basis. I think the whole collaboration idea sounds great on paper but people are missing the point when it comes to the CNT. The CNT was originally first and foremost a pyramid system. In an Euro collaboration, who wants to be at the bottom of the pyramid? In most national teams the main players are clear and so are the feeders.

The other part is to realize that the best players are around each other in many if those leagues today. Just trying to make sure that people don't think that many of these things aren't happening in some form already.

With Harimoto, people ask the same question. Are you going to continue to improve at the same rate when you are not training with CNT level players on a daily basis? It's not a closed question by the way and Samsonov suggested something that I think is a nice ideal but doesn't seriously take into account the realities of the sport.

 

[zeio]

FZD found himself in a deep hole because he kept going for Calderano's backhand in those 2 games, where the latter was ready for it. I guess that was Mounie's plan, and it worked, for the most part. What didn't go as planned was probably the lopsided score. They didn't prepare for that. If Calderano could be more confident in using the chiquita for those forehand shorts, which won him many points, we could see a different outcome. One thing is for sure, he needs to work on his forehand flick. He needs to flick kill those loose balls to his forehand short.

FZD said after the match:

赛后，樊振东表示：“雨果的反手实力很强，我必须很好的变换球路。前两局我打的很被动和谨慎，但是赢下第二局后我就打得很积极了！”

(Hugo's BH was really strong, I had to switch up the shots. I played very passive and safe in the 1st 2 games, but I played more aggressive after taking the 2nd game.)

WJPs comments:

吴敬平表示：“从这次比赛看雨果确实打得不错，技术很有特点。虽然不知道他的教练是谁，但从他掌握的技术来看，一定有中国教练给他指导过。台内球比较好，能摆能挑，正反手进攻有两条直线的意识，这是典型的中国特色。如果没有中国教练教他，那么这个外国教练就非常有水平了。再一个就是雨果的反手很强硬，特别是接发球的台内拧拉，质量非常高，很像当年小胖出道时小胖拧拉的出手和质量。正反手都具备很强的进攻能力，这是典型的欧洲打法。”
他认为卡尔德拉诺，未来会成为中国队的主要对手之一，他分析道：“雨果也将是中国队的主要对手之一，能4-1赢波尔，4-0赢林高远说明了他的实力，这不是那么容易做到的。至于4-0赢张本智和这属于正常，目前很多运动员都能赢他。虽然雨果技术比较全面，但漏洞也非常明显，在遇到困难的时候，摆脱困境的能力也有待提高。”

(Hugo played well, with his unique technique. From his game, he should've had Chinese coaching before. His short game is decent, as he can drop short and flick. His FH and BH attacks have the two-straight mindset, which is a typical Chinese trait. If he never had a Chinese coach, then that foreign coach has gotta be really good. Even more, his BH is very strong, especially his high-quality chiquita receive, which is very much like that of FZD in his early days. He is capable of strong attacks on both wings. That is typical European style.

He thinks Calderano will be a mainstay opponent for the CNT. Beating Boll 4:1 and LGY 4:0 were no small feats, which proved his worth. But beating Harimoto 4 zip was normal, as many players are capable of beating him. Even though Hugo's technique is rather comprehensive, his flaw is also apparent. He still has to work on his ability to get out of a pinch.)

 

[NextLevel]

FZD said after the match:

(Hugo's BH was really strong, I had to switch up the shots. I played very passive and safe in the 1st 2 games, but I played more aggressive after taking the 2nd game.)

WJPs comments:

(Hugo played well, with his unique technique. From his game, he should've had Chinese coaching before. His short game is decent, as he can drop short and flick. His FH and BH attacks have the two-straight mindset, which is a typical Chinese trait. If he never had a Chinese coach, then that foreign coach has gotta be really good. Even more, his BH is very strong, especially his high-quality chiquita receive, which is very much like that of FZD in his early days. He is capable of strong attacks on both wings. That is typical European style.

He thinks Calderano will be a mainstay opponent for the CNT. Beating Boll 4:1 and LGY 4:0 were no small feats, which proved his worth. But beating Harimoto 4 zip was normal, as many players are capable of beating him. Even though Hugo's technique is rather comprehensive, his flaw is also apparent. He still has to work on his ability to get out of a pinch.)

You discussed the forehand flick but do you agree he needs more serve variations?

 

[zeio]

Service-wise, I think he should try the reverse pendulum, and some low toss spin/no spin, to serve as a failsafe and create an opening for a 3rd ball winner. Keep the pattern really simple, but the objective really clear. When it gets tight, it often comes down to a point or two, just as we witnessed FZD forcing a 3rd ball winner on the last point of the 1st game. Calderano needs that killer instinct. Either you or me.

 

[Garrison]

A lot of players, many not part of the national team do train in Düsseldorf TT centre, but it's usually not europe's elite clamped together.

While this does make the CNT quite strong, I think a big factor in why Liang Jingkun struggled on international soil is because the chinese players play so similar to each other.

 

[rainneverever]

If I remember correctly, Hong Kong and Korea went to some European training camp in preparation for 2017 WTTC. The collaborations between associations have already started.


A CNT player may have chance to train daily with the core CNT players like ML/FZD/XX as a practice partner, and beat his core player once or two times in national tournaments and CTTSL. However, it is the constant performance against other CNT players and non-CNT players who he is less familiar with, to give him the position in the team, and if he becomes 4th and 5th, he no longer has the chance to practice daily with ML/FZD/XX (The core players do NOT practice with each other in daily training or closed training. They only do so in tournaments when practice partners are not around). What level he can reach depends on his talents, foundations, hardworking, coaching, mentality and luck of course. The goal should not be to beat certain players but to beat most players and get good results in tournaments. It also applies to top players like FZD. You can check out FZD's recent interview with TTWorld which explained his under-performance after 2017 China National Games. He got trapped in his several losses to ML in 2017. He thought he has only one rival and did not get full preparation for others. That's why he lost in German Open and Swedish Open.
http://www.sohu.com/a/221494024_580074
The problem has been pointed by LGL as well: don't stick to ML, look at the whole world.
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/nd/2017-12-30/doc-ifyqcwaq6124723.shtml




Similarly, the goal of a promising non-CNT player should not be to beat certain CNT players, but to beat most players (non-CNT especially) who he faces. Beating CNT players, especially ML/FZD/XX, boosts self-confidence, but there are just more rivals with different styles on the way to the champion. Timo beat ML in 2017 WC but he was not the one who lifted the WC trophy. JM beat XX in 2016 OG and he did not have a chance to meet XX again after losing to Tomo in 2017 WTTC. The current goal of Hugo Calderano should not be to find a way to revenge FZD but to make sure he can beat the players like Liam Pitchford, and Timo, Tomo, LGY, constantly.

 

[jawien]

True, it's hard to imagine the top multi-national players forming some kind of world team vs CNT, but if I were Hugo Calderano I'd do everything I could to put myself in a situation as close to that as possible.
[...]
but ideally he needs to be pushed on a daily basis by the best players in Europe. Samsonov's right. They'd all get better and narrow the gap on CNT if they did that, but easier said than done.

I don't know how Andy ... but if there will be no cooperation, common training camps, European tt will have no chance. There is to much asymmetry going on here. Considering sheer number of players ... a single country - no chance ... not even the strongest ones in Europe - in my opinion.

I agree that Boll and Dima would be better but he isn't on the German national team.
His current Bundesliga team has Gauzy. Dyjas and Muromatsu. He is already competing against Boll, Karlsson, Fegerl, Filus etc.

NextLevel, with all due respect, a single club will never have, even remotely, as much resources or organisational capabilities as something like a EU project.

The CNT was originally first and foremost a pyramid system. In an Euro collaboration, who wants to be at the bottom of the pyramid? In most national teams the main players are clear and so are the feeders.

I don't know how to organize this Pyramid. But we have people working in sports, right ? : )

 

[rainneverever]

In terms of getting high-level practice partners, there are always solutions. Some JNT players hire retired CNT players as practice partners; CNT practice partners get incentives when their core players won prize money.

In CNT closed training for major events (OG, WTTC, WTTTC, Asian Games), one core player usually faces two practice partners at the same time. They don't have to be elite players to give the core player a hard time.

 

[jawien]

A lot of players, many not part of the national team do train in Düsseldorf TT centre, but it's usually not europe's elite clamped together..

And this is not right IMHO. Without a common practice, with a specific goal in mind, we will not get anywhere.

The current goal of Hugo Calderano should not be to find a way to revenge FZD but to make sure he can beat the players like Liam Pitchford, and Timo, Tomo, LGY, constantly.

Of course Rainneverever, but sometimes CNT unites and practices together and I think we should learn from you also in this aspect.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't know how Andy ... but if there will be no cooperation, common training camps, European tt will have no chance. There is to much asymmetry going on here. Considering sheer number of players ... a single country - no chance ... not even the strongest ones in Europe - in my opinion.



NextLevel, with all due respect, a single club will never have, even remotely, as much resources or organisational capabilities as something like a EU project.



I don't know how to organize this Pyramid. But we have people working in sports, right ? : )

Read raineverever's posts. You still seem to miss the point.

 

[jawien]

Read raineverever's posts. You still seem to miss the point.

Sometimes I miss the point too. Oh come on NextLevel, don't be so sensitive about me writing this.. ; )

What would you say is most important in Raineverever's posts?