Rebulding Fundamental strokes for my game play

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I think what is meant by "stroke mechanics" is efficiency. You can manipulate the ball in order to do more or less what you want and that is the "touch" but you are wasting time and energy doing it. It's the overall economy of motion which requires balance and good footwork.

Here is an example- Bojan has touch and some efficiency relative to amateurs but compared to ML he wastes a ton of energy, especially the way his left arm flails around. That extra motion throws off his balance and makes his strokes inconsistent. This means the more energy going managing his body than the less goes into the quality of the shot.

Off topic analogy-

It's like the difference between a ICE car and an electric car. An ICE only converts about ~30% of the energy generated from the combustion process into forward motion, the rest is wasted as heat vibration and noise. An electric motor has one moving part and converts ~90% of of the electrical energy into forward motion.

Very well explained, Players like Sharath Kamal, Quadri Aruna have similar problems. Once, the balance is lost, it gets worse with each stroke in the rally till the player who lost balance also loses the point.

Balance, economy and efficiency separates the 99.99% from the 0.01%

That's where all those hard years of training works the magic.

 

[Archosaurus]

That being said, don't try to strive to be 100% as mechanically efficient as possible if it distracts you from the important aspects. Many great players have not been exactly perfect mechanically, and as an amateur, it's unlikely you will ever really utilize your body like the pros do.

Just remove unnecessary elements and add in useful elements, is what I think. I think you will go mad trying to strive for perfection.

 

[V-Griper]

Very well explained, Players like Sharath Kamal, Quadri Aruna have similar problems. Once, the balance is lost, it gets worse with each stroke in the rally till the player who lost balance also loses the point.

Balance, economy and efficiency separates the 99.99% from the 0.01%


That's where all those hard years of training works the magic.

Exactly!

In the immortal words of EPMD "to relax and be smooth is the main ingredient"

So when you are trying to find ways to improve your strokes the main question you should be asking yourself is how can I improve the efficiency of my shots. Note that does not mean no effort just not wasting the effort you put forth.

 

[V-Griper]

This actually reminds me of something my old Tai Chi instructor used say which was "lose your balance lose the fight"

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

This actually reminds me of something my old Tai Chi instructor used say which was "lose your balance lose the fight"

Cool stuff, Nowadays I read some Tai Chi Chuang. You can't attack the void is my favourite.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I have a beautiful illustration from my own game which took place day before yesterday, where I got choked in my own game strategy. I finish most points in third ball and sometimes this happen as shown below. I became complacent to get into position before attacking with backhand, due to loss of balance after the stroke which pushed my body forward, I couldn't recover back to return that ball.

Same with the second serve as well, if my opponent returned it, there is no way to come back for that.

 

[V-Griper]

Cool stuff, Nowadays I read some Tai Chi Chuang. You can't attack the void is my favourite.

I hate to say it but most of that stuff is just new age gibberish at this point.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Can someone enlighten me where 'touch' ends (same for 'ability to spin') and 'stroke mechanics' begins? Not trying to start the fight, just interested in terminology here.

If you saw his stroke mechanics in the first video of him hitting the difference between touch and stroke mechanics may be VERY clear. The first video that Siva posted which showed him hitting, he was being fed "multiball". He was putting a lot of spin on the ball. But with every shot, in his followthrough, Siva's racket ended up about 8 inches to the left of his left shoulder and about the height of his chest (lower than his shoulder) with his elbow higher than his racket.

The stroke mechanics were not only inefficient, they are on the dangerous side for his shoulder. He still had excellent spin because he knows how to touch the ball very well. But the strokes were quite bad and would not only cause damage to his shoulder because of the torc of raising the elbow and dropping the racket, they also drastically limited his potential power because of just how inefficient the stroke was.

I am on a subway, but when I can post his video next to that Samson Dubina video, I will.

So, yes, you can have bad mechanics and still get good spin by having good touch.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

I hate to say it but most of that stuff is just new age gibberish at this point.

Sorry I got the words wrong. Tao Te Ching was the book, it is the seminal work in Taoism.

A short explanation for not attacking the void could be

There is no offense without defense. Not to be taken by semantics but could be applied abstractly.

 

[Archosaurus]

How anyone who studies taoism could confuse the piece Tao Te Ching for Taijiquan is beyond me.

You surprise me for the second time today, Siva.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

How anyone who studies taoism could confuse the piece Tao Te Ching for Taijiquan is beyond me.

You surprise me for the second time today, Siva.

LOL,
Although I twiddled with those words, there is a interesting connection between them. Tao can be abstrusely taken as way and Taichiquan can be taken as martial art again in a superficial manner.

So, there is the term Tao of TaichiQuan which just means martial way of life.

 

[NextLevel]

I think what is meant by "stroke mechanics" is efficiency. You can manipulate the ball in order to do more or less what you want and that is the "touch" but you are wasting time and energy doing it. It's the overall economy of motion which requires balance and good footwork.

Here is an example- Bojan has touch and some efficiency relative to amateurs but compared to ML he wastes a ton of energy, especially the way his left arm flails around. That extra motion throws off his balance and makes his strokes inconsistent. This means the more energy going managing his body than the less goes into the quality of the shot.

Off topic analogy-

It's like the difference between a ICE car and an electric car. An ICE only converts about ~30% of the energy generated from the combustion process into forward motion, the rest is wasted as heat vibration and noise. An electric motor has one moving part and converts ~90% of of the electrical energy into forward motion.

The concept is perfect but the Bojan Tokic criticism makes me shake my head... let's just say that if people listened to you, they would think that only China knows how to play table tennis.

 

[NextLevel]

Can someone enlighten me where 'touch' ends (same for 'ability to spin') and 'stroke mechanics' begins? Not trying to start the fight, just interested in terminology here.

Touch refers to ball feeling, or the ability to read the spin and pace on the ball and manipulate it to place it where you want to. People with good touch tend to have good hands for manipulating grip pressure and good spin reading skills.

Ability to spin is largely about racket head speed and brush contact. Some people do this by muscling the ball but this is limited. Most people with high levels of spin know how to get good whip motions with their forearm and wrist at the very least and may be able to add to this with other parts of the body, especially the core.

Stroke mechanics are about how you play your strokes. While stroke mechanics do account for touch and racket head speed etc., they are also about building things like ball consistency or the ability to handle balls when you are not 100% precise in our prediction of where the ball will be.

An example when forehand looping is a stroke that continually comes across the body. The problem with a stroke like this is that it relies upon the ball to be at the appropriate point in the stroke path. If your stroke is going towards the ball and towards the table, then it is more likely to hit the ball towards the table. If your stroke repeatedly and consistently comes across the body, then when the ball doesn't show up exactly where you expect it, it is likely to hook the ball to the side of the table. Also strokes that come across the body then to have pretty closed racket angles compared to those that go towards the table and into the ball. Small things like this influence stroke mechanics and make some strokes trickier to use consistently against ball than others, even when the users of both strokes are of similar talent/skill levels. So building good technique into your stroke mechanics, as Siva is doing, is often rewarded by increased consistency against certain kinds of balls.

 

[NextLevel]

I have a beautiful illustration from my own game which took place day before yesterday, where I got choked in my own game strategy. I finish most points in third ball and sometimes this happen as shown below. I became complacent to get into position before attacking with backhand, due to loss of balance after the stroke which pushed my body forward, I couldn't recover back to return that ball.

Same with the second serve as well, if my opponent returned it, there is no way to come back for that.

Yes, but this is why you can't speak about why stroke mechanics are better without talking about what the stroke is designed to do. What you are doing is standard for a kill stroke. But we are trying to teach you standard rally strokes. OVer time, they may influence the consistency and technique of your kill strokes or at least, the strokes you use when the kill opportunities are not as easy as the ones you have in the video here. IF you continue on your current path, your stroke will be able to handle trickier balls and will have much less risk built into them.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Can someone enlighten me where 'touch' ends (same for 'ability to spin') and 'stroke mechanics' begins? Not trying to start the fight, just interested in terminology here.

If you saw his stroke mechanics in the first video of him hitting the difference between touch and stroke mechanics may be VERY clear. The first video that Siva posted which showed him hitting, he was being fed "multiball". He was putting a lot of spin on the ball. But with every shot, in his followthrough, Siva's racket ended up about 8 inches to the left of his left shoulder and about the height of his chest (lower than his shoulder) with his elbow higher than his racket.

The stroke mechanics were not only inefficient, they are on the dangerous side for his shoulder. He still had excellent spin because he knows how to touch the ball very well. But the strokes were quite bad and would not only cause damage to his shoulder because of the torc of raising the elbow and dropping the racket, they also drastically limited his potential power because of just how inefficient the stroke was.

I am on a subway, but when I can post his video next to that Samson Dubina video, I will.

So, yes, you can have bad mechanics and still get good spin by having good touch.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Here is Sean O'Neill showing an idea of good mechanics for a stroke:

In it he shows that thing with the elbow lifting, the racket going past the shoulder, and the racket ending lower than the elbow. NextLevel posted this a few times before. It is a good video.

Here is Siva's old stroke that he is working to change; Siva's FH practice starts at about 1:44.

Notice how well he brushes and how he gets pretty darn good spin despite bad stroke mechanics in this video. His stroke has definitely gotten a lot better. But his elbow does still come up like that sometimes.

 

[Der_Echte]

Touch refers to ball feeling, or the ability to read the spin and pace on the ball and manipulate it to place it where you want to. People with good touch tend to have good hands for manipulating grip pressure and good spin reading skills.

Ability to spin is largely about racket head speed and brush contact. Some people do this by muscling the ball but this is limited. Most people with high levels of spin know how to get good whip motions with their forearm and wrist at the very least and may be able to add to this with other parts of the body, especially the core.

Stroke mechanics are about how you play your strokes. While stroke mechanics do account for touch and racket head speed etc., they are also about building things like ball consistency or the ability to handle balls when you are not 100% precise in our prediction of where the ball will be.

An example when forehand looping is a stroke that continually comes across the body. The problem with a stroke like this is that it relies upon the ball to be at the appropriate point in the stroke path. If your stroke is going towards the ball and towards the table, then it is more likely to hit the ball towards the table. If your stroke repeatedly and consistently comes across the body, then when the ball doesn't show up exactly where you expect it, it is likely to hook the ball to the side of the table. Also strokes that come across the body then to have pretty closed racket angles compared to those that go towards the table and into the ball. Small things like this influence stroke mechanics and make some strokes trickier to use consistently against ball than others, even when the users of both strokes are of similar talent/skill levels. So building good technique into your stroke mechanics, as Siva is doing, is often rewarded by increased consistency against certain kinds of balls.

I would say excellent description of touch and add that touch is ability to control hand pressure at and during impact, this gives more dwell and control over a less solid struck ball with less force, but there still can be touch in a power shot.

Mechanics relate to how well one can initiate kinetic energy and transfer it to the ball. That applies to all levels of power, often we think of shots with 70% power, but mechanics are present in all levels of power.

I agree, one can have poor mechanics that have poor efficiency and get some OK spin if there touch is there and if one can salvage some of the lost lost whip at the end unconventionally. The "Easy Power" coach Hodges always refers to is efficient mechanics, but touch is involved in solid struck balls too. I produce my spin in the manner NL suggests, using legs/core to initiate kinetic energy, then use other parts of body independently in sequence to make my version of my whip.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I have a beautiful illustration from my own game which took place day before yesterday, where I got choked in my own game strategy. I finish most points in third ball and sometimes this happen as shown below. I became complacent to get into position before attacking with backhand, due to loss of balance after the stroke which pushed my body forward, I couldn't recover back to return that ball.

Same with the second serve as well, if my opponent returned it, there is no way to come back for that.

Siva, this isn't exactly because of loss of balance. It is because you are not reset, you are not expecting the ball to come back and you don't do anything after the stroke except stand there watching your shot. When your friend hits the ball you are standing upright with your arms almost by your sides. You don't even realize that the ball might land until it is about to land, at which time you start running towards the ball. And the next 3rd ball attack shot in the video, the FH shot, you also never recover from your followthrough. Against a player with decent rally skills, that "kill shot" is also going to come back. But it will come back with a high quality shot. And you are totally not prepared for the ball to come back in that shot either.

So this is not because of the mechanics of your stroke. It is because you have absolutely no reset.

 

[NextLevel]

I would say excellent description of touch and add that touch is ability to control hand pressure at and during impact, this gives more dwell and control over a less solid struck ball with less force, but there still can be touch in a power shot.

Mechanics relate to how well one can initiate kinetic energy and transfer it to the ball. That applies to all levels of power, often we think of shots with 70% power, but mechanics are present in all levels of power.

I agree, one can have poor mechanics that have poor efficiency and get some OK spin if there touch is there and if one can salvage some of the lost lost whip at the end unconventionally. The "Easy Power" coach Hodges always refers to is efficient mechanics, but touch is involved in solid struck balls too. I produce my spin in the manner NL suggests, using legs/core to initiate kinetic energy, then use other parts of body independently in sequence to make my version of my whip.

I combined stroke mechanics and technique. If we distinguish them, then you are closer to the main point than I am.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Siva, this isn't exactly because of loss of balance. It is because you are not reset, you are not expecting the ball to come back and you don't do anything after the stroke except stand there watching your shot. When your friend hits the ball you are standing upright with your arms almost by your sides. You don't even realize that the ball might land until it is about to land, at which time you start running towards the ball. And the next 3rd ball attack shot in the video, the FH shot, you also never recover from your followthrough. Against a player with decent rally skills, that "kill shot" is also going to come back. But it will come back with a high quality shot. And you are totally not prepared for the ball to come back in that shot either.

So this is not because of the mechanics of your stroke. It is because you have absolutely no reset.

Yeah, Ability to reset is a crucial factor nah. Need to work on that. I just took a look at the second one. Ew, my forehand almost reaches the shoulder there. I don't know, maybe it takes as many hours of service as it does for such reprogramming. Since there is no time to deliberately think on such strokes, there comes the additional difficulty for correction.

 

[Siva Schopenhauer]

Yes, but this is why you can't speak about why stroke mechanics are better without talking about what the stroke is designed to do. What you are doing is standard for a kill stroke. But we are trying to teach you standard rally strokes. OVer time, they may influence the consistency and technique of your kill strokes or at least, the strokes you use when the kill opportunities are not as easy as the ones you have in the video here. IF you continue on your current path, your stroke will be able to handle trickier balls and will have much less risk built into them.

I thought kill stroke is same as a normal stroke but with much more time in milliseconds and some more power on them