WTT Champions Chongqing 2024

[FIXPOINT]

 

[Emin]

Dang Qiu for Olympics!

Felix, time to retire!

Qiu goes down 0-2, takes a timeout and turns it around 3-2.

 

[Tempest/Comet]

Fatigue all over her demeanour, unfocused, the resilience and bounce disappeared, the relentless travel and play are taking their toll on limited stamina. This is the 2nd time I’ve seen Hayata having to sit down between games in as many tournaments. In her current form(and Hirano’s), Paris would at best be a beau geste, nothing more.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

too many tournaments for the Japanese players. they should recharge before OG

 

[zeio]

MS QF
F. Lebrun 2-3 QD (6, 3, -5, -10, -5)

Same verdict after WTT CS Chongqing 2024. BTW, Felix is roughly equal to/slightly ahead of QD in MT in the World after WTTC 2024.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/19th-asian-games-hangzhou.31953/post-425870

After European Games 2023 and ETTC 2023, Felix is roughly equal to Qiu Dang in MS and definitely higher in MT in Europe, but still slightly trails in MS in the World.

 

[zeio]

Zagreb, Ljubljana, Bangkok - Chinese women not declared...
Give the rest of the world a chance to raise their ratings?
The Chinese women are absolutely confident in their positions....

Hayata, Hirano, Ito, Miwa Harimoto - the results of games with Chinese players in recent tournaments are practically no different, in my opinion...

CNT will enter the month-long closed training session. Top 2 WS seeds secured by a wide margin.

Hirano in that poor form beat Shi Xunyao at WTT CT Taiyuan 2024 and those points are crucial, whereas Harimoto failed or perhaps she passed off the chance to Hirano instead?

Harimoto beating WYD at World Cup 2024 more than made up for it, but other than that, there is still a lot of work to do...

Hayata taking on 3 events looks slightly better than Ito did in the last cycle, yet her odds of equaling Ito in XD and WS are currently lower because Ito enjoyed host advantage.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

disappointing loss for Felix
2-0 well ahead. then QD started playing a bit better and his ball quality improved and suddenly Felix started making many mistakes, became nervous and lost totally his confidence

 

[zeio]

That’s just anecdotes about the tournament
in that context I’m sure even Chen Meng will say she was lucky to win the Gold Medal.

Ito at that time had very decent results against the Chinese. Very young Ito pushed Ding Ning to the retreat and almost pushed Liu Shiwen to the same fate before the Tokyo Olympics…

the emergence of a new type of more physical players than Ding or Liu or Zhu in the name of Chen Meng then Sun and Wang MY YD meant things would be more difficult for her. I think Li Xiaoxia also was of the same strength but there were not many (important) encounters ?

Also Ito case is a bit similar to Harimoto. Exposed very young to the world senior stage. Some big results and triple medal at Olympics.
For sure it killed a bit her motivation since . Like Harimoto her main quality was speed and reaction, not athleticism, and that’s something that apparently peaks much earlier to her disadvantage.

IMO Ito achievements have been totally deserved and there is not much to say against it.

A great example you picked there. CM actually bragged about her Olympic gold and LGL put her back in her place right away. He didn't say it explicitly but he implied she was lucky to have won at Tokyo 2020.

Here is another comment from Ito on luck back in 2019. At the start of Zennihon Takkyu 2019, Ito actually told the media that she wanted to prove that she didn't win in 2018 by dumb luck. She did win in the end but sadly the draw was favorable to her, a young Kihara for the final, Hayata for the SF whom she had (and still has to this day) a lopsided H2H and so on. Hayata blocking her a 3rd straight Triple Crown in 2020 and going down to the wire in 2021 (one could argue Ito was drained coming into the final against Ishikawa) speaks volume how much luck played a part. By extension, if not for Kato going the distance with Hayata in 2022, Ito wouldn't have necessarily won as easily even though her odds were favorable given the H2H.

Once again, Ito's record against the CNT players born in and after 2000 is much less impressive than Hirano and just slightly better than Hayata.

To this day, Hirano is still leading in WS medal table. Keep in mind Hirano won World Cup 2016 beating Samara (1st win), Ito, FTW (1st win), and CIC (1st win). She went on to win ATTC 2017 only dropping 2 games, beating CM (1st win), ZYL (1st win), DN (1st win), CIC again, Lee Zion and J. Sawettabut. She beat FTW again 4-0 and only dropped 1 game (4-1 CSY) before meeting DN in SF at WTTC 2017. Hirano has repeated her feat the most times. Even Hayata is better than Ito in that regard. As I've noted before, if not for her Olympic bronze, Ito would've ranked even lower than Fukuhara and Ishikawa.

伊藤美誠「去年の優勝がまぐれではないと。自分らしいプレーを出したい」全日本卓球 記者会見コメント
https://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/sports/articles/2019/01/003385.html

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Fatigue all over her demeanour, unfocused, the resilience and bounce disappeared, the relentless travel and play are taking their toll on limited stamina. This is the 2nd time I’ve seen Hayata having to sit down between games in as many tournaments. In her current form(and Hirano’s), Paris would at best be a beau geste, nothing more.
View attachment 30102

The crazy thing is that her next tournament starts tomorrow and is in Croatia. Granted the main draw starts on the 6th, but the back and forth jet lag of travelling half way around the world has got to be horrible on the body: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil -> Chongqing, China -> Zagreb, Croatia. I wonder how much of a role the JTTA has in planning this itinerary because the whole Japanese team schedule prior to the Olympics has a number of back to back tournaments. Hirano and Shinozuka get a slight reprieve by skipping Tunis. Hayata has enough distance in ranking points between her and SYB that she can skip the 2 regular Contenders. Maybe there's a method to this madness, but I'm just not seeing it.

 

[NextLevel]

A great example you picked there. CM actually bragged about her Olympic gold and LGL put her back in her place right away. He didn't say it explicitly but he implied she was lucky to have won at Tokyo 2020.

Here is another comment from Ito on luck back in 2019. At the start of Zennihon Takkyu 2019, Ito actually told the media that she wanted to prove that she didn't win in 2018 by dumb luck. She did win in the end but sadly the draw was favorable to her, a young Kihara for the final, Hayata for the SF whom she had (and still has to this day) a lopsided H2H and so on. Hayata blocking her a 3rd straight Triple Crown in 2020 and going down to the wire in 2021 (one could argue Ito was drained coming into the final against Ishikawa) speaks volume how much luck played a part. By extension, if not for Kato going the distance with Hayata in 2022, Ito wouldn't have necessarily won as easily even though her odds were favorable given the H2H.

Once again, Ito's record against the CNT players born in and after 2000 is much less impressive than Hirano and just slightly better than Hayata.

To this day, Hirano is still leading in WS medal table. Keep in mind Hirano won World CUp 2016 beating Samara (1st win), Ito, FTW (1st win), and CIC (1st win). She went on to win ATTC 2017 only dropping 2 games, beating CM (1st win), ZYL (1st win), DN (1st win), CIC, Lee Zion and J. Sawettabut. She beat FTW again 4-0 and only dropped 1 game (4-1 CSY) before meeting DN in SF at WTTC 2017. Hirano has repeated her feat the most times. Even Hayata is better than Ito in that regard. As I've noted before, if not for her Olympic bronze, Ito would've ranked even lower than Fukuhara and Ishikawa.

伊藤美誠「去年の優勝がまぐれではないと。自分らしいプレーを出したい」全日本卓球 記者会見コメント
https://www.tv-tokyo.co.jp/sports/articles/2019/01/003385.html

What Takkyu meant is that there are likely contexts in which Chen Meng spoke humbly about her gold medal so acting like what the athlete said (or anyone says) without the context of the whole achievement is giving one perspective too much privilege (or is Ito no longer the only Olympics singles medallist and gold medallist on the team and was accused of being clueless by some for stating the obvious?).

The top 3 seeds won the medals at the 2021 Tokyo Olympics and the 2012. In 2016, Ishikawa was upset by Kim Song, but Kim Song did win the bronze. At best one might argue that Yu Mengyu was playing out of her mind and Ito was lucky to get her injured but even then, when a 3rd seed coming in 3rd place is considered the kind of luck that is worth debating strenuously, it makes the notion of seeding ridiculous. Mima Ito by seeding was supposed to win the bronze, she did what she was supposed to do. Everyone understands this, and it takes a lot to say who should have won the bronze if not her and if not why it was lucky. Yet we have to read all these arguments as to why she was lucky to have done it without a single one admitting that she was the favorite to win the bronze on the first place?

Hirano had her time. It was a great time. Now let us focus on what the players are doing now rather than continuing these attempts to completely rewrite history. One could very well argue that had there been world cups without the Chinese in 2018 to 2021, Ito would have won one too. But we will never know but we do know Hirano won the one which took place at her relatively brief peak with no Chinese players attending. Not everyone is so lucky. Yet it is now being presented as inconttovertibe evidence of Hirano's superiority.

 

[NextLevel]

Harimoto v FZD was another classic between the 2. Harimoto had good chances to win this one with early leads but FZD was better in money time.

Calderano v LJK is a fantastic match. Hugo is delivering missiles even 3m away from the table...

I think looking at the punishment that the Chinese put their players through to develop extremely fine and consistent looping and placement machines, Harimoto still has ways to go to up the physicality of his game to catch up to where Xiang Peng and Lin Shidong will be in a few years. Or even Felix.

 

[zeio]

What Takkyu meant is that there are likely contexts in which Chen Meng spoke humbly about her gold medal so acting like what the athlete said (or anyone says) without the context of the whole achievement is giving one perspective too much privilege (or is Ito no longer the only Olympics singles medallist and gold medallist on the team and was accused of being clueless by some for stating the obvious?).

The top 3 seeds won the medals at the 2021 Tokyo Olympics and the 2012. In 2016, Ishikawa was upset by Kim Song, but Kim Song did win the bronze. At best one might argue that Yu Mengyu was playing out of her mind and Ito was lucky to get her injured but even then, when a 3rd seed coming in 3rd place is considered the kind of luck that is worth debating strenuously, it makes the notion of seeding ridiculous. Mima Ito by seeding was supposed to win the bronze, she did what she was supposed to do. Everyone understands this, and it takes a lot to say who should have won the bronze if not her and if not why it was lucky. Yet we have to read all these arguments as to why she was lucky to have done it without a single one admitting that she was the favorite to win the bronze on the first place?

Hirano had her time. It was a great time. Now let us focus on what the players are doing now rather than continuing these attempts to completely rewrite history. One could very well argue that had there been world cups without the Chinese in 2018 to 2021, Ito would have won one too. But we will never know but we do know Hirano won the one which took place at her relatively brief peak with no Chinese players attending. Not everyone is so lucky. Yet it is now being presented as inconttovertibe evidence of Hirano's superiority.

Moving the goalposts on me now? You folks really like straw man. Listen here, it's CM that proclaimed her era had come and LGL corrected her immediately.

I just came across another article in which Mizutani said he and Ito were lucky to win in XD at Tokyo 2020. Will post it later on. As always, stop wasting my time with opinions that are not in line with the facts.

 

[NextLevel]

Moving the goalposts on me now? You folks really like straw man. Listen here, it's CM that proclaimed her era had come and LGL corrected her immediately.

I just came across another article in which Mizutani said he and Ito were lucky to win in XD at Tokyo 2020. Will post it later on. As always, stop wasting my time with opinions that are not in line with the facts.

No, it is not strawmanning, strawmanning means something very different from what you think it means. No it is not moving the goal posts either, because the point is why one should take any athlete's statement over lots of evidence. It is called pointing out that you are not even acknowledging the main point and going out of your way to ignore the main point. When a top seed wins an event and says he was lucky to win the event, it is narrative in part because if we followed seeding, he was the favorite. Yes maybe his father passed and his wife divorced him and his daughter had an accident on the day of the final match, but none of these things show he wasn't the top seed.

You have failed to acknowledge that as lucky as Ito supposedly was, she was the 3rd seed (favorite for the bronze medal). She was borderline unbeatable by everyone that wasn't Chinese for a few years at that time. Everyone who watched those matches knew this. Yet you are still prioritizing a statement she made about being lucky over all the heaps of evidence accumulated over those years?

Ito and Mizutani were at best the #2 seed in XD. Yes they faced a weakened Chinese team because of LSW's injuries. I do not know the context in which anyone said they were lucky but when a a#2 seed beats a highly favored #1 seed, and even saves a few match points against Germany, I can understand the discussion of luck. But a #2 seed saying it was luck as some way to discredit the fact they were expected to at least win silver is silly.

For the last time, Ito could have been lucky. But when someone points out the #3 seed winning the bronze medal is pretty much expected, going through more arguments that don't provide any real data but refuse to acknowledge that is just bad form.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

A great example you picked there. CM actually bragged about her Olympic gold and LGL put her back in her place right away. He didn't say it explicitly but he implied she was lucky to have won at Tokyo 2020.

Here is another comment from Ito on luck back in 2019. At the start of Zennihon Takkyu 2019, Ito actually told the media that she wanted to prove that she didn't win in 2018 by dumb luck. She did win in the end but sadly the draw was favorable to her, a young Kihara for the final, Hayata for the SF whom she had (and still has to this day) a lopsided H2H and so on. Hayata blocking her a 3rd straight Triple Crown in 2020 and going down to the wire in 2021 (one could argue Ito was drained coming into the final against Ishikawa) speaks volume how much luck played a part. By extension, if not for Kato going the distance with Hayata in 2022, Ito wouldn't have necessarily won as easily even though her odds were favorable given the H2H.

Once again, Ito's record against the CNT players born in and after 2000 is much less impressive than Hirano and just slightly better than Hayata.

in every big and long tournament, pro or amateur level, any sport, there is an element of luck.
but notice how its always the same winning in the end.

In (Continental & )World Cup (&Champions League) Football (Soccer), more often than not the Cup Winner has had to go through penalty shootout at least once... and yet, its always Germany / Brazil / Italy / Spain (Real Madrid...) / Argentina who wins in the end....in more than 40 years watching international soccer, maybe Denmark Euro 88 and Greece Euro 04 are the only exceptions where the underdog won (and no PK !)

my team mate won All-Japan veteran 50+ tournament, down from 6-10 in QF decider... but kicked ass 3-0 in SF and F... isn't that luck ? and the 2-3 guys he really usually struggle against were knocked out early...

Luck happens all the time, to 95+% of winners, don't blame Ito for having some. She was definitely the 3rd best player in Tokyo WS. If China could align 1 or 2 more players, like WMY, her chances to have bronze would have been way slimmer but its what it is. Ito totally deserved the #3 seeding. She was very dominant against non-Chinese players, including against her teammates at the time.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The point about comparing the potential of a 17 year old to the potential of a 23 year old is too obvious to state and the point about 23 being well past zeio's achieve-or-retire age is well stated as well. Unfortunately, winning arguments is more fun than dispassionately presenting facts.

i can't think of the 25 age limit of Mr Titanics girfriend's retirement age.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

too many tournaments for the Japanese players. they should recharge before OG

its all part of the forced participation.
mark my word, you will see more and more of these overloading surfacing.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

No, it is not strawmanning, strawmanning means something very different from what you think it means. No it is not moving the goal posts either, because the point is why one should take any athlete's statement over lots of evidence. It is called pointing out that you are not even acknowledging the main point and going out of your way to ignore the main point. When a top seed wins an event and says he was lucky to win the event, it is narrative in part because if we followed seeding, he was the favorite. Yes maybe his father passed and his wife divorced him and his daughter had an accident on the day of the final match, but none of these things show he wasn't the top seed.

so player says something
coach says something else in an interview

then that is the whole picture?
I think not.

Since, all these people who talk in front of a mic - are PR trained.

So I agree one needs to look at evidence, else you just believe in statement made by people who are trained to feed information one way is just like those who believe in promises made by politicians.

and of course, there is humbleness with some answers, so/or there could be meaning within the meaning.
I personally don't take too much of these interviews as gospel.

You have failed to acknowledge that as lucky as Ito supposedly was, she was the 3rd seed (favorite for the bronze medal). She was borderline unbeatable by everyone that wasn't Chinese for a few years at that time. Everyone who watched those matches knew this. Yet you are still prioritizing a statement she made about being lucky over all the heaps of evidence accumulated over those years?

Ito and Mizutani were at best the #2 seed in XD. Yes they faced a weakened Chinese team because of LSW's injuries. I do not know the context in which anyone said they were lucky but when a a#2 seed beats a highly favored #1 seed, and even saves a few match points against Germany, I can understand the discussion of luck. But a #2 seed saying it was luck as some way to discredit the fact they were expected to at least win silver is silly.

LSW throw away that gold medal as far as video replies goes.
injured or not, 2 top seeds met in finals, and it was a close final
home ground advantage and so many of these players came into the new JNT TT system with Tokyo OG in mind - 8 year plan.
Not even China had a 8 year plan.

For the last time, Ito could have been lucky. But when someone points out the #3 seed winning the bronze medal is pretty much expected, going through more arguments that don't provide any real data but refuse to acknowledge that is just bad form.

I agreed, seed = result should be the right away to go in terms of expectations.
not to mention, that seed = world ranking, was prior WTT days

 

[Peter93]

Imagine talking about the tournament that is literally going on right now and not whatever the hell this is.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Imagine talking about the tournament that is literally going on right now and not whatever the hell this is.

well, its gone to the boring part of China vs China

so hoping for WCQ to loose, otherwise, the same thing just different day

 

[Robin0910]

Good fight by Dang Qiu. I still think he deserves an Olympics spot