Zhang Jike CONFIRMED and will play singles at Rio Olympics 2016!

[NextLevel]

Given how must countries handle Olympic budgeting.
Even qualified players will not make it, as they are not medal prospects players

But I guess you don't see or understand my meaning with kids not going for table tennis.
Table tennis is dropping rapidly in Asia
Maybe you will understand my statement in 10 years time

Kids not going for TT has nothing to do with whether one or two or three people can get to Olympics in singles. I wrote elsewhere that it will be interesting to see whether TT's popularity can survive its decline in China. But that decline will have little to do with the number of spots in the Olympics singles event,

 

[ttmonster]

One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

 

[NextLevel]

One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

I think that idea was also considered and I am not sure what came of it. In any case, they would have to keep China out of that as well and that would not fix the problem. Some things required to grow a sport are not fair to specific individuals. IF Lebron James was paid his true value as basketball player, it would be tough to afford him. But he knows that his status is tied to the NBA and winning so he can take less to make things work and even agree to take less as part of a deal with the Player's Union and ownership. The point is that people should understand the driver of these decisions and not just focus on what they don't like about them.

 

[dio_hgw]

To me, the pinnacle of table tennis is no longer Olympic
In facts, Olympic is probably lower rated/leveled than some world tours.

The world champs, world cup, certain world tours, will provide a much higher competition and level of table tennis.
Olympic is like a joke for table tennis.
Imagine Team USA swimming only allowed 2 swimmers per category, how about sprinters too? Team USA wins way too many medals in those 2 sports - its bad for the sport too then
If swimming and athletics, they also make it 2 players per category - this will also lower the level of the tournament

Swimming and athletics are generally another story cause there is the extra interest for breaking records. However, in this year's summer olympics each country is limited to 3 participants in athletics and 2 participants in swimming, even though more could have met the qualification standards.
Obviously this is a general trend decided by the IOC in order medals to be spread, more countries to get involved and propaganda based on sports dominance to be fought. Probably also doping will be less in the Olympics (but likely more in national, tournament and qualification level).
I tend to find this policy right but I can't say that you and Baal and many more don't have reasonable arguments. We'll see how it works...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Kids not going for TT has nothing to do with whether one or two or three people can get to Olympics in singles. I wrote elsewhere that it will be interesting to see whether TT's popularity can survive its decline in China. But that decline will have little to do with the number of spots in the Olympics singles event,

Yes it does
Parents all aim for highest level of achievement
Olympic glory has been in China for a long time and that is why they put so much time and money (you have any idea how poor parents need to fund/bribe coaches from youth?)
I guess maybe you don't quite understand Chinese way of thinking.
As a westerner thinking, I would agree with you, but then again, Chinese sports star will cry when getting interviewed when they achieve olympic glory - to proof to the world that a Chinese person is also worthy to compete on world stage.
China has change a lot since ww2, from sick dog of asia to world champion. A history maybe you will never understand.

If I am a Chinese parent, I will get my kids involved with a sports that China can send more entries.
Have you ever thought that all the ITTF rule changes - included the 2 player rule have all combined to destroy Chinese table tennis?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

dio_hgw, matt

It has already been 4 years. I agree that time will tell

Matt, my apologies, you did say world champ medals , but your chinese taipei example is flawed. Since the last olympic and world champ medals, Chinese Taipei had no boost, but rather the main investor had a problem with CCY, where CCY quit from the main investors - as he played in China and not Taiwan. So I must say, things are going far from right in Taipei. I still don't see any boost that you are referring to, but I agree with you the logic if a medal came from NZ, your national champ would actually get sent and not just rejected. A SA player was rejected in 1996 olympic as she was never a medal prospect too - that killed TT in SA I reckon (what is the purpose to train if we will never ever go to the olympics?)
Maybe there is a boost from Germany? From England? Yes, no? its 4 years, lets wait another few.....

Time will tell if this 2 player is working.
I agree that the IOC is making olympic entries fewer. 10 years to see if it is good or bad
So far all other TT changes has been mostly bad

Dio, me and baal had this debate 4+ years ago already, i really don't have time to dig up old stuff.
As I said, Xu Xin will be the best player never to get to the olympics, and he won't be the only one in the future. I said this way before london 2012.

Maybe Olympic should cut away from singles, and only focus on team - as this is what olympic medals is becoming - not about player, but about how many medals a country is limited to have.
I also see IOC will one day limit teams to 1 player only - as China still have a high percentage of having both gold and silver medals.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes it does
Parents all aim for highest level of achievement
Olympic glory has been in China for a long time and that is why they put so much time and money (you have any idea how poor parents need to fund/bribe coaches from youth?)
I guess maybe you don't quite understand Chinese way of thinking.
As a westerner thinking, I would agree with you, but then again, Chinese sports star will cry when getting interviewed when they achieve olympic glory - to proof to the world that a Chinese person is also worthy to compete on world stage.
China has change a lot since ww2, from sick dog of asia to world champion. A history maybe you will never understand.

If I am a Chinese parent, I will get my kids involved with a sports that China can send more entries.
Have you ever thought that all the ITTF rule changes - included the 2 player rule have all combined to destroy Chinese table tennis?

No, I have not. China still gets three gold medallists in the team event and are still the top nation, so the total number of medalling athletes is the same. The sport is getting killed by more prestigious sports and computer games.

I have generally understood why people say that the Olympics is not as competitive. But I find the logic that says these changes hurt TT globally to be unconvincing. It's mostly people who want to see great matches but do not care about Olympics politics.

 

[Matt Hetherington]

It's a well known fact, if you win an olympic medal in any sport in most countries then you are likely to receive more funding for your sport and also become more attractive to sponsors.

I agree with NextLevel, table tennis is definitely falling under competition from other sports. This is something which Peter Karlsson mentioned in his interview with me a few years ago and also what I heard in New Zealand. In the 70s and 80s table tennis was much more popular than it is now but there was a big growth in different indoor sports, particularly indoor cricket which started to take players away from table tennis.

I like how far off tangent we can sometimes get with these threads though because they always seem to come back to the same thing (you would think ITTF would get on the same page with it too!)

 

[Der_Echte]

One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

I like Monster's idea, it would make Umpires and Organizers work a lot more to earn the piddling sums of money they get. still, an international umpire cannot beat the chances at photo ops and maybe going on a thunder run with Adam Barbrow...

 

[Michal_Z]

Given how must countries handle Olympic budgeting.
Even qualified players will not make it, as they are not medal prospects players

But I guess you don't see or understand my meaning with kids not going for table tennis.
Table tennis is dropping rapidly in Asia
Maybe you will understand my statement in 10 years time

Tony - the problem is that this sport is really too complicated!
Its known that for fast thinking that is needed in table tennis (general tactics, strategy, rotation, direction and speed of ball; moving, weaknesses and position of the oponent, moving, weaknesses and position of the player) and you need to count in so many factors, that simply one half of your brain (that is typically needed for other activities) is not enough. So this is the only sport, where you need to turn on both brain hemispheres to be able to play top level. Kids of today - what are they doing? They are looking at their smartphones or tablets or notebooks, all the time they are damaging their brains with that f**ing white light, when not that, they are poisoning themselves with sugar and artificial food that is damaging their health, they are drinking milk and all the stuff made from it so they are causing themselves allergies and skin problems..
Tell me - how can kids of this generation play table tennis?
They are so lost..
It is so much easier to play some agressive RPG game or just play candy crush on the phone.. so many many stupid stuff that is melting their brains, who the hell would try hard to play table tennis?

I mean - that is my point of view..
And this is not affecting just table tennis, other sports too.. Kids are stupid. I mean - compare kids 20 years ago to kids now, see the difference?
Remember yourself young playing basketball or volleyball or other sports at school, what have you been capable of? Now I look at the kids and they are so poor..

 

[Persistence TT]

I think michal_z and nextlevel got straight to the point. Or maybe I just agree with their opinions

Computer games in the past 20 years have definitely damaged sports of all kinds not just table tennis and my perception is that u need to have exnperienced a certain level of play to understand professional or world class table tennis and admire it

How the hell can the average TV guy understand that ML's serve for example is quite deceptive being sidetopspin and not underspin leading to the opponent's bad push resulting in a high ball which allows ML to destroy it with perfect technique mechanics and athleticism?

Or why a BH loop kill of kreanga dima or any other great player is so damn perfect to execute and deserves utmost admiration against a heavy underspin ball?

I mean the average guy still thinks that table tennis is only wrist action and taht the chinese are the best because they practice all day and they are really short, thus faster than other players, which sometimes is a fact but mostly its a stupid stereotype

There is a comment in the olympic 2012 final of a hilarious guy who asks " what's all that sorcery when they serve?" which is exactly a simple but 100% accurate depiction of what "average" tv viewers understand about table tennis. Almost nothing : PPP

 

[Persistence TT]

As for computer games, I dont like to consider them evil or great but whether we like it or not they have a huge money pool. Im still a gamer myself and games can be good for the brain also suppose of course you dont play all day.

I witnessed the era where counterstrike was rising globally ,and many players made lots of money out of it so I dont demonize games so much. Its not something u can do for the rest of ur life but damn, if I was able to play games 20 to 35-40 as many professional gamers do, I would definitely do it.

Everything is good, as long as you combine targeting towards inner balance... sports and games or whatever else u like.

for chess lovers magnus carlsen is also training in tennis and at the gym, it seems awkward hearing this at first if u dont know about chess, but many chess profesionals have treated their body with the same intensity needed as their mind

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

In Chinese Table Tennis
Yes, computer games/other sports, is a threat.
Maybe not as crazy as the American and European kids, which sounds like a couch potato.
In China, they are also loosing kids to academic and business career options (to take over parents empire)

But in Chinese Table Tennis of just this decade - how many drop outs has happened in a "pro" level where they don't see hope in A team or Olympic Team
Already CNT is streamlining based on the Olympic Cycle
Less and less players make the mix and more focus on 3 to 4 players, than 5 to 8 players of previous generation.
Now, you can be world number 1 and top 3, and will never have a chance to play Olympic

Just like Matt state, a country need medals, these players also need medals to survive and to go into the history books.
With out a chance to even qualify - they will loose interest and change career paths - to maybe immigration (we already know how many left China already) or just change careers. Does it help Chinese TT if the next grand slam looses interest in the sport? or immigrates? Does it help table tennis if we loose these type of caliber?


table tennis in China is cruel since 20 years ago and more
It is just so much more cruel today with ITTF and IOC
Nextlevel hasn't been inside Chinese table tennis system (maybe just from the internet), and he will never understand this in a personally level as I said above
Yes, all your tv and sports does make a different, but your German or USA table tennis system is not so cruel - is it?

Will Olympic hurt table tennis? maybe yes, maybe no
Will 2 player rule devalue Olympic table tennis - yes for sure - the level from QF and below is a too low. SF and Final is still world class
Its like a watching a low rated world tour where good matches start on the final day or final 2 days.....

I sit in RSA, and hope RSA can one day make the olympics, but then I also sit in another chair that a young Xu Xin and LSW, who both are good enough to be Olympic champion - only have 2 or 3 shots at it (8 or 12 years), but can't make the cut.
Remember the great LGL, he made Olympics as the 3rd player.
If LGL didn't make it as per 2 player rule, our table tennis today would not be as great - would it?
So the ones who love LGL (I think you guys all do), what if he didn't make the cut?
Xu Xin and LSW can never be head coach of China, as they do not have olympic gold (unless CNT change policies in the future)

3 to 2, we will see the effect soon. It is starting in China, soon I feel the world can feel it too.
what will happen after that when China still continues sweeping all (isn't that the one thing IOC/ITTF is trying to stop)
Net height
table size
bigger ball
bigger blades
thinner rubbers

imo, the focus should be on uplifting the weak, not reducing the strong
CNT and CTTA won't back out. There is 30 + provinces
Only 2 people from 1 billion can make the cut.
I rather go into swimming, there is so much more medals options there than table tennis

 

[NextLevel]

TTT,

I am not clear what your argument is. At least, I see that you are willing to consider that the Olympic TT funding might get better with less Chinese dominance of the three medal spots. That's all the restriction does. It gives another country a higher chance of getting a medal. I can understand why you do not think it is good for China, and I guess time will tell whether the sport is truly bigger than China.

 

[NextLevel]

Cai Zhenhua was never a World or Olympic Singles champion either, BTW. If the policy is new, then so be it. LSW and XX have not won a WTTC singles medal. They both have Olympics team medals which should count for something. In the end, the two athletes per country rule helps many more nations play singles and teams. The US qualified a team this year and two singles players. Players in Europe from countries like Finland are also getting people in. I know some people would prefer to see three Chinese people play rather than people from obscure TT nations but we have to take a serious look at our sport. We still haven't created events that make it more appealing to the broader public (I still believe coordination and competitive exhibitions would take things to another level. I would rather they take these risks than keep catering to just the top of the sport as long as the big picture is kept in view.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Next Level
I agree with where you are coming from, but there is a major flaw in your view, especially on the part of the bigger picture.

All these (new) countries now at olympic will not get a medal
without medals, they will not get funding
without funding, they will not win
without winning, they can't get medals
So many countries, but so little medals - most players will not have medal = no funding?

I already told Matt that Taiwan DID NOT get any more money from Olympic and World Champ medals
Will Germany get more? Maybe the German forum members can comment
I know France is getting more funding, but that has nothing to do with getting (past) medals

Cai Zhen Hua was before the time of the new rule + olympic



LGL was 3rd player - imagine a world today without LGL's leadership in the sport and what he is doing for the World?
and China not bigger than the sport - yes I agree, but who is doing more for the sport than any other country in the world? is it not China??
You can't one side write off China, and the other side need China/praise China. Otherwise you are just like the ITTF Chairman who is totally clueless and point all fingers at China.

If you really see the bigger picture, then you will realise if Germany, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore won all medals and not a single one for China in Rio or Tokyo Olympics - will this make table tennis better in the whole world?
Will this allow top 20 countries to get more funding? will this allow top 100 countries to get more funding? Will this push countries like NZ and South Africa to even send players to the Olympics? I honestly don't think it will help 50%+ of the countries in the world if China totally fails to the other top 5 countries.

I have to say, most of the worlds (including your Germans, Japanese, Singaporean, French) etc etc, became strong because of China.

XX and LSW, will never have a chance now
Tokyo is also out.
Tough luck, if they were not Chinese, given they skills and talent, i'm sure they have a shot at being olympic champion

So tell me, how is 2 player rule will make table tennis better?
Team USA will get 10 times funding for Tokyo?

 

[NextLevel]

Tony,

The standards are not the same for every country. But if only China is winning the medals, then no one else is really investing in the sport.

And while you may not agree, other countries winning medals and China getting shut out is healthy for the sport even if only in the short term. Events like that built the WSA.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony,

The standards are not the same for every country. But if only China is winning the medals, then no one else is really investing in the sport.

And while you may not agree, other countries winning medals and China getting shut out is healthy for the sport even if only in the short term. Events like that built the WSA.

Tell me, how did China shut out / failure, built the WSA?
Do you know everything about WSA or just because there is 1 gold medal player and the player choose the "coaching" career, that you gathered it built the WSA?
Based on your logic, why isn't there a JOWA and JPA in Sweden, JPGA in France, JMSA in Belgian, VSA in Belarus,
And based on just the above 4 countries, how much development/growth/funding is there today compared to the past glories that the best player in that country achieved.

I think it is very naive to think that 1 medal will change a countries table tennis destiny.
Yes it will help, but that is just a minute issue out of the entire bigger picture.

This is not just a problem in Europe, but take Asia
Korea, Japan is maybe better off. Taiwan and Singapore is like the government don't care about it.
In your country, there is a junior olympic medal - how much did your national body provide for the player and the future? Lots?

 

[NextLevel]

Tell me, how did China shut out / failure, built the WSA?
Do you know everything about WSA or just because there is 1 gold medal player and the player choose the "coaching" career, that you gathered it built the WSA?
Based on your logic, why isn't there a JOWA and JPA in Sweden, JPGA in France, JMSA in Belgian, VSA in Belarus,
And based on just the above 4 countries, how much development/growth/funding is there today compared to the past glories that the best player in that country achieved.

I think it is very naive to think that 1 medal will change a countries table tennis destiny.
Yes it will help, but that is just a minute issue out of the entire bigger picture.

This is not just a problem in Europe, but take Asia
Korea, Japan is maybe better off. Taiwan and Singapore is like the government don't care about it.
In your country, there is a junior olympic medal - how much did your national body provide for the player and the future? Lots?

Tony, in anything this complicated, you know that there are a lot of hidden and emotional assumptions underlying any argument. Feng Tianwei for example speaks about the attention and good that her bronze medal did for her and the sport as it was only the second Olympic medal in their history. For you, the government of Singapore doesn't care about it.

The WSA was a result of many things but it definitely would not have taken off without Schlager's world championship branding Look at Schlager without the world championship. I am just pointing out an example of the kind of attention that winning can bring to a sport in a country. I am sure that there are other ways of interpreting what I wrote.

In America, the government doesn't fund sports like in other countries - the national body is largely funded by membership dues and the Junior Olympics does not excite anyone per se. It's just a totally different set of assumptions we are working under. I have accepted that.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Tony, in anything this complicated, you know that there are a lot of hidden and emotional assumptions underlying any argument. Feng Tianwei for example speaks about the attention and good that her bronze medal did for her and the sport as it was only the second Olympic medal in their history. For you, the government of Singapore doesn't care about it.

The WSA was a result of many things but it definitely would not have taken off without Schlager's world championship branding Look at Schlager without the world championship. I am just pointing out an example of the kind of attention that winning can bring to a sport in a country. I am sure that there are other ways of interpreting what I wrote.

In America, the government doesn't fund sports like in other countries - the national body is largely funded by membership dues and the Junior Olympics does not excite anyone per se. It's just a totally different set of assumptions we are working under. I have accepted that.

So from the 2 you listed, that did nothing for the national sport.
In fact, how is Austria?
Sweden sure isn't so well
Taipei also didn't benefit.
So I think it is safe to say that a medal will not do "total wonders" for your country.
The fundamentals of helping table tennis is more than medals - ie life after the olympics.

NZ and RSA for example all had players qualified and NOC decided they are not medal hopes, so did not enter the player - this is reality.

China can loose all medals - I find it only a slight benefit to world table tennis.
If China pulls out of table tennis, I see this is a greater damage than other countries getting medals
This seesaw is not a balance one and ITTF needs to understand the real problem. It is not China winning too much, it is the other countries loosing too much.