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TableTennisDaily
03-23-2017, 03:13 PM
Dimitrij Ovtcharov has just made an Instagram status saying that he is unhappy with the new ITTF World Ranking system. The ITTF plan to change the World Ranking structure as of 2018 with a system similar to that of tennis. This new ranking system will mean players have to enter many tournaments to maintain their World Ranking as rankings will change more dynamically, rather than from a ranking that has been built up from a point basis after so many years. We should see a lot more changes in the top 10 rankings as of 2018.

What do you think?

Timo Boll would be World Ranked at 44 if the new ranking system was implemented in today's date as seen via the ITTF test ranking here: http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/

Ovtcharov expressed, "What do you guys think about the new ITTF World Ranking system that will be introduced in 2018? As an example Timo Boll would be ranked nr 6 in Germany and 44 in the world... of course I can't in any way agree with that being how it should be... what is your opinion guys?

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/ovtcharovunhappyranking2018.jpg

It looks like Dimitrij Ovtcharov has been sent a test version of some sort?

NextLevel
03-23-2017, 04:22 PM
They want to go to a tennis system where you have to play on the tour to get ranking points. The consequences will be interesting. Very different from the current system where you have a rating which goes up and down with match play but stays the same if you don't play tournaments.

NextLevel
03-23-2017, 04:25 PM
http://www.jtta.or.jp/Portals/0/images/player/ranking/ITTF_World%20Ranking_2018.pdf

Garrison
03-23-2017, 04:27 PM
The documentation is open to the public. ittf even suggests sending in feedback until 31st of May so it is not finalised yet.

http://www.ittf.com/rankings/ (bottom of the page)

It would mean that points for world tour tournaments would only last for 12 months while wttc and olympics last longer.
imo this is very disrespectful towards the players. World ranking is something you build up throughout your professional career, step by step and not because you have two lucky tournament finishes in the last year.
It is another attempt by ittf to get more top players to play smaller world tour tournaments.

I agree that there could be changes to the current system, but it should not be that drastical.

tropical
03-23-2017, 05:49 PM
Regardless of what we are gonna say, ITTF already made up its hard head.

ttmonster
03-23-2017, 06:12 PM
IMO in a way its good because it will result into new faces in the world top 10 more often than now , however , if there is too much of disruption players won't be able to build a stable fan following which might not help the sport ...

Definitely , Its unfair on older players who have to pace themselves but the young guns can go on playing every pro tour there is to keep improving their ranking. But thats the way it is . The catch is some of the qualification criteria for world events like Olympics have a dependency on world ranking , which again might create further complications ...

TTHopeful
03-23-2017, 06:16 PM
Does this system work well in tennis?

NextLevel
03-23-2017, 06:21 PM
IMO in a way its good because it will result into new faces in the world top 10 more often than now , however , if there is too much of disruption players won't be able to build a stable fan following which might not help the sport ...

Definitely , Its unfair on older players who have to pace themselves but the young guns can go on playing every pro tour there is to keep improving their ranking. But thats the way it is . The catch is some of the qualification criteria for world events like Olympics have a dependency on world ranking , which again might create further complications ...

I think the bias towards the young is good for our sport.

NextLevel
03-23-2017, 06:23 PM
Does this system work well in tennis?

I think so. Tennis has a lot more money in it though, which is part of the reason why it works well. You have to be active to win points, but there is enough money to support travelling and large draws. At grand slams, players now get paid enough to cover their trip if they get eliminated in the first round. Most ITTF events don't pay even that to the winner.

fanTT
03-23-2017, 06:55 PM
Probably every person would agree that person RANK should tell to average joe what kind of level the player has. If you would go to tennis system where "the more you play the better rank you get" blows up the rank idea itself. It doesn't show your true level -it just show how often you particapate at competitions AND just a little of your reached skill. You want examples?? Check Ricardas Berankis...

midikem
03-23-2017, 07:08 PM
Kallberg is one of the best players in sweden and he is like 11 in sweden and 203 on the new ranking. What a bad system. This sucks.

zoomtt
03-23-2017, 07:41 PM
We are currently working on a article to analyze the new ranking system.

It seems that there is a problem with the new ranking test website, as there are some players with wrong ranking calculation. Don't trust that much the current status as it will change when the issue is fixed.. a couple of examples of overrated players are Hung Chieh-Chiang or Cristian Pletea.

Anyway, an important thing here is only the BEST 8 results you have are the ones that count for your ranking. That means that, at some point, playing more championships won't make your results improve, but only improve the positions you had in the previous ones.

sanavasaraja
03-23-2017, 07:44 PM
It doesn't seem to (as) accurately reflect the skill of a lot of players. I don't think Samsonov is #4 in the world, and I'm quite certain Timo Boll isn't #44. Just for that I don't like it. Then I am quite sure ITTF probably has its/their reasons as to why they want to implement this and I don't want to commit the fallacy of bad mouthing something that has been pondered by people who have a far better understanding of things (and want the best for the sport). I guess this system will at least cause many "upsets"... :D

TTFrenzy
03-23-2017, 08:05 PM
The documentation is open to the public. ittf even suggests sending in feedback until 31st of May so it is not finalised yet.

http://www.ittf.com/rankings/ (bottom of the page)

It would mean that points for world tour tournaments would only last for 12 months while wttc and olympics last longer.
imo this is very disrespectful towards the players. World ranking is something you build up throughout your professional career, step by step and not because you have two lucky tournament finishes in the last year.
It is another attempt by ittf to get more top players to play smaller world tour tournaments.

I agree that there could be changes to the current system, but it should not be that drastical.


Do the players have a word on this ? Like a recognized committee with a chairman like samsonov and stuff?

TTFrenzy
03-23-2017, 08:15 PM
Also, older players are already at disadvantage since the game has become more physical if this ranking system prevents oldies from playin then it is way better for the development of youths. The old days of old legends should be left in the past, it is annoying at least for me as a viewer to watch guys like saive or persson playing on NT's for 30 years playing the exact same balls and patterns and youngsters are not given any chance.

Federations including ITTF should plan on the long term , everybody in governing bodies should try to think of it as a product to be sold but where quality comes first.


Sending/receiving free feedbacks from all the average joe's out there looks amateurish to me unless they do co-operate with the players first and then maybe take the ideas that really worth working on from all the average joes.

In the end since its always about competition probably some players will support it while others wont. Its the big picture that matters for us viewers but I guess money from sponsors always comes first.

TTHopeful
03-23-2017, 08:44 PM
I think so. Tennis has a lot more money in it though, which is part of the reason why it works well. You have to be active to win points, but there is enough money to support travelling and large draws. At grand slams, players now get paid enough to cover their trip if they get eliminated in the first round. Most ITTF events don't pay even that to the winner.

I saw on a tennis match the other day Federer's career match earnings were over 200 million. In tennis the ranking system works like you say as there is huge incentive to turn up.

Tony's Table Tennis
03-23-2017, 09:23 PM
I think so. Tennis has a lot more money in it though, which is part of the reason why it works well. You have to be active to win points, but there is enough money to support travelling and large draws. At grand slams, players now get paid enough to cover their trip if they get eliminated in the first round. Most ITTF events don't pay even that to the winner.

Having spoken to a couple of ITTF world tour winners in both senior and junior level.
I can tell you, if they win the lower prize money tournament, they actually "pay in" to be there
flights (+ coach), hotels etc, isn't cheap

zoomtt
03-23-2017, 09:23 PM
I saw on a tennis match the other day Federer's career match earnings were over 200 million. In tennis the ranking system works like you say as there is huge incentive to turn up.

I think that the incentive is always relative to the amount you are used to earn. For example, I can imagine the frustration of a player facing Ma Long in the first round of an ITTF World Tour tournament. Having a better ranking improves your changes of avoiding this kind of players and therefore reaching higher prizes.

We wrote an article regarding the amount of money top players make in the ITTF World Tour competitons and how this compares to other sports (you can find it here (https://zoomtt.com/2017/01/08/2017-ittf-world-tour-how-much-money-will-ma-long-company-make/)). Even if it is not a big amount, it can make for a living for many players.

NextLevel
03-23-2017, 10:06 PM
It doesn't seem to (as) accurately reflect the skill of a lot of players. I don't think Samsonov is #4 in the world, and I'm quite certain Timo Boll isn't #44. Just for that I don't like it. Then I am quite sure ITTF probably has its/their reasons as to why they want to implement this and I don't want to commit the fallacy of bad mouthing something that has been pondered by people who have a far better understanding of things (and want the best for the sport). I guess this system will at least cause many "upsets"... :D


This doesn't have to be the case. It all depends on what the rankings are designed to do. There can be a rating system like the current one and a ranking system like the one ittf wants to implement. There are benefits to both. For a whole, Wozniacki was #1 in the later part of the last decade and the early part of this one but everyone knew Serena was the best player. Inventing people to participate like Wozniacki can be a good thing.

tabletennisuk
03-23-2017, 10:15 PM
I'm not sure I see the problem with this? Players who win more games should be ranked higher? Yes Ma Long is the best player in the world, but if he only plays two or three world tour comps every year, I'm not sure he's proving it? If someone is playing every tour event and playing consistently well, why shouldn't he be seen as one of the worlds best? He's proving it tournament after tournament.

If these big guns want to remain where they are, they need to play more games. That can only be a good thing?? If world ranking means that much to Timo Boll, he'll have to play some more games!! Not sure I see the issue with professional table tennis players being encouraged to play more games!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Suga D
03-23-2017, 11:13 PM
I'm not sure I see the problem with this? Players who win more games should be ranked higher? Yes Ma Long is the best player in the world, but if he only plays two or three world tour comps every year, I'm not sure he's proving it? If someone is playing every tour event and playing consistently well, why shouldn't he be seen as one of the worlds best? He's proving it tournament after tournament.

If these big guns want to remain where they are, they need to play more games. That can only be a good thing?? If world ranking means that much to Timo Boll, he'll have to play some more games!! Not sure I see the issue with professional table tennis players being encouraged to play more games!?


Sent from myPhone using Tapatalk

Well that might even make sense to a degree from that point of view.
But let me show the other side of the story: we shouldn't forget Timo doesn't want to penetrate his body that much anymore due to his age and risking injuries. We could see this already happen in the last couple of years.
So this would mean his ranking would drop if he plays less often. But his actual playing level most likely wouldn't drop by that much.
So then his ranking wouldn't be accurate to his level at all. Whereas young players who use every Chance they get to play at every possible tournament would get a better rating and hence ranking even if they never make it past last sixteen/ last thirtytwo.
So the World ranking will nowhere be accurate to playing level anymore, 'cause who can seriously think that the ranking would define the playing level? Hard to imagine somebody would seriously want this!
[EMOJI6]

zoomtt
03-23-2017, 11:28 PM
As I mentioned before, only the best 8 tournaments are considered (that is, the 8 highest amount of points earned in a tournament). Considering that every player usually competes in the Olympics, World Championships, European/African Championships.. those already count as 3 tournaments, whose points last for 4, 2 and 2 years respectively.

What does it mean? That having good results in those tournaments will still keep them with a good amount of points (they have a yearly reduction though). They would only need to play 5 more tournaments to opt for the maximum number of tournaments which count for the current ranking. In fact, that's exactly the amount of ITTF World Tour events that players must compete on to qualify for the ITTF Grand Finals.

Therefore, I would say that top players in a descending level could just participate in the main events and keep their ranking.

Sali
03-24-2017, 10:44 AM
I do not know what is dima compaining, besides that he usually complains on everything. One thing is for sure, current system does not correspond to international stage. Dima should know best this is international system, not national one. So does not matter how good Boll play in Germany, if he does not compete in international stage, then he does not have int. ranking level.
In my opinion the changes are to force best players compete more. This is great for the spectators, because top players will play more. Boll is great example, he plays very occasionaly and he is still 12 player, a was 10 not long ago. Also who has seen Tang Peng playing high level lately or Chen Chien An. Not mentioning Liang Jingkun who played only 2 tournaments one he was down in preliminary stage and the other lost in 1/4 and now he is to 50.

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 12:37 PM
Well that might even make sense to a degree from that point of view.
But let me show the other side of the story: we shouldn't forget Timo doesn't want to penetrate his body that much anymore due to his age and risking injuries. We could see this already happen in the last couple of years.
So this would mean his ranking would drop if he plays less often. But his actual playing level most likely wouldn't drop by that much.
So then his ranking wouldn't be accurate to his level at all. Whereas young players who use every Chance they get to play at every possible tournament would get a better rating and hence ranking even if they never make it past last sixteen/ last thirtytwo.
So the World ranking will nowhere be accurate to playing level anymore, 'cause who can seriously think that the ranking would define the playing level? Hard to imagine somebody would seriously want this!
[EMOJI6]


Someone told me that Timo has been injured for a long time and has always played injured, it's one of the hidden secrets of table tennis and a fact of life for many athletes, the degree it affects his play just changes based on how it affects his practice. In the end though, I think getting the best players to play more if they want to keep their rankings so a good thing. The only issue I have with it is whether the events play enough to support the increased participation as many players pay out of pocket to make these trips.

NDH
03-24-2017, 01:50 PM
In the UK we have a nation ranking system which ultimately rewards people the more they play.

The results in a few people who play a lot of ranking tournaments, being ranked much higher than those who only play in 1 or 2 per year.

If the new system only takes into account your best 8 tournaments in a year, I think it's a great system. It will give people a chance to move up the rankings, and it'll incentivise the young hungry players to play more.

At the end of the day, if the Ma Long's and FZD's of the world only play 8 tournaments, but come 1st and 2nd in each, they'll still be number 1 and 2.

Regarding tennis, the money aspect has been said already - But look at Federer.

He's come back after 12 months of not playing much and was ranked outside the top 10. He then went on to win the Australian Open and last week won Indian Wells, so is very quickly moving back up the rankings.

I don't see why it shouldn't be any different in Table Tennis. If you don't play - Why should your ranking be protected?

I love the old guys (Samsonov, Boll etc), but if the new ranking system gives more youngsters a chance, it's a great thing.

Suga D
03-24-2017, 01:58 PM
As I mentioned before, only the best 8 tournaments are considered (that is, the 8 highest amount of points earned in a tournament). Considering that every player usually competes in the Olympics, World Championships, European/African Championships.. those already count as 3 tournaments, whose points last for 4, 2 and 2 years respectively.

What does it mean? That having good results in those tournaments will still keep them with a good amount of points (they have a yearly reduction though). They would only need to play 5 more tournaments to opt for the maximum number of tournaments which count for the current ranking. In fact, that's exactly the amount of ITTF World Tour events that players must compete on to qualify for the ITTF Grand Finals.

Therefore, I would say that top players in a descending level could just participate in the main events and keep their ranking.
Even though this is true, i don´t think this new system is an improvement to the old system (Dear Mr. Saive, could you pls take over ASAP?) I´ve already explained why i think so, but i´m gonna give a more detailed explanation below.
Afaik Timo is already playing close to his limits and still is trying to find the right balance between his personal challenges and not hurting his body by overdoing practice and competition. He has been already focussing on the bigger events, and didn´t participate in the Pro Tour a lot lately. So i guess his few appearances won´t be enough to keep his ranking.
Certainly it´s a natural process, due to aging, but i think an international rating and Ranking system is mainly to be able to translate and compare playing Levels, which IMHO is less accurate with the new ranking system.


Someone told me that Timo has been injured for a long time and has always played injured, it's one of the hidden secrets of table tennis and a fact of life for many athletes, the degree it affects his play just changes based on how it affects his practice. In the end though, I think getting the best players to play more if they want to keep their rankings so a good thing. The only issue I have with it is whether the events play enough to support the increased participation as many players pay out of pocket to make these trips.

Increasing participation can ofc only be welcomed, but i think Timo´s already playing at his Limit, so before things start getting unhealthy he´ll most likely reduce his participations even more.
BTW: You have stated an excellent point. Players are sometimes already earning less in some tournaments than they are spending. So this definitely needs to change. So probably the whole marketing might have to change.

NDH
03-24-2017, 02:06 PM
Increasing participation can ofc only be welcomed, but i think Timo´s already playing at his Limit, so before things start getting unhealthy he´ll most likely reduce his participations even more.
BTW: You have stated an excellent point. Players are sometimes already earning less in some tournaments than they are spending. So this definitely needs to change. So probably the whole marketing might have to change.

Hey Suga D - I agree with your points regarding Timo (and all the other older players), but we shouldn't be nostalgic for the older guys - If Timo (or anyone else) can't play in the tournaments due to injury/age/managing their work load - Why should they be awarded a ranking based in historical performances?

They could still enter a tournament and win (like Federer in Australia), it's just that they wouldn't have the high ranking they have become accustomed to.

Suga D
03-24-2017, 02:13 PM
Hey Suga D - I agree with your points regarding Timo (and all the other older players), but we shouldn't be nostalgic for the older guys - If Timo (or anyone else) can't play in the tournaments due to injury/age/managing their work load - Why should they be awarded a ranking based in historical performances?

They could still enter a tournament and win (like Federer in Australia), it's just that they wouldn't have the high ranking they have become accustomed to.

That makes totally sense, but if a Ranking system doesn't express an international comparable Ranking what is the whole sense of an international Ranking system? I think it makes the Ranking ad absurdum or better worded this leads to an absurdity IMHO.

Xylit
03-24-2017, 02:21 PM
As I mentioned before, only the best 8 tournaments are considered (that is, the 8 highest amount of points earned in a tournament). Considering that every player usually competes in the Olympics, World Championships, European/African Championships.. those already count as 3 tournaments, whose points last for 4, 2 and 2 years respectively.

What does it mean? That having good results in those tournaments will still keep them with a good amount of points (they have a yearly reduction though). They would only need to play 5 more tournaments to opt for the maximum number of tournaments which count for the current ranking. In fact, that's exactly the amount of ITTF World Tour events that players must compete on to qualify for the ITTF Grand Finals.

Therefore, I would say that top players in a descending level could just participate in the main events and keep their ranking.
Regardless of what has been said already, zoomtt's explanation does not sound too bad for me. Not sure whether it is an improvement and a necessary change but it won't be as bad as predicted by some of you. And we should not only have a look at Timo Boll ;) I think it is fair to say that you should prove your world ranking from time to time. If you can't participate in a few big events every year then it is only fair if you are not ranked too high imo.

ttmonster
03-24-2017, 02:25 PM
I think its a change in philosophy and like any change its difficult to accept. We have to agree whether International Ranking should stand for "true playing level" or "the playing level displayed in the recent olympic level with emphasis to pro tours" . ITTF is trying to improve the quality of the current pro tours and want to push top players to participate. Any sport in today's day and age favors youth , thats the very nature of sports , the federers, the timos are exceptions. And you cannot / should not make up a system based on exception.

You can never absolutely measure true playing level, unless the person participates. How can you measure something as fleeting as form , if due to whatever reason you cannot get a recent evidence of that.

I might be the best table tennis player there is, but if I only play in my basement , I cannot expect ITTF to put me in the top of the international rankings , can I ?

Lets just say pacing oneself and protecting oneself is a different way to approach the sport , we could definitely ask that with the recent changes ITTF should introduce wild cards , I don't know if the concept is there in table tennis already to introduce such atheletes directly into the main draw .

That makes totally sense, but if a Ranking system doesn't express an international comparable Ranking what is the whole sense of an international Ranking system? I think it makes the Ranking ad absurdum or better worded this leads to an absurdity IMHO.

NDH
03-24-2017, 02:28 PM
That makes totally sense, but if a Ranking system doesn't express an international comparable Ranking what is the whole sense of an international Ranking system? I think it makes the Ranking ad absurdum or better worded this leads to an absurdity IMHO.

I think it comes down to how you look at the ranking system. Does it:

1. Show the true ranking of players "ability" worldwide?
2. Show the current "form" of players worldwide?

If Federer stops playing for 2 years, his "form" is likely to be very poor, and therefore he'll be "ranked" accordingly.

However, you could still argue that his ability is still very high, and on par with the top players - As shown in Australia recently.

So yes, there will be players who are arguably much better than their ranking (typically the older players who play less tournaments) - But as previously said.... They only need to play 8 to keep a decent ranking anyway.

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 02:36 PM
That makes totally sense, but if a Ranking system doesn't express an international comparable Ranking what is the whole sense of an international Ranking system? I think it makes the Ranking ad absurdum or better worded this leads to an absurdity IMHO.

I think that rewarding particpation is an important goal if building a professional tour is the goal.

Loopadoop
03-24-2017, 03:19 PM
I'm not sure I see the problem with this? Players who win more games should be ranked higher? Yes Ma Long is the best player in the world, but if he only plays two or three world tour comps every year, I'm not sure he's proving it? If someone is playing every tour event and playing consistently well, why shouldn't he be seen as one of the worlds best? He's proving it tournament after tournament.

If these big guns want to remain where they are, they need to play more games. That can only be a good thing?? If world ranking means that much to Timo Boll, he'll have to play some more games!! Not sure I see the issue with professional table tennis players being encouraged to play more games!?


Agree +1

The ranking should reflect the performance on the pro tour with a minimum participation requirement for validation.

Suga D
03-24-2017, 03:41 PM
Just like to add one thing though.

The ITTF wants to improve the value of their pro tour, but only very few players can win and earn so much to make a proper living, since there isn't as much cheddar in TT as it is in tennis. Only very few will be able to rely only on their prize money.
I don't know bout other countries, but in Germany the players get most of their loot from participation in TTBL not from ProTours. So in the end it will be the clubs who give TT-players most of their salary but get bent over and screwed, 'cause their players are either at a ProTour or recovering from injury that they got from ProTour participation.
Of course i've exaggerated a bit, but that's where this could lead to, 'cause less players could see a possible future for themselves trying to make a living from TT and only relying on ProTour prize money. I think the ITTF shouldn't put hassle to the clubs that give quite a few players an outcome with their income.

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 03:48 PM
Just like to add one thing though.

The ITTF wants to improve the value of their pro tour, but only very few players can win and earn so much to make a proper living, since there isn't as much cheddar in TT as it is in tennis. Only very few will be able to rely only on their prize money.
I don't know bout other countries, but in Germany the players get most of their loot from participation in TTBL not from ProTours. So in the end it will be the clubs who give TT-players most of their salary but get bent over and screwed, 'cause their players are either at a ProTour or recovering from injury that they got from ProTour participation.
Of course i've exaggerated a bit, but that's where this could lead to

I think this is where ITTF needs to think through working with the leagues to make this work. That said, growing the Pro Tour which is the visible international product should also be in the League's interests.

Suga D
03-24-2017, 04:00 PM
Here's my message to the ITTF and their chair T.Weikert:

12586

[Emoji12]

Of course you're right again. And maybe i just see all of this a bit too negative. I guess in the end we shall see.....

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 04:29 PM
Hey Suga D - I agree with your points regarding Timo (and all the other older players), but we shouldn't be nostalgic for the older guys - If Timo (or anyone else) can't play in the tournaments due to injury/age/managing their work load - Why should they be awarded a ranking based in historical performances?

They could still enter a tournament and win (like Federer in Australia), it's just that they wouldn't have the high ranking they have become accustomed to. One can actually debate, despite Timo's obvious ability, whether he would do as well without the seeding he gets from his ranking if he had to play tougher players earlier almost every time he had to enter a tournament.

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 04:31 PM
Here's my message to the ITTF and their chair T.Weikert:

12586

[Emoji12]

Of course you're right again. And maybe i just see all of this a bit too negative. I guess in the end we shall see.....

Your points are important and correct. And after all, this is from the same people who created that TTX. That says a lot.

NDH
03-24-2017, 04:35 PM
One can actually debate, despite Timo's obvious ability, whether he would do as well without the seeding he gets from his ranking if he had to play tougher players earlier almost every time he had to enter a tournament.

Absolutely, that was part of my point which wasn't emphasised, that supported the "legends" shouldn't have an easy ride argument.

Filip
03-24-2017, 04:38 PM
Timo just won a tournament organized in Germany, partly as a warm-up tournament for the WTTC. And he won 3-0 against Gauzy in the semi finals, and 3-0 against Ovtcharov in the finals, so he still has the level, also when his seeding would be different.

I don't think they should mak the ranking so dependent on participation, but yes, maybe a bit more then now. Also, you will not get any more points when you win against Ma Long or against i don't know, Franziska, when it is in the same round, only how far you get in the tournament matters. That is not good, I think

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 05:09 PM
Timo just won a tournament organized in Germany, partly as a warm-up tournament for the WTTC. And he won 3-0 against Gauzy in the semi finals, and 3-0 against Ovtcharov in the finals, so he still has the level, also when his seeding would be different.

I don't think they should mak the ranking so dependent on participation, but yes, maybe a bit more then now. Also, you will not get any more points when you win against Ma Long or against i don't know, Franziska, when it is in the same round, only how far you get in the tournament matters. That is not good, I think

Of course we know that Timo can do this. Would he consistently do this if he had to face Dima and Gauzy in round 1?

The latter is how the ATP works too and no one doubts that the best players are usually #1. Not all tournaments are ranked equal and if you see the list, you will see that Timo is not representative of what goes on in the list. He just doesn't play on the tour anymore.

Tony's Table Tennis
03-24-2017, 06:39 PM
I think it comes down to how you look at the ranking system. Does it:

1. Show the true ranking of players "ability" worldwide?
2. Show the current "form" of players worldwide?

If Federer stops playing for 2 years, his "form" is likely to be very poor, and therefore he'll be "ranked" accordingly.

However, you could still argue that his ability is still very high, and on par with the top players - As shown in Australia recently.

So yes, there will be players who are arguably much better than their ranking (typically the older players who play less tournaments) - But as previously said.... They only need to play 8 to keep a decent ranking anyway.

Seems like everyone here is focus on top 10 or top 50
ALready if you don't play ITTF matches in 4 months (if I am correct), you will be removed from the ranking.

We need to know there is 3 tiers (or more) of players who can actually take part in internationals

Tier 1 - your top 50 who has financial support to go to plenty of Internationals being fully funded
Tier 2 - half funded, and are limited to a handful of internationals a year
Tier 3 - self funded

When comes to WTTTC, ranking is key and for the other 90% of the countries that take parts, this will be chaos if all your Tier 2 and Tier 3 don't have ranking.

Seems like ITTF is moving over to "Tier 1" only with either ranking system

TTFrenzy
03-24-2017, 06:49 PM
Just like to add one thing though.

The ITTF wants to improve the value of their pro tour, but only very few players can win and earn so much to make a proper living, since there isn't as much cheddar in TT as it is in tennis. Only very few will be able to rely only on their prize money.
I don't know bout other countries, but in Germany the players get most of their loot from participation in TTBL not from ProTours. So in the end it will be the clubs who give TT-players most of their salary but get bent over and screwed, 'cause their players are either at a ProTour or recovering from injury that they got from ProTour participation.
Of course i've exaggerated a bit, but that's where this could lead to, 'cause less players could see a possible future for themselves trying to make a living from TT and only relying on ProTour prize money. I think the ITTF shouldn't put hassle to the clubs that give quite a few players an outcome with their income.

Does anyone know if ITTF is co-operating with hotels, food companies & transportation companies to lower the cost of participants in their pro tours?

It amazes me that they still have not fixed th ITTV product and they put their hands on something else

Sometimes I think they should experiment by creating an international league with the top 32 or 64 players and only one chinese will be allowed per team. It would definitely be more interesting than watching an uninterested chinese practicing against some random guy and maybe it will attract more sponsors.

Such a league will definitely attract people in sweden, belgium,france, russia ,germany and it can change the viewership and interest immensely.


I know it sounds crazy but in the 90's the german/french league were basically something similar

NextLevel
03-24-2017, 09:46 PM
Seems like everyone here is focus on top 10 or top 50
ALready if you don't play ITTF matches in 4 months (if I am correct), you will be removed from the ranking.

We need to know there is 3 tiers (or more) of players who can actually take part in internationals

Tier 1 - your top 50 who has financial support to go to plenty of Internationals being fully funded
Tier 2 - half funded, and are limited to a handful of internationals a year
Tier 3 - self funded

When comes to WTTTC, ranking is key and for the other 90% of the countries that take parts, this will be chaos if all your Tier 2 and Tier 3 don't have ranking.

Seems like ITTF is moving over to "Tier 1" only with either ranking system

The one thing people should realize is that Ratings Central exists and it is easy for anyone to get a player's relative strength using an ELO type system like Ratings Central. I think for official purposes, not focusing on players strength and trying to get something that encourages tour activity is a step in the right direction. However, as Tony pointed out, we might have some players that don't play often for reasons other than injury (like finances) getting marginalized. But the North Koreans already exist anyways.

I think that if they can find a way to create more money at the top, it might filter down to the bottom over time. That is what happened with Tennis, though on the other hand, what creates more money at the top is in part more money at the bottom (more fans viewing and paying to be nationals association members).

ttpshot
03-24-2017, 11:47 PM
It's bit of the chicken/egg problem. Currently, most players are keen to participate as little PTs as possible to keep their rankings. It's partly because PT have smaller money than pro leagues, less profile than WTTCs and olympics. By having more importance on participating in the PT, it'll hopefully attract more players and raising profile and the prize money in the long run. I'm not sure if that's the right direction because unlike tennis, WTTC and team matches are a lot more popular. But I like the fact ITTF is trying to move forward and I can clearly see their intent.

As for "rankings should reflect true strength of the player" argument. We have been fine with top 50 rankings not filled with Chinese players(seriously, more than half of women's top 100 rankings will be Chinese) for ages, I think we'll also be fine this time around. A player I see advancing the PT the most and often, gets higher rankings is clear enough for me.

Tony's Table Tennis
03-25-2017, 12:11 AM
It's bit of the chicken/egg problem. Currently, most players are keen to participate as little PTs as possible to keep their rankings. It's partly because PT have smaller money than pro leagues, less profile than WTTCs and olympics. By having more importance on participating in the PT, it'll hopefully attract more players and raising profile and the prize money in the long run. I'm not sure if that's the right direction because unlike tennis, WTTC and team matches are a lot more popular. But I like the fact ITTF is trying to move forward and I can clearly see their intent.

As for "rankings should reflect true strength of the player" argument. We have been fine with top 50 rankings not filled with Chinese players(seriously, more than half of women's top 100 rankings will be Chinese) for ages, I think we'll also be fine this time around. A player I see advancing the PT the most and often, gets higher rankings is clear enough for me.

I think ITTF wants to take full control of TT, but then again, WT (not PT anymore) is half ITTF, and half the local organising committee.

Now, what is bigger audience
League, or World Cup?

The problem is most local organising committee and ITTF are not able to get in audiences compared to what some clubs can get in. and ITTF can't all of a sudden get so much cash injection for prize money for 90% of the participants to even get something worthwhile.

With what ITTF is doing, we can compare with FIFA vs Champions League, FIBA vs NBA, Golf, WTA, etc.
Does Tennis have a league structure for the pros? i'm not sure, but i don't think there is. So being Pro, is just WTA?

Now TT has league and WT
Then there is "training" and non WT tournaments, like development/social programs etc.

Its already a very busy schedule to be a TT athlete - there is no time for holiday.
With the force rules of competing, would imo further strain the players more:
- to make a living (league)
- to do development/promotion/upliftments
- to train, adjust technique, improve
- injury time/recovery
- world tours or else get low ranking - which will jeoardise world teams, world event and olympic qualifications etc
the last part is where it will hurt the most

Suga D
03-25-2017, 02:26 AM
I've read your post with mixed feelings.

Timo just won a tournament organized in Germany, partly as a warm-up tournament for the WTTC. And he won 3-0 against Gauzy in the semi finals, and 3-0 against Ovtcharov in the finals, so he still has the level, also when his seeding would be different.

Well you must be talking of the "New Horizon" masters, which is the follow up to the "Energis" Masters, an invitational, non-ITTF sanctioned exhibition tournament.
Certainly nobody wants to loose purposely, but pros rather see this like e.g. a friendly match between Football National Teams where teams are allowed to have 6 substitutes instead of 3 like usual. It's where coaches are experimenting tactically or try out new players.
Just one point: last year Dima was caught playing there with Bluefire rubbers, and just a few weeks later and also a few weeks before he was seen using his t05 as usual at a ProTour tournament. So that should tell you how serious pros see this tournament and how much weight we can put on these results. Maybe it was good for Timo's mentality having won against Dima and Gauzy though.
But it's said that this tournament has a nice relaxed vibe.
[Emoji6]
Nevertheless i still upvoted your post, mainly because of this part right here:


I don't think they should mak the ranking so dependent on participation, but yes, maybe a bit more then now. Also, you will not get any more points when you win against Ma Long or against i don't know, Franziska, when it is in the same round, only how far you get in the tournament matters. That is not good, I think

An interesting point you raise there and probably another reason why i don't like this new rating system.
Let's say Benedikt Duda would make it past group stage and as a qualifier then in the first round of k.o. stage would face a topseeded player like Xu Xin as seed No#3 for example. Now imagine he would catch XX off balance and would manage to win against him, just to face Simon Gauzy in the second round and Gauzy has another one of his brilliant days and knocks Duda off the table in the second round.

Now with today's rating Duda would still get some points for winning over XX.

But with the new rating he would get zilch plus a free handshake.

Probably i also don't like this new system, 'cause i don't think it's very fair. Or at least it's not more fair than the recent system IMHO.

Suga D
03-26-2017, 11:25 AM
One last statement from my side:

Dear ITTF, there is a reason that there are sayings like:
Never change a running system!
and
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Maybe think about this for a minute!

edgy
03-26-2017, 11:30 PM
Dima is just mad that WCT is ahead of him at no. 4 in the new rankings

UpSideDownCarl
03-27-2017, 03:48 PM
It would be nice to see the two rating systems work side by side for a few months to see a comparison.

I don't have much to say about the proposed system. I feel like you guys have done a decent job of examining some of the pros and cons of each system.

There is something I do remember that made me question the validity of the current system. Back in 2010 when Ma Long was injured and Timo Boll slid sideways into the top spot it seemed totally off to me. I think Timo was there for a couple of months. But he was injured too. He went into the WR #1 slot by not losing points rather than by winning points. I remember at the time it made me question how the system was set up. It basically was an issue of him not yet losing points for inactivity. But he didn't win anything. If you look at his results in tournaments at that time, when he played, he was consistently placing in the top 4. But never winning the tournaments he entered outright.

So, I may not be sure about the new system. And I think TT is between a rock and a hard place in terms of how much prize money pros can receive from entering tournaments. But I have felt for a while that there are some problems with the current system. Perhaps not big problems. But the current system seems to me to be at least partially broken.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Suga D
03-27-2017, 07:40 PM
It would be nice to see the two rating systems work side by side for a few months to see a comparison.

As OP wrote, this is actually already happening, 'cause the new system won't start before january 2018. The list with the new rating system can be viewed here.
http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/
whereas the old one is still active and can be viewed here.
http://www.old.ittf.com/ittf_ranking/



I don't have much to say about the proposed system. I feel like you guys have done a decent job of examining some of the pros and cons of each system.

There is something I do remember that made me question the validity of the current system. Back in 2010 when Ma Long was injured and Timo Boll slid sideways into the top spot it seemed totally off to me. I think Timo was there for a couple of months. But he was injured too. He went into the WR #1 slot by not losing points rather than by winning points. I remember at the time it made me question how the system was set up. It basically was an issue of him not yet losing points for inactivity. But he didn't win anything. If you look at his results in tournaments at that time, when he played, he was consistently placing in the top 4. But never winning the tournaments he entered outright.

So, I may not be sure about the new system. And I think TT is between a rock and a hard place in terms of how much prize money pros can receive from entering tournaments. But I have felt for a while that there are some problems with the current system. Perhaps not big problems. But the current system seems to me to be at least partially broken.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

That might even be right, but interestingly all of a sudden everyone seems to be open for ITTF's arbitrary changes and is even totally cool with their BS.
From older threads about ITTF and their experiments and people's Statements about that i've gotten a different impression.
But as i said: maybe I just see this all too negative. Time will tell.

UpSideDownCarl
03-28-2017, 03:27 AM
As OP wrote, this is actually already happening, 'cause the new system won't start before january 2018. The list with the new rating system can be viewed here.
http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/
whereas the old one is still active and can be viewed here.
http://www.old.ittf.com/ittf_ranking/



That might even be right, but interestingly all of a sudden everyone seems to be open for ITTF's arbitrary changes and is even totally cool with their BS.
From older threads about ITTF and their experiments and people's Statements about that i've gotten a different impression.
But as i said: maybe I just see this all too negative. Time will tell.

No, I think you have a great point about what buffoons the ITTF are. I totally agree. I just also think the current rating system started out a little bit off kilter. I don't know what to do to fix it. Perhaps it shouldn't be fixed at all. But, I am not so sure the current system actually does what it is supposed to. Will the new system? Well, if ITTF is involved in trying to "fix" it, probably not. hahaha. But....This may be something that they should try to tinker with.

The first thing to do would be to run all the ITTF big whigs out and get new blood in there.

And I am still waiting for yellow Poly balls. :)

NextLevel
03-28-2017, 04:30 AM
http://www.ittf.com/2017/03/27/new-world-ranking-scheme-effective-january-2018/

“One of our main goals is to massively increase the prize money at the ITTF, to also ensure that the top table tennis players are “stars” on the international scene and at the same time to improve the quality of events.
To achieve this, we need to prove to our partners (media and sponsors) and our fans that our events are the best and most important. For them to be the most important, we need best players playing at the events. Our tools need to support that.
At the moment one of our most important tools the “World Ranking” does not support it in the best way, so it was very important to address that. Of course change is not always easy, but if we want our products to become more professional then this is one important change to make.” – Steve Dainton, ITTF Marketing and Commercial Director

zoomtt
03-31-2017, 02:48 PM
We are currently working on a article to analyze the new ranking system.

It seems that there is a problem with the new ranking test website, as there are some players with wrong ranking calculation. Don't trust that much the current status as it will change when the issue is fixed.. a couple of examples of overrated players are Hung Chieh-Chiang or Cristian Pletea.

Anyway, an important thing here is only the BEST 8 results you have are the ones that count for your ranking. That means that, at some point, playing more championships won't make your results improve, but only improve the positions you had in the previous ones.

As promised, here you have our latest article about the new World Ranking:

https://zoomtt.com/2017/03/31/new-wr-big-changes-bigger-challenges/

as you can read, the ranking seems to predict results a bit worse than the current one. However, that's not the purpose of it...

John18
03-31-2017, 03:18 PM
Wow!!!
Thanks!!
Very complete and informative article..!! :D

But wow!!
So with the new WR, for example, Fang Bo will be #23 , Timo Boll # 43
and Cheng I-Ching #2 , Liu Shiwen #6 , Wu Yang #56..!! :eek:

It's in the article but the new WR as it will be if used now:

http://dr.ittf.com/ittf_ranking_2018/

Baal
03-31-2017, 04:32 PM
as you can read, the ranking seems to predict results a bit worse than the current one. However, that's not the purpose of it...

Very interesting. I had never thought about how well rankings predict results, but if not that, what is their purpose? That is not a rhetorical question, I actually wonder what the true purpose of a ranking is. I had never really thought about it before.

I think that players should have to maintain a pretty reasonable amount of tournament activity to maintain their ranking, but I have no idea what amount that should be.

NextLevel
03-31-2017, 05:11 PM
Very interesting. I had never thought about how well rankings predict results, but if not that, what is their purpose? That is not a rhetorical question, I actually wonder what the true purpose of a ranking is. I had never really thought about it before.

I think that players should have to maintain a pretty reasonable amount of tournament activity to maintain their ranking, but I have no idea what amount that should be.

I don't think rankings are supposed to predict results. Rankings should reward performance. I for one have no problem seeing Timo Bollinger drop to #44 or so in the rankings or Zhang Jike fall lower. It is part of making the tour a quality product.

That said, sugard pointed out the differences between TT culture and other sports. The bottom line is that ITTF has to deliver massively on higher price money to make it work.

ttpshot
04-01-2017, 04:06 AM
Comparing the current and the new rankings system is good for a reference purpose but not so for the effectiveness because players WILL adjust to the new system for the seeding purpose.
Current system is quite poor anyway. As stated in the article, bigger challenge is definitely with making PT more attractive.

loss
04-01-2017, 02:21 PM
more injured