European Loop vs Chinese Loop?

[Suga D]

I used to have a straight(ish) arm forehand, using a low throw euro-jap rubber (Calibra tour M). Then, for about 4 months I focused my practice on my backhand, mostly playing shots with a lot of wrist involved, very close or over the table. This messed up my timing for the forehand, and being very close to the table (and 1m86 tall) I developed an ugly, bent arm half motion forehand, which is good for nothing (no spin, no power).

I consciously tried to go back to my full arm swing, and as Baal predicted I failed miserably... So I made the change to a chinese rubber, a Friendship/729 Super FX, thinking that it would force my forehand motion to change.

So far it's not really working, which is frustrating, but I'll keep practising and see what happens...

What helped me was multiball and robot

 

[NextLevel]

Personally, I use both bent arm and straight arm and I believe both have their place and that there is nothing wrong with either one. If you only have the bent arm, it is harder to play choppers and if you only have the straight arm, it is harder to counter topspin close to the table. Ma Long, Zhang Jike and Timo Boll use both (watch Timo play a chopper if you doubt me) and so should everyone, IMO.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

FZD does a lot of FH counter loops with just a quick whipping of the forearm in a very short stroke. He also takes some pretty big swings with his whole arm.

If you watch slow motion of Ma Long's FH, his elbow starts bending right about when he contacts the ball. The timing is exquisite.

Wang Hao, when he loops, his elbow usually doesn't not end up more bent than it started.

Which one is the Chinese loop again?


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[GiorgosTT]

FZD does a lot of FH counter loops with just a quick whipping of the forearm in a very short stroke. He also takes some pretty big swings with his whole arm.



If you watch slow motion of Ma Long's FH, his elbow starts bending right about when he contacts the ball. The timing is exquisite.



Wang Hao, when he loops, his elbow usually doesn't not end up more bent than it started.



Which one is the Chinese loop again?

Personally, I use both bent arm and straight arm and I believe both have their place and that there is nothing wrong with either one. If you only have the bent arm, it is harder to play choppers and if you only have the straight arm, it is harder to counter topspin close to the table. Ma Long, Zhang Jike and Timo Boll use both (watch Timo play a chopper if you doubt me) and so should everyone, IMO.

I will have to disagree with you. But first, I was curious as what Timo does when playing a chopper. Very conveniently, someone posted this match in another thread.

It is clear that Timo's hand is never straight, even when playing a chopper. In comparison, here is Ma Long doing multiball lifting underspin balls. (I am using Timo Boll and Ma Long because I think they are the perfect representatives of each style)

You can see that Ma Long's arm is straight at the beginning and bends at contact point. Furthermore, ML uses his waist to generate rotating power, whereas TB is leaning back and using his legs to lift his body upwards (I suck at describing body motions, I hope that makes some sense...).



My understanding of the differences between the so called Chinese (straight arm, full motion) forehand spin, and the European (bent arm, half motion, you get it) is this:

• Chinese style, the arm in the beginning of the motion is almost straight, contact is a little further from the body and the motion ends with the bat almost over the head. Also the motion starts lower, behind the right knee, almost at the back. It is important to note that the use of the wrist is minimal or none.
• European style, the arm starts bent, contact is closer to the body, and the motion ends with the bat in front of the face, or lower. The motion starts above the right knee and a lot of wrist is used at contact, in a whipping action to generate a lot of spin.

So I don't think that players use both, they have one basic style and there are variation depending on the circumstances. Fan Zhedong and Timo Boll can both counterloop over the table, but their motion is very different even then. Notice how FZD squats and uses his forearm, blade finishes over his head, shoulder almost touching his ear, and TB is very comfortably whipping his wrist and end the motion in front of his chest.



I could go on about differences in other situations, Wang Liqin doing helicopter forehand with his arm straight throughout the motion, Xu Xin doing beautiful FH spins from down low but I think I've made my point.



Edit: Just wanted to add, answering to Carl, that FZD, ML, WH, with their distinctive style, they are all doing the 'Chinese' loop. The similarities are more than there are differences, compared to Timo, Freitas and even Mizutani who are all doing the 'European' loop.

 

[NextLevel]

I will have to disagree with you. But first, I was curious as what Timo does when playing a chopper. Very conveniently, someone posted this match in another thread.

IF you can't see that Timo's arm is straighter on the backswing than it is when he is looping during regular matches, then there is nothing to discuss. If you see Ma Long counterlooping with a straight arm, let me know.

Many people make it an issue of having a completely straight arm but many Chinese players don't loop with a perfectly straight arm on all their strokes (think Hao Shuai or Yan An) and while Timo Boll always loops with a bent arm, his arm straightens out on the backswing when looping chop to get more snap. Timo Boll is also fairly unique amongst European players with an inimitable looping style so making him representative of anything is fairly misguided. Schlager and Kreanga often loop with pretty straight arm motions and neither of them would be mistaken for having a Chinese loop.

What distinguishes many Chinese players is that they are taught to throw their full weight into the looping motion from an early age and this is aided by the hard sponged Chinese rubber that many of them use. IT's not easy to loop that way with say Tenergy 05.

 

[Baal]

Thought for the day, for people thinking about their arm.

From The Unfettered Mind (written by Takuan Soho, a zen monk, written for a samurai swordsman, hundreds of years ago)

Where to put the mind?


I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your
body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye,
and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your
mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning.
"No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will
lack its functioning."
"Well, then, where does one put his mind."
I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend
throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's
function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your
eye, it will realize the eye's function.

 

[Shuki]

Thought for the day, for people thinking about their arm.

From The Unfettered Mind (written by Takuan Soho, a zen monk, written for a samurai swordsman, hundreds of years ago)

Where to put the mind?


I answered, "If you put it in your right hand, it will be taken by the right hand and your
body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in the eye, it will be taken by the eye,
and your body will lack its functioning. If you put your mind in your right foot, your
mind will be taken by the right foot and your body will lack its functioning.
"No matter where you put it, if you put the mind in on place, the rest of your body will
lack its functioning."
"Well, then, where does one put his mind."
I answered, "If you don't put it anywhere, it will go to all parts of your body and extend
throughout its entirety. In this way, when it enters your hand, it will realize the hand's
function. When it enters your foot, it will realize the foot's function. When it enters your
eye, it will realize the eye's function.

Very good. when focusing on form in games a lot of people have this issue. thinking of doing the right stroke causes them to not have footwork or other various problems.

The thing is you have to focus on one of these at a time when learning otherwise it will never become muscle memory for you to be able to use each part correctly.

 

[Nikoli]

I used to have a straight(ish) arm forehand, using a low throw euro-jap rubber (Calibra tour M). Then, for about 4 months I focused my practice on my backhand, mostly playing shots with a lot of wrist involved, very close or over the table. This messed up my timing for the forehand, and being very close to the table (and 1m86 tall) I developed an ugly, bent arm half motion forehand, which is good for nothing (no spin, no power).

I consciously tried to go back to my full arm swing, and as Baal predicted I failed miserably... So I made the change to a chinese rubber, a Friendship/729 Super FX, thinking that it would force my forehand motion to change.

So far it's not really working, which is frustrating, but I'll keep practising and see what happens...

I think you should check out Hao Shoai's forehand. It doesn't have to be a full swing to attain more power and spin.

Since you're quite tall, it's best to practice lots of alternate shots connecting your BH and FH. When doin' lots of this drill, you can determine the right distance of yourself to the table.

I once struggle very much with this exercise, because i can't straighten my arm when doing forehand loop after a back hand loop or counter hit. So it's important to bear this in mind "move closed to the ball for BH shots and move away from the ball when doing FH shots". For FH loops, please remember to open your open your foot (toes point to the right side - for right hander), this will automatically get you ready for the shot and measuring distance for your shot).

If you find yourself hitting the ball closed to your body, try extending your left arm pretend to reach for the ball, but actually use it to measure distance of the incoming ball for your shot. (refer to Malong's left arms), you will see a lot of this.

By the way, why don't you show us your video, maybe we all can learn something out of it?

 

[guitch]

OK . . . from my experience:

nothing to do with arm and technique etc... but the intensity you play the ball.

I mean, with Chinese rubber you need to play each stroke at 100% or have a proper acceleration action on the ball. I've also noticed that when hitting hard in topspin in the rubber the angle will be lower.

With Europe rubber you can manage to play with lite action on the ball, it is more permissive .

This is the feeling I got.

 

[brabhamista]

It's Friday night and I've had a beer or two or three and tonight I feel wreckless and stupid enough to attempt to put out fire with gasoline.

If anyone wants to call these loop actions something, just call them straight or bent arm swings or at least something related to arm mechanics.

Calling it a "Chinese loop" is bordering on silliness. To do that you need to completely ignore the historical point of view. Have a look at the Chinese players during the 90's and you'll see a bunch of guys using the other misnomer the so called "Euro loop". Ma Wenge, Liu Guozheng, Wang Tao and even the young Wang Liqin played "Euro style" back then. Actually, EVERYBODY did.

OK, I'm exaggerating. Not everybody. The only guys using the "Chinese loop" back then were the Korean penholders who straight arm swang left, right and centre. Renaming it the "Korean loop" would be better, but still pretty idiotic.

Geography has nothing to do with it, but arm mechanics do.
The Chinese loop is dead! Long live the straight arm loop!
Happy Friday evening

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I like the Brazilian loop better than the Chinese loop and I like the Brazilian thong better than the loop.

I thought about it, but....for this one, I will not post a photo.

 

[NextLevel]

Here is a bent arm CNT player for people who are still stuck on Chinese players straightening out their arms. I could post video of Shang Kun or Hao Shuai.

 

[NextLevel]

What you will find is that no player loops in exactly one way nor any country or continent - everyone has a technique they have optimized based on their background, equipment, coaching and personal preferences to adjust to the incoming ball.

 

[GiorgosTT]

Ok, lots of comments I would like to make. Let's take it from the beginning...

NextLevel, I think you missed my point. Yes, maybe Timo opens the angle of his arm a bit more when playing a chopper, and of course Ma Long doesn't counterloop over the table with a straight arm. My point is that the technique is different, the mechanics of it are different so in similar situation they will execute the shot differently. I think it is a different philosophy behind the shot, and the straight arm vs bent arm is just one of the variables. As you say yourself it is also the full weight thrown in the looping motion, the perfect footwork to always be in position to execute, the hard Chinese rubbers, and the mentality to attack and finish the point as soon as possible (and maybe a bunch of other details I can't think of). So, you either do one or the other, I don't think you, or any of the top players have both styles, they have one and adapt accordingly.

Since you're quite tall, it's best to practice lots of alternate shots connecting your BH and FH. When doin' lots of this drill, you can determine the right distance of yourself to the table.

I once struggle very much with this exercise, because i can't straighten my arm when doing forehand loop after a back hand loop or counter hit. So it's important to bear this in mind "move closed to the ball for BH shots and move away from the ball when doing FH shots". For FH loops, please remember to open your open your foot (toes point to the right side - for right hander), this will automatically get you ready for the shot and measuring distance for your shot).

If you find yourself hitting the ball closed to your body, try extending your left arm pretend to reach for the ball, but actually use it to measure distance of the incoming ball for your shot. (refer to Malong's left arms), you will see a lot of this.

Nikoli, I find your points excellent. Being advised to open my foot was the thing that unlocked my FH when I was a complete beginner (I consider myself advanced beginner or something like that ). The "reaching for the ball with the left hand" worked for me when playing tennis, haven't tried it in table tennis but I think I might try it!

Unfortunately, it's not easy to record myself playing. I do have a video from almost a year back though. Mind that I think my motion is even worse now... (I'm the guy on the left)

I will try to record a practice soon and I will share.


Carl, I'm disappointed from the lack of photos in your post!

 

[GiorgosTT]

Brabhamista, I agree with you but it's easier calling them Chinese and European. Ok, "Korean loop" makes sense (or doesn't make sense in the same way that "Chinese loop" do). Straight arm and bent arm loop as terms have their own problems, since not even Ma Long counter loops with a straight arm as NextLevel pointed out.

This for me is the perfect example of a "Chinese", "straight arm", "full swing", whatever each one wants to call it, Fh loop!

http://blog.uberpong.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Slow-motion-ping-pong-shot.gif

 

[NextLevel]

Ok, lots of comments I would like to make. Let's take it from the beginning...

NextLevel, I think you missed my point. Yes, maybe Timo opens the angle of his arm a bit more when playing a chopper, and of course Ma Long doesn't counterloop over the table with a straight arm. My point is that the technique is different, the mechanics of it are different so in similar situation they will execute the shot differently. I think it is a different philosophy behind the shot, and the straight arm vs bent arm is just one of the variables. As you say yourself it is also the full weight thrown in the looping motion, the perfect footwork to always be in position to execute, the hard Chinese rubbers, and the mentality to attack and finish the point as soon as possible (and maybe a bunch of other details I can't think of). So, you either do one or the other, I don't think you, or any of the top players have both styles, they have one and adapt accordingly.

I agree with you, but the mechanics are different not because of Chinese vs European, but because of the nature of many things about the player. Timo also straightens his arm out more ( not just open his paddle). You can see that he is looking for more leverage on the chopped balls. Timo does not straighten his arm as much on a variety of other balls. Timo has a different grip from most players so that grip also influences how he topspins.

The thing is that a looping style is tied to your fundamental nature as a player, because you can't change equipment during a match, nor can you change your years of training. Every equipment has its contact depth for hitting a particular kind of shot and that will influence how the player uses it. As someone who can switch between Hurricane and Tenergy (at great pain to my shoulder, but that is not the point), I know what I am talking about, and I cannot hit with the same contact depth with Tenergy that I do with Chinese rubber, unless I have the Tenergy on a much harder blade and even then, I will have other issues.

In the end, everyone is trying to generate racket head speed and the right contact depth to consistently and powerfully apply their style. IT is easy to miss this by focusing on the nature of the loop, but I can say that for most people, it is actually easier and technically better to learn to loop like Zhang Jike rather than Timo Boll and likely easier to loop like Jun Mizutani than Timo Boll (Timo Boll is a specially difficult animal that people superficially confuse with others).

 

[NextLevel]

This is an excellent series that might help some people a lot:

http://butterflyonline.com/weight-transfer-and-using-your-legs/
http://butterflyonline.com/following-through/
http://butterflyonline.com/modern-topspin-strokes/

 

[Der_Echte]

My coach is from China. He has been in the US for about 1 year. He has NEVER mentioned Chinese loop or European Loop. He teaches what Bret Clarke calls the golden elbow. I am sure he was taught that over in the Chinese TT academy.

I have said this on other forums. It makes know difference what the stroke is. All that matters is the speed, direction and attitude of the paddle when it hits the ball. Everything before or after is irrelevant to the balls flight path. Having the correct stroke promotes consistency and minimizes recovery time.

I don't know why people persist with this Chinese/Euro loop non-sense.


Yes I know but power is what I generate to move me. When i hit the ball the ball has kinetic energy. Kinetic energy in the form of rotational and translational. I generate more power on every stroke because I weigh more than the average person. Power = mass*acceleration*velocity. If I make contact with the ball at the same speed as a lighter person the ball will travel the same way all things being equal except I will need to generate much more power to do the same thing.

The most important thing is paddle speed if you want to transfer a lot of energy to the ball.

Pnchy, I waz with you when you were talking about Euro vs Chinese being basically nothing to worry oneself about, and I was with you when you talk about swing plane and impact being important...

I was even with you when you discuss kinetic energy, because it is real... and applicable and really key in power transfer in a swing...

... but when you said you can make the ball go faster, (ball is same mass and if you make it more powerful it is faster as ball's mass is constant for all of us) 'cause you are bigger by a goodly amount... I gotta say someone filled Ur gills with propaganda after the last time you jumped off or got bumped off the Brooklyn Bridge for LULZ. (and displaced 1/2 the native fish population within 1/2 mile of impact that survived the last toxic chemical release into the river)

My last tourney I saw a 10 yr old 65 lb (30 KG !!!) girl hit the ball on a FH drive ALMOST as fast as my BH power hit, which is faster than many players' FH smash shots. You got that girl out massed by at LEAST a factor of 4 or moar... so you should hit 4 times harder. I bet lunch the rest of the year that girl hits more powerful than you do with a 10 kph tailwind.

There are a LOT more factors that go into the resulting ball than just bat speed, its acceleration before impact and the mass of ur body/blade/ball...

Grip pressure at impact, type of impact (how hard and where hit on ball and how sustained throughout impact) at impact moment, acceleration of bat during dwell, and how dynamic your topsheet and sponge are seriously affect the outcome. Any pro will tell you at once whether a setup will make the ball "go" off the bat or not the first hit or two, takes 2-3 strokes for them to confirm. Nexy president tried to slip in a couple slower setups on Kim Jung Hoon when he tossed him a few prototypes of Peter Pan (for him to base off of for his namesake KJH blade) and KJH could spot them within 5 seconds.

 

[Pnachtwey]

I see the Rajah had time to make another post. He still hasn't figured out what hurt his head. It wasn't me talking about paddle behavior.

... but when you said you can make the ball go faster, (ball is same mass and if you make it more powerful it is faster as ball's mass is constant for all of us) 'cause you are bigger by a goodly amount...

Where did I say that? Find the quote. I am bigger but I have always said it is paddle speed that matters. In my case Rajah is right, I should lose weight to increase speed and acceleration.

I gotta say someone filled Ur gills with propaganda after the last time you jumped off or got bumped off the Brooklyn Bridge for LULZ. (and displaced 1/2 the native fish population within 1/2 mile of impact that survived the last toxic chemical release into the river)
[/quite]
More fairy tales. I can see someone found the tension fairy on another thread.

There are a LOT more factors that go into the resulting ball than just bat speed,

I have posted links to the speed after impact formula so many times I am tired of it. Look it up.

its acceleration before impact and the mass of ur body/blade/ball...

Well duh, that is how you get paddle speed but accelerating at impact means full paddle speed hasn't been reached yet and the follow through will be much longer than necessary therefore hurting recovery time. If acceleration is at the time of contact is so important then what happens if you swing very late? The paddle will be accelerating but the paddle isn't moving much yet.

Grip pressure at impact, type of impact (how hard and where hit on ball and how sustained throughout impact) at impact moment, acceleration of bat during dwell, and how dynamic your topsheet and sponge are seriously affect the outcome.

yes,yes,myth,yes. The yes parts can be part of the COR or mass of the paddle if the grip is tight.
The acceleration during impact isn't really a myth. It can and does happen. However to say it is beneficial is a myth. I know there will be a dozen people saying it increase dwell time. For what purpose and for how long?

Any pro will tell you at once whether a setup will make the ball "go" off the bat or not the first hit or two, takes 2-3 strokes for them to confirm. Nexy president tried to slip in a couple slower setups on Kim Jung Hoon when he tossed him a few prototypes of Peter Pan (for him to base off of for his namesake KJH blade) and KJH could spot them within 5 seconds.

This doesn't surprise me at all that one can tell the difference between a paddle one uses all the time and another strange paddle. So what is the point? Don't tell me the pros are calibrated instruments.
Don't get me started on that. I will reference the dwell time and acceleration through the ball myths.

I really wish you guys would find the quote instead of accusing me of saying things I never said.
I feel like I am always being accused of being medieval heretic for pointing out the world is round and not at the center of the universe.

I don't see what either Rajah's or your posts have to do with CN or EU loops. I think you guys just want to start another argument. If so start another thread and let this stupid EU, CN, ET loop nonsense die. Start another thread about accelerating during dwell time if you dare.

 

[Der_Echte]

In before someone re-post's Werner Schlager's speech about serves from hiz decade or so old training vid where he tells us that to make spin, one must catch the ball and accelerate while it is on bat to make spin. He clearly states it isn't about fast bat speed, but a very rapid acceleration at the right moment with the right touch.