table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

[NextLevel]

Carl, thanks for the kinds words, but you are making me sound like Superman. I am still a 2050-2150 player when all is said and done. Footwork problematic, strokes off balance, ball quality unquestioned. Musaab's coach is likely 2300 or thereabouts which is definitely well above my level. EmratThich is probably at that level as well and those guys tend to have great movement and also generate spin and balls similar to mine. Musaab's main point was in response to a post I deleted where I thought I might be 1900 in France but I realized that I do not know the French rating system so it makes no sense to claim that. For all I know, I might be really 1500 because I do not understand the French rating system. And the girls are good players, so it is always possible to lose to good players.

I know my personal feeling but there is no point discussing them seriously. I am personally liking ERT more and more as he shares a bit more about his background so that more things can be understood in context. I must admit though that Musaab cracked me up when he said that I didn't have a backhand. That is the second time I have ever heard that, the first time being from another European player at Mytt who dislikes my posts as well. Now if he had said that I didn't have a forehand, that would have made much more sense to me.

 

[SchemeSC]

I like EmRatThich more now as a person as well. He has at least attempted to respond to the criticism and be transparent. That means alot to me.

The fact of the matter is that I'm never going to like a Youtube coaching channel where 99 percent of the material has already been seen on the Internet before. Never.

I'm never going to like a channel that markets its material as "Chinese Secrets". Never.

I'm never going to like a channel that claims to be targeted at beginners, when I know from a personal experience that it can be harmful for beginners without proper context. Never.

There is nothing anyone can do or say to change my mind about that. If that makes me a "hater", then so be it. I'm a hater.

EmRatThich seems like a decent guy, but IN MY OPINION his channel freaking sucks. I also understand that there's lots of people that like his channel, and that's great, too.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

And I think we all can agree that EmRatThich's bio was all that was being asked for and sounds pretty complete and pretty honest.

Comparing high level players from China with low level players from Europe may not be fair. Comparing high level coaches from China with low level coaches from Europe also would not be fair.

There are bad coaches everywhere. Coaches who are content to run players through simple block drills that make it look like and seem the student is getting better without any noticeable improvement in game skillz. And then there are the real coaches who legitimately help their students improve. There may not be as many of these in the west. But they do exist. If you are an educated consumer you can find them. And it is not simply information that comes from one region of the world.

High level coaching is always good stuff. Poor quality coaching is unfortunate and much of it is based on a coach trying to make money in a capitalist system. So: it is unfortunate.

It is also true that a player who is not at a very high level can still be an excellent coach and that, sometimes, a player who is at a very high level who may understand certain high level concepts better, may not be as good at getting the students to improve. So he may not be such a great coach even though he is a pretty high level player.

I do not coach table tennis. Nor will I ever. It is absolutely not my interest. However, I do teach something else that is related to body, movement, biomechanics and functional/dysfunctional moment patterns. And my experience is that when working with a person, the theories and methods for helping the person understand what they are trying to achieve go hand in hand with the practice. However, the words and theories should also be separated from the practice. What do I mean? When you are working on a movement skill with someone, too much talk and theory can and will mess up the process. The reason is the person will need to do the action without too much thinking. So the theory should be presented for understanding before and/or after but not too much during the practice. Comments for help during practice should be more on the lines of simple directions correcting technique.

But before and/or after practice, a person working on developing a movement skill having theory to help understand what he/she is trying to achieve can be quite helpful. So can analysis of video footage. Since most of us imagine what we are doing to be quite different than what it actually is most of the time.

I still assert that all the nuts and bolts information that EmRatThich has presented is solid and never had a question about the techniques presented. Just the comparison of good coaching with bad. And only associating good with China and bad with everywhere else.

But his bio was nice to read and well worth posting. Good stuff.

And one video that has helped me understand more about how to improve in table tennis than anything else is posted below. The video is not about table tennis in particular. But if you understand the concepts, it is about sports training in general and is hugely useful in table tennis training:

That video is worth watching a few times and seeing if you can figure out how to apply the theories to table tennis.


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[NextLevel]

And all this gives him the right to be discrediting and belittleling other people's work?
I certainly don't think so

It's okay to mix up your personal issues with me with other things to buttress your opinions but let's get a few things straight when dealing with facts.

My first post contains my criticism of ERT (I will either call him EmRatThich or ERT going forward). The focus was on Chinese secrets and whether it was fair to compare European amateur table tennis to Chinese provincial players.

In the absence of a response with ERT, people started speculating about his motives. I talked about his need for more youtube videos and his attempt to popularize his channel. Musaab made my playing level an issue before all this. I made it clear that my biggest issue with many people on the internet is talking about table tennis without indicating their level, playing style etc. or showing video of how they play. The reason is that I have seen many people abuse internet anonymity, especially in table tennis. Musaab can tell that I have little to teach him based on his observing my videos. That is a fair result! I am asking ERT to give us the same opportunity.

IF ERT is going to be giving all this advice to people, it would help to be clear on his target audience is and what his level and coaching experience is. EmRatThich may share some of the ideas he is talking about with his students in conversations and maybe there is a different definition of beginner and lower intermediate in France, but none of his tips are really for beginners. But when he makes it clear that he is a 2300 player who is coaching club juniors, then his tips make sense. Such players are not going to get the bulk of their advice on youtube though. Baal also pointed out very importantly that there are two different kinds of adult players - the ones that got trained as kids but took time off and came back to the sport and the ones that started playing seriously as adults. It's mostly adults who will be looking to the internet for advice and they will be the ones who will be trying some of this stuff and they may not get all the nuances or understand whether it is really the big thing that will make them better at their level.

So the first thing is to make sure that EmRatThich is actually a coach. And after making sure he is a coach, the next thing is usually to make sure he has experience reaching people at the level he is speaking to.

If such things are belittling and discrediting, I will belittle and discredit as I please. I have been at the end of the consumer of such videos. Maybe you can speak about your experiences learning TT on the internet.

 

[Archosaurus]

@EmRatThich

I suggest you provide your credentials on your channel and maybe in your videos, if you can make it short.

Just having your viewers at least hear from yourself what you claim to be gives them some kind of idea who they are listening to, and I don't think it will violate your privacy.

 

[izra]

You can get me lost in numbers. I just want you to understand I don't hate you or something , I just find there is a big gab between your level of play and the position you take in the forums and specially against other coaches (or who ever claims to be a coach, same for me). I just grabbed a video of you to be compared with a video of my coach who is 2037. In other situation I would even dare saying you play just like me but for now I will give you the upper hand. but to say that you and my coach are not that different, I have to say that seems pretty unreasonable to me.

NL Video

2037 Player video, he is the one on your right hand

here a bonus video, the girl in red is 1500, according to NL, he is playing better than her

this post is stupid. i know some people who are amazing coaches and they play like amateurs, and i know some national level players who couldn't teach someone to play if their life depended on it.

 

[NextLevel]

this post is stupid. i know some people who are amazing coaches and they play like amateurs, and i know some national level players who couldn't teach someone to play if their life depended on it.

I didn't understand the French rating system so he tried to set me straight with examples.

He has a right to demand that anyone who he listens to meet certain requirements. In my club some people go to the highest rated player or pick a player whose style they like - I don't take offense at it. People have told me I have no footwork, people have told me I have no forehand, but I am happy to hear I finally have no backhand. MY backhand is my one stroke that has gotten rave reviews at every level vs just about every opponent.

I remember trying to teach someone to loop (he actually posts here) and he pointed out that my forehand lacked body rotation and I realized he was right and there was no point trying to teach him if he felt that my knowledge would not help him. On the other side of things are people who figure that to have solved the problems that I solved at my age, I had to have figured out a few things and they value that experience.

 

[Der_Echte]

NL'S BH sux serious roxy haha. I got beachfront property in Arizona for sale. My BH sux too.

I tried to troll bait Sugar into inappropriate political commensurate, but he didn't bite.

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[UpSideDownCarl]

table tennis tips "Increase Spin in table tennis by Chinese coaching"

One thing I realize in all this, Musaab has criticized NextLevel's level of play several times. Musaab has seen what NextLevel looks like in unedited, unprofessional footage that NextLevel filmed and posted himself, to let people know who he is and what he plays like.

And it seems that Musaab has come to the conclusion that as a result of what he looks like in his videos, NextLevel should not be so active on the forum or give coaching advice: or something like that. Or is it just that NextLevel somehow gets under Musaab's skin.

Well, I don't know. But, Musaab, can you quote one or two pieces of coaching advice from NextLevel that you feel are off base. Because when he is doing that, to me, he sounds like he presents fairly decent information.

One thing I am comfortable with is the idea that sometimes someone who has worked through as many obstacles and worked as hard as he has to improve, the way NextLevel has, especially while learning as an adult, puts them in an ideal position to help certain people. And often someone in that position is fairly skilled at explaining certain technical details.


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[Suga D]

It's okay to mix up your personal issues with me with other things to buttress your opinions but let's get a few things straight when dealing with facts.

My first post contains my criticism of ERT (I will either call him EmRatThich or ERT going forward). The focus was on Chinese secrets and whether it was fair to compare European amateur table tennis to Chinese provincial players.

In the absence of a response with ERT, people started speculating about his motives. I talked about his need for more youtube videos and his attempt to popularize his channel. Musaab made my playing level an issue before all this. I made it clear that my biggest issue with many people on the internet is talking about table tennis without indicating their level, playing style etc. or showing video of how they play. The reason is that I have seen many people abuse internet anonymity, especially in table tennis. Musaab can tell that I have little to teach him based on his observing my videos. That is a fair result! I am asking ERT to give us the same opportunity.

IF ERT is going to be giving all this advice to people, it would help to be clear on his target audience is and what his level and coaching experience is. EmRatThich may share some of the ideas he is talking about with his students in conversations and maybe there is a different definition of beginner and lower intermediate in France, but none of his tips are really for beginners. But when he makes it clear that he is a 2300 player who is coaching club juniors, then his tips make sense. Such players are not going to get the bulk of their advice on youtube though. Baal also pointed out very importantly that there are two different kinds of adult players - the ones that got trained as kids but took time off and came back to the sport and the ones that started playing seriously as adults. It's mostly adults who will be looking to the internet for advice and they will be the ones who will be trying some of this stuff and they may not get all the nuances or understand whether it is really the big thing that will make them better at their level.

So the first thing is to make sure that EmRatThich is actually a coach. And after making sure he is a coach, the next thing is usually to make sure he has experience reaching people at the level he is speaking to.

If such things are belittling and discrediting, I will belittle and discredit as I please. I have been at the end of the consumer of such videos. Maybe you can speak about your experiences learning TT on the internet.

Hahaha. You're so funny.
You really like playing the innocent victim's role, do ya? So let's get this clear once and for all: I don't have any personal issues with you, but what grinds my gears is the attitude that comes across sometimes.
Your point was clear from your first posts, but you know that I'm a returner and not an adult beginner, so quite nonsense asking me to judge on that.
But could you imagine that some stuff in the vids might appeal to others except you? So why try to spoil what others might enjoy??
That's some serious spoil sport behaviour and could very well be seen as discrediting.
That's not nice, IMO that's ugly az fuq.

Certainly you can ask for all these things like bio, level of play, level of coaching etc. but the way how you ask makes it look a bit like blackmailing.
Nobody forces you to post all these videos of your play, so others shouldn't be forced to post their stuff as well. Don't ya think?
Certainly you can ask others to do that as well, but the way how you do it, is: "if you don't post a video then your opinion doesn't hold any value."
And that's just wrong IMHO.

I know this has been said before, but maybe it got burried or forgotten:
EmRatThich's vids are for free. Why don't ya just scroll on if they don't appeal to you instead of spreading so much negative vibes.

Time for another phrase:
Einem geschenkten Gaul
schaut man nicht aufs Maul.
Meaning: if you get something for free, take it or leave it, but don't start nagging or complaining.

 

[Tenergy05]

Here is Adam Hugh--USATT 2600+ player:

For some reason this guy who is overweight and out of shape and does not look very good is still able to give someone as good as Adam a lot of trouble.

And I can say for sure that NextLevel HAS BEATEN Rich Dewitt. And I am pretty confident that Rich Dewitt would give both players in the video with your coach fits.

Table tennis is more complex than you realize. But a player like NextLevel who learned as an adult is in a unique position to help adult learners.

If you read his comments and are paying attention, you can see he knows what he is talking about.


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The Dewitt guy is very unorthodox player whose style is designed to give conventional players not used to it fits. If NextLevel plays against this a lot he would have an advantage.

Do you or others on that side of the argument play with or measure themselves against Nextlevel, maybe that's why they see need to defend this level? I think people are right to feel it's suspicious for this kind of attack on a popular channel with decent enough TT advice.

 

[Tenergy05]

One last thing. Someone argue above that player rating might not be best indicator of coaching ability, so why keep insisting that ERT reveal such info on himself. I must admit I was curious myself, but people can see the advice for what it is. Notice nobody criticize it for bad advice, just "unoriginal" which most good advice is, or presentation which is matter of opinion.

In part I registered because of this thread, it is honestly pretty ridiculous. ERT's channel is in part popular because he makes it catchy, the popularity is not in doubt with the view numbers, instead of other videos which might have similar info but do not have the audience. Low audience is why seriously table tennis is in trouble, and the community is eating its own for what I see are selfish reasons.

As to the nature of the advice for adults, that is another disccusion but couple points. Because it's "chinese team" advice, certainly it's geared for fit persons who look to play an orthodox topspin game. If someone has disability or restriction or just older, the major changes are they defend/block more than attack, so differing emphasis but not entirely difference basics. My own view is that most TT advice is focused on what's going on on the player's side of the table, and not what goes on the other side, which is important to get beyond mediocre ("physically proficient") level.

 

[Baal]

One last thing. Someone argue above that player rating might not be best indicator of coaching ability, so why keep insisting that ERT reveal such info on himself.

Very good point.

 

[NextLevel]

Very good point.

No one argued that ERT should specifically reveal his rating as anything other than one relevant information point - the question was to share aspects of his background that would inform his understanding of the subjects he is presenting and his approach to them, and playing level is one such aspect of his background. Video of someone playing is another. We even discussed the idea that coaching details would be more than acceptable. And the argument that rating is not the best indicator of coaching ability is a nuanced one - not terribly difficult to understand but easy to distort for trivial argument gains.

 

[Baal]

I figured from tne start ERT had a decent level. As much as I could watch it was all reasonable enough. I very much did not like the whole "Chinese secrsts" schtick. Really my main complaint. He doesnt need that to get viewers. But even ERT says that was a bit overdone.

 

[ttmonster]

bottom line is NextLevel is a hater and spreads fake news ... .. I did not say this , you know who did .. lets make table tennis great again by looking at "real videos" made by ERT !

 

[tropical]

Well.. everyone already made his/her points. Why not just leave him alone so he can produce more "fake" video's for folks who like them.

 

[ttmonster]

of course you are right tropical , but I just can't help myself ... I just wanted to put this little edit in ....

"lets make table tennis outside of china great again by watching ERT's videos with "real" Chinese secrets" ...

 

[Der_Echte]

bottom line is NextLevel is a hater and spreads fake news ... .. I did not say this , you know who did .. lets make table tennis great again by looking at "real videos" made by ERT !

Unless you have met TT Monster live and hang out and chill with him a bit to engage in diverse dialog in person, one would NEVER know the true depth of Monster's grasp of the difficult small parts of English and American culture... One would NEVER get an idea of hiz totally WICKED sense of humor that exceeds GB ENGLAND kind of subtle humor.

TT Monster totally gets in ways some native Americans fail to get it. That should say a lot.

 

[Musaab]

@Carl I knew partially what you stated about NL, good for him. Just to clear this for you, I didn't questionned NL play level to say he shouldn't give advice, actually at some point in the thread I said that I know he has valuable stuff to say. but that should be it, his comments to ERT I found them unreasonable since his level isn't that high (at least by my standards). I might even have learned something or two from his collaborations with the australian coach. I'm not at all saying that NL replies/comments/advices on their own right, are not valuable.

@NextLevel I must say I respect the fact that you are not taking this personally (I hope). I admit I didn't watch all of your videos. A side from the footwork, my comments about your forehand and backhand were mostly extrapolated from the tiny bits I saw. You have a long arm and "whip mechanics" is your thing and I saw few of those forehands so I assumed you are fine in this departement. As for the backhand, I never saw a backhand loop for long balls, never a Chequita for short balls and sometimes you take the ball from the side of your body and not from the stomach/chest. But hey I might be wrong there. btw I'm an adult beginner, just like you, the argument that ERT is not for people like me (us) I don't agree with. I filmed myself once playing and I did like 4 consecutive topspins and I felt like Ma Long for a minute, when I went home and reviewed the footage, even if all balls landed on the table, there is something odd, can't point it out but I can feel it, until I saw ERT video about "Power from the ground" , at least it helped me locate where the problem is (working on it right now). But still, may be your point is, as you already walked this path, this type of learning is exactly what should be avoided.