Producing side underspin on the chiquita

[ttarc]

Did you even watch the video with subtitles enabled ...

they are clearly saying "nomuta" is different than "chiquita" in that its side under .. and he has spent over fifteen minutes explaining how he does that ... not to mention there is a huge red arrow pointing downward in the thumbnail .. lol !

0:35 or 1:07 pause video and use comma and dot to step through the frames: Contact is on the side of the ball. Not below. Now think about the ball's axis of rotation and direction. The axis is not parallel to the table but tilted and rotation is clockwise (same as pendulum serve) so when the receiver contacts the ball the ball will go to the right (of the receiver) and down.
4:35 that's what I said above: With penhold grip it's easier but contact is still on the left bottom side of the ball so sidespin with a tilted axis of rotation.
Around 5:50. What I said on page 1: it's easier to do when holding the racket more or less like serving a reverse pendulum serve.
13:36 and 13:44 side bottom contact = sidespin with tilted axis of rotation... if the axis of rotation is further rotated we will end up with backspin but then the ball's trajectory will not bend towards the receiver...

 

[vvk1]

Ah, the side-underspin chiquita, that elusive and rare shot which some people claim does not exist ...

Here's me observing it from the receiving end:

 

[NextLevel]

0:35 or 1:07 pause video and use comma and dot to step through the frames: Contact is on the side of the ball. Not below. Now think about the ball's axis of rotation and direction. The axis is not parallel to the table but tilted and rotation is clockwise (same as pendulum serve) so when the receiver contacts the ball the ball will go to the right (of the receiver) and down.
4:35 that's what I said above: With penhold grip it's easier but contact is still on the left bottom side of the ball so sidespin with a tilted axis of rotation.
Around 5:50. What I said on page 1: it's easier to do when holding the racket more or less like serving a reverse pendulum serve.
13:36 and 13:44 side bottom contact = sidespin with tilted axis of rotation... if the axis of rotation is further rotated we will end up with backspin but then the ball's trajectory will not bend towards the receiver...

So how would you return the ball? A push or a block?

 

[NextLevel]

There is a clear difference, BTW, between lying about what the video says and assuming the video is wrong (or correct).

 

[ttarc]

Ah, the side-underspin chiquita, that elusive and rare shot which some people claim does not exist ...

Here's me observing it from the receiving end:

That's even better than the previous videos. Just pause the video and step through the frames...
Point of contact is

 

[ander999]

Interesting - what is the durability of Superselect 48 like? I haven't tried new rubber in like forever, but maybe if something is better than T05 in almost every respect, I need to give it a seat at the table somehow... I know you are speaking subjectively but can't disregard the opinion of good players lol.

The top sheet is very durable. I have just glued a new sheet on but the last one lasted 3 months (I play a lot and even coach with them). There was maybe 1 minor tear which is from me hitting the table, otherwise 0 broken peices or rips. Because these rubbers were made to combat the new plastic ball, they made the top sheet more grippy. Even after 3 months the top sheet was in really good condition.

 

[ander999]

As you pointed out 3 times today, I am just a moron but let me know if I am TOTALLY out of line for asking this.
Why are you & NextLevel discussing about Tenergy Hardness in a thread that is about chiquita
Even a moron like me understands that this should be in a separate thread.

Only twice today actually. And he asked me about it so I answered 🤷‍♂️

 

[NextLevel]

That's even better than the previous videos. Just pause the video and step through the frames...
Point of contact is
View attachment 26011

So how would you return the ball?

 

[ttmonster]

@NextLevel : You won't believe the amount of topspin is in this backhand flick !!!! .. and you know that moron receiver touched on the "no spin face of the corkscrew" and the ball went and hit the floor !!! Its a miracle ! Don't believe anything they are saying .. they are making fake videos because apparently there is a hidden black market for such fake videos and they make millions from it !

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel : You won't believe the amount of topspin is in this backhand flick !!!! .. and you know that moron receiver touched on the "no spin face of the corkscrew" and the ball went and hit the floor !!! Its a miracle ! Don't believe anything they are saying .. they are making fake videos because apparently there is a hidden black market for such fake videos and they make millions from it !

As Eddie Murphy might have said in 1987, "You guys don't know how to go deep with your fakes! I am going deep! Deep with the fakes! I can deep fake the TT ball to defy the laws of physics I tell you! You won't trust your eyes no more! I am deep!"

 

[brokenball]

The forum is very ignorant of physics. Torque is what makes the ball spin. It causes angular acceleration. There is no if ands or buts. If the force applied to the ball is above the center of mass of the ball, the ball will have top spin. The more the force is above the center of the ball the larger the torque. Torque = force x distance. Surely there are some mechanical people out there that know this. Too many think the ball has under/back spin even though the coaches paddle is moving up and applying a force with a vector above the center of mass of the ball.

 

[ttmonster]

The forum is very ignorant of physics. Torque is what makes the ball spin. It causes angular acceleration. There is no if ands or buts. If the force applied to the ball is above the center of mass of the ball, the ball will have top spin. The more the force is above the center of the ball the larger the torque. Torque = force x distance. Surely there are some mechanical people out there that know this. Too many think the ball has under/back spin even though the coaches paddle is moving up and applying a force with a vector above the center of mass of the ball.

totally feel you man …. i can only humbly point out … for one it’s not a physics forum and i too have similar feelings about some members here... very concerned about their eyesight and overall mental health …what can we do … one does not get all their wishes fulfilled … such is life ! take care my friend

 

[NextLevel]

The forum is very ignorant of physics. Torque is what makes the ball spin. It causes angular acceleration. There is no if ands or buts. If the force applied to the ball is above the center of mass of the ball, the ball will have top spin. The more the force is above the center of the ball the larger the torque. Torque = force x distance. Surely there are some mechanical people out there that know this. Too many think the ball has under/back spin even though the coaches paddle is moving up and applying a force with a vector above the center of mass of the ball.

I disagree, most players know more than enough physics to see and understand what is happening, the problem is that players who cannot play table tennis are trying to establish themselves as experts in table tennis on the basis of irrelevant facts.

Not one person who emphasises that the ball supposedly lacks backspin (backspin which is largely a result of the incoming serve not the return stroke, by the way) has answered whether they would return the ball with a push or with a block. It is the answer to such questions that most table tennis players (who supposedly do not understand physics) care much more about. Sometimes when someone says a ball has a certain spin, it is not so much about exactly how the ball is spinning but about how the return should be approach to returning the ball. Such language nuances are beyond some of our resident physicists but they are easily apprehended by pragmatically oriented table tennis players.

 

[ttarc]

I disagree, most players know more than enough physics to see and understand what is happening, the problem is that players who cannot play table tennis are trying to establish themselves as experts in table tennis on the basis of irrelevant facts.

Not one person who emphasises that the ball supposedly lacks backspin (backspin which is largely a result of the incoming serve not the return stroke, by the way) has answered whether they would return the ball with a push or with a block.

How much backspin from the serve should there be left on the ball if one hits the ball as fast as the guys in these videos do? They are all "overriding" the spin and this is also the best option to return such a flick: Loop or flick.
Getting the angle right to return such a flick with a more or less passive stroke is much harder.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

so, can we conclude that the shot in OP is possible.
any more non believers?

I am glad 11 years on, we have turned few more non believers to believers.
We are making fast progress

 

[NextLevel]

How much backspin from the serve should there be left on the ball if one hits the ball as fast as the guys in these videos do? They are all "overriding" the spin and this is also the best option to return such a flick: Loop or flick.
Getting the angle right to return such a flick with a more or less passive stroke is much harder.

Okay. What kind of loop or flick would one use to override spin and return the ball? What would it look like? If you are overriding the spin, what does it mean about the ball orientation?

The thing is this: no one is arguing that the ball lacks sidespin. Usually when a ball goes down, the traditional way to adjust to it is to lift or add friction. If a ball goes up, the traditional way to react to it is to hit or cover.

The thing is that if you opened your paddle and treated the ball like a chopped ball with some sidespin, you can return many of these balls. Whether that is the optimal return in a fast TT game is another story but my main point is that I want to understand how people who are claiming the ball is not a backspin ball would use their enlightened understanding of spin to actually return the ball since that is what matters most in table tennis. Passive returns are usually the easiest way to purely Express what you think is on the ball. Active returns do the same but even then, they need to be calibrated to the incoming spin.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

over riding spin is one thing,
carrying service spin back to the server (player) is another
generating spin is another

in the OP, the practice partner doesn't look like a noob. He is moving VERY fine to me.
obviously for video demonstrations, he is putting a solid angle there and allow the ball to do the trick.
There is quite a bit of underspin for it to sink downwards into the net.
If it was purely side spin, it would fly out sideways.

(this is now my experience). BH Flick, can generate underspin.
It is not just lifting the ball back, but can actually add on and generate underspin back. Think just like a normal push/chop return back.

Someone/somewhere said above, there is underspin and light side spin (I think I said that too), and indeed that is it.
If you grip most of the ball on the underspin generation and then little on the side spin generation, the ball rotation will be more underspin than it is side.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[Richie]

I don't know if anyone has seen it, but the guy replied to someone's comment asking about this.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't know if anyone has seen it, but the guy replied to someone's comment asking about this.

View attachment 26017

Miss the net?

going into the net is the question
but he replied, if you think it is side spin and you hit the ball, it will miss the net?

Something not right there

 

[Richie]

Miss the net?

going into the net is the question
but he replied, if you think it is side spin and you hit the ball, it will miss the net?

Something not right there

Since English isn't his first language it isn't impossible that he could mean missing the net by hitting the ball into the net. I've seen something similar before.