For those who think pips have a ceiling

[ViperTableTennis]

Another Feeder won by a pips player haha.

Another great result from a pips player! What you should do is carry out a proper statistical analysis of this. You should look at the full range of WTT events held over a given time period (maybe this season and the season before?) and then record whether the winner in both the male and female category was a pips player or not. Once you have all this data you'll be able to plot it on two graphs (one for men, one for women) which will then show us the distribution of pips victories across the spectrum of WTT events. This will show you were the pips ceiling currently resides is in terms of actual results being achieved.

 

[blahness]

I think only a few ppl really understood this thread. If pips players can win top tournaments in the world despite the low number of elite professionals trained in pips play, there really isn't any sense to the argument for a pips ceiling which is basically a lie inverted players come up with - designed to comfort themselves when they lose to pips players lol.

For example, Gozo's classic pips = hare, inverted = tortoise analogy is completely incorrect here because there is realistically no ceiling for pips play either. It's just a different style. Der_Echte also mentioned a player who played at 2100 level with double inverted and 2300 after switching to pips (which in this case suggests that in actual fact, in certain cases there is a "ceiling" for double inverted especially for ppl who are getting older or have other physical issues)

Furthermore, if the Indian women team trained with double inverted, there is approx 0% chance they will ever score wins against top CNT players like Sun Yingsha and Wang Yidi. So in fact they pierced their ceiling level (relative to their training) by having pips.

Also I love how there is no talk about the pips advantage in serve receive which is the no.1 issue in table tennis. And the safety provided by topspin play is more than offset by the ease of returning a topspin by top players as compared to receiving a weird unknown spin attack from pips.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I think only a few ppl really understood this thread. If pips players can win top tournaments in the world despite the low number of elite professionals trained in pips play, there really isn't any sense to the argument for a pips ceiling which is basically a lie inverted players come up with - designed to comfort themselves when they lose to pips players lol.

For example, Gozo's classic pips = hare, inverted = tortoise analogy is completely incorrect here because there is realistically no ceiling for pips play either. It's just a different style. Der_Echte also mentioned a player who played at 2100 level with double inverted and 2300 after switching to pips (which in this case suggests that in actual fact, in certain cases there is a "ceiling" for double inverted especially for ppl who are getting older or have other physical issues)

Furthermore, if the Indian women team trained with double inverted, there is approx 0% chance they will ever score wins against top CNT players like Sun Yingsha and Wang Yidi. So in fact they pierced their ceiling level (relative to their training) by having pips.

Also I love how there is no talk about the pips advantage in serve receive which is the no.1 issue in table tennis. And the safety provided by topspin play is more than offset by the ease of returning a topspin by top players as compared to receiving a weird unknown spin attack from pips.

Have you ever wondered why there is such a low number of elite professionals playing with pips, though? If pips play doesn't have a ceiling, or doesn't have a ceiling that is lower than that of inverted play, then that would mean that pips play was an equally viable strategy for winning at the elite level. If that were the case, the sport would have naturally evolved to a point where there was a much more even mix of the styles at every level; we'd be looking at world ranking lists and be noticing that it was a more or less 50/50 split between pips-in and pips-out players. But that's not what we see; what we actually see is that the elite level of the sport is dominated by double-inverted players, and then pips usage gradually becomes more common as you descend the levels within the sport....until you get to the very lowest levels (local league etc) where in my experience you might see as many as 20-30% of players using pips.

Pips predate inverted rubbers (and even the newer long pimple variant has now been around for nearly 50 years!), so the idea that pips are merely lagging behind inverted rubber because we've not yet worked out how to optimise them is a bit of a non-starter in my opinion. There's been plenty of time, and there's been plenty of world-class pips players to pass on their knowledge...the issue is simply that it is (statistically speaking) an inferior strategy in the modern era (under the existing rules) for winning matches...and that inferiority is exposed when the style faces its sternest test, which of course happens at the higher levels of the sport.

 

[blahness]

Have you ever wondered why there is such a low number of elite professionals playing with pips, though? If pips play doesn't have a ceiling, or doesn't have a ceiling that is lower than that of inverted play, then that would mean that pips play was an equally viable strategy for winning at the elite level. If that were the case, the sport would have naturally evolved to a point where there was a much more even mix of the styles at every level; we'd be looking at world ranking lists and be noticing that it was a more or less 50/50 split between pips-in and pips-out players. But that's not what we see; what we actually see is that the elite level of the sport is dominated by double-inverted players, and then pips usage gradually becomes more common as you descend the levels within the sport....until you get to the very lowest levels (local league etc) where in my experience you might see as many as 20-30% of players using pips.

Pips predate inverted rubbers (and even the newer long pimple variant has now been around for nearly 50 years!), so the idea that pips are merely lagging behind inverted rubber because we've not yet worked out how to optimise them is a bit of a non-starter in my opinion. There's been plenty of time, and there's been plenty of world-class pips players to pass on their knowledge...the issue is simply that it is (statistically speaking) an inferior strategy in the modern era (under the existing rules) for winning matches...and that inferiority is exposed when the style faces its sternest test, which of course happens at the higher levels of the sport.

It's strange you're suddenly posting so much on this thread when you only have 1 other post with 0 replies on another thread? Your account seems a bit sus tbh... Also you don't seem to have serve/receive knowledge which leads me to really question your understanding.

The lower leagues don't really count because they have absolutely 0 chance at the pro level, inverted or pips alike. Only those who are properly coached since young have any remote chance of going pro, and the vast majority of them are being coached to play double inverted simply because it's easier. Even back when penholders held equal amounts of Olympic Champions, still the majority of kids were coached with 2 wing inverted shakehand, not penhold.

You still see pips players like Luka with very bad basics and techniques which he still got decent results with - this shows that the styles are extremely far from being sufficiently optimised. If you got a pips player with an overwhelmingly strong FH loop and crazy WCQ like serves + a complete pips game, some really good stuff will happen.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

It's strange you're suddenly posting so much on this thread when you only have 1 other post with 0 replies on another thread? Your account seems a bit sus tbh... Also you don't seem to have serve/receive knowledge which leads me to really question your understanding.

The lower leagues don't really count because they have absolutely 0 chance at the pro level, inverted or pips alike. Only those who are properly coached since young have any remote chance of going pro, and the vast majority of them are being coached to play double inverted simply because it's easier. Even back when penholders held equal amounts of Olympic Champions, still the majority of kids were coached with 2 wing inverted shakehand, not penhold.

You still see pips players like Luka with very bad basics and techniques which he still got decent results with - this shows that the styles are extremely far from being sufficiently optimised. If you got a pips player with an overwhelmingly strong FH loop and crazy WCQ like serves + a complete pips game, some really good stuff will happen.

What's strange is the fact that you would research my posting history on the forum and then reference it as some sort of ad hominem attack rather than just engaging with the points I'm actually making in this debate! My posts in this thread have received multiple 'likes' from other participants, so what I'm saying in this discussion is clearly being positively received by my peers, even if you're not a fan of it.

I'm reminded of that famous quote from the Greek philosopher Socrates - "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser".

I'm happy to continue the debate if you can stay on topic, but if you're going to resort to personal attacks I'll move on to greener pastures

 

[NDH]

I think only a few ppl really understood this thread. If pips players can win top tournaments in the world despite the low number of elite professionals trained in pips play, there really isn't any sense to the argument for a pips ceiling which is basically a lie inverted players come up with - designed to comfort themselves when they lose to pips players lol.

I'm amazed this thread has continued as much as it has - Especially with no new information, opinion or ideas!

But here we are - What else is there to do on a Monday anyway 😂

To try and unpack your paragraph here....

I think only a few ppl really understood this thread.

Perhaps your definition of a "ceiling" is different to everyone else's? From your comments, it would appear that you certainly don't understand what most people are saying (in regards to how they define "ceiling" in this context), and you just carry on blindly arguing your own point.

If pips players can win top tournaments in the world despite the low number of elite professionals trained in pips play, there really isn't any sense to the argument for a pips ceiling

Why do coaches, players and countries encourage double inverted play for *most* juniors starting the game?

Do you think a country like China would advocate for a style that isn't as good as another?

Has anyone said that pips players won't ever win anything? Or simply that pips limit your tactics if you come up against someone who can comfortably handle them.

I don't know the stats, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were more women top 100 players who use pips vs the men.

For men, the power and spin they can generate is a big weapon vs pips - Something a lot of the women would struggle a little more with.

basically a lie inverted players come up with - designed to comfort themselves when they lose to pips players lol.

I think this is my favourite comment ever. Genuinely 😂

The great pips conspiracy theory - Can we expect to see you on Joe Rogan anytime soon?

When I lose to pips players, I always think..... "How??" - Their ceiling should be to MY advantage, not to theirs.

But, all of this being said, you still don't want to look at both sides of the argument.

I know a UK local league Prem player who has switched to pips on his backhand (before that, he was an aggressive forehand player with an OK aggressive/controlled backhand).

He feels the pips give him more options due to the previous limitations of his backhand, and he's probably playing slightly better with the new set up.

BUT..... He is losing *easier* to players who can comfortably play pips, and he has no answer to that.

But as there are still lots of (good) players who aren't that comfortable against pips.... It's the right decision for him at this time.

 

[JJ Ng]

Ok, I have read through the whole threads. Here are my thoughts:

I am going to go back to some earlier posts from @blahness

1) Pips does not have a ceiling for 99% of the players out there except maybe the top 50 in the world. I agree with that statement. His statement got buried in five pages of responses so far.

2) Pips does have a ceiling when we talk about top 50 players in the world or who is the all time great. Yes we can all agree that Ma Long would not have achieve his GOAT status unless he has played with short pips on both side (AKA Johnny Huang style from the 1990's and early 2000's).

3) I think the average club players who use pips and OVERRELY on pips by using that side every time and just sitting in the middle of the table, taking half step to the right and half step to the left really mess up our feelings against pips.

When you look at players who excel with pips, they train hard. Just using those Indian ladies as an example. They move well. None of them would have done that well against the CNT players unless they move to the optimal position on the table to block with their anti/long pips well. Then their powerful forehand smashes would not have such killers if they did not move into positions (meaning a lot of athleticism was involved) and if they had not been practicing over and over and over again (meaning putting in a lot of sweat and training and pushing their bodies in practices). They also have to learn, such as Bitra, turn their paddles around and sometimes use inverted to block down the line or change the pace when they feel that their long-pips were pinned down by heavy topspins.

So we should block out the average lazy club players who use pips and think about all the top players who use so much time to learn how to play both inverted and pips well (after all, one side should be inverted and the other side long pips/anti; double long pips or double anti will not get you anywhere at all).

4) Blahness did bring up a good point. The number of kids being trained with pips from the get go is very small. Maybe if more kids start practicing with pips since they are young (i.e. especially in China) and more coaches figuring out new ways to use pips in game situation (both technical strokes and strategies), pips players at the highest level might have higher ceiling that we have not discovered.

However, China did use pips for decades to dominate because Swedes destroyed them with double inverted so if China did see the huge potential in pips, I doubt they would not put more resources in it. Liu Guoliang used pips on the forehand side and with his position in CNT over the past decade and half, if Liu Guoliang thinks that pips have a bright future, he most likely would have pushed for it. Wang Tao also used inverted on the forehand and short pips on the backhand side. After those two players, I cannot think of any top Chinese players who have not played with double inverted.

Finally the goal of table tennis is not to smash and win the point outright. The goal is, whoever can keep it on the table the longest wins. And looping with inverted rubber does just that with the least margin for errors.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

Do you think a country like China would advocate for a style that isn't as good as another?

This is a massively relevant point. My understanding of the Chinese table tennis infrastructure is that they actively and strategically pick out a percentage of players to train them up using pips...but they do this primarily to create quality practice partners for the ones that they intend for world domination. They're creating them as a support act, not the main event!

For all intents and purposes, the Chinese have so many players at their disposal that they have the luxury of being able to 'sacrifice' a percentage of them to becoming high level sparring-partners that are arguably world-class in certain niche aspects of the game, but are not rounded enough to compete at the top level.

 

[Draycott old man]

I've been playing for over 20 years and my B.H was always my weakness!! I changed to short pimples and soon changed back to inverted,then just by chance I tried Medium pimples and have never looked back !!! I can do everything with them plus when you block with them you give a really awkward ball that you don't really know what's on it either float or slight backspin, when you attack with them they take some getting used to for your opponent and that's whare I believe not enough top players have tried Medium pimples. I heard people say Medium pimples don't do anything well but I disagree as they have enough variety as hardly anyone plays with them . My B.H is now a real weapon as it is so different to my F.H my B.H is never the same 2 shots running!!! I believe that for myself Medium pimples have help take my game to a higher level!!!

 

[NDH]

1) Pips does not have a ceiling for 99% of the players out there except maybe the top 50 in the world. I agree with that statement. His statement got buried in five pages of responses so far.

Short reply because I’m on my phone! 😅

I agree with a lot of your post BTW.

On this point, it’s really difficult to put into words, but I’ve tried to give examples previously that agrees and disagrees with what you are saying.

Ultimately, sure, if someone trained like an absolute beast with pips, they’d be better than almost everyone (certainly everyone we know) minus the top professionals.

I’m not saying pips have that sort of ceiling.

They can also HELP players at certain levels as they cause people problems (plenty of examples already given).

But there are just as many (if not more) examples of where the pips limit what the player can do.

Now, maybe we haven’t explored the fact that a lot of players who use pips at lower levels (lower than professional that is), simply can’t use inverted as well, so their ability IMPROVES when using pips.

That’s not the point of the thread though, and doesn’t disprove the “ceiling” theory in my opinion.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I've been playing for over 20 years and my B.H was always my weakness!! I changed to short pimples and soon changed back to inverted,then just by chance I tried Medium pimples and have never looked back !!! I can do everything with them plus when you block with them you give a really awkward ball that you don't really know what's on it either float or slight backspin, when you attack with them they take some getting used to for your opponent and that's whare I believe not enough top players have tried Medium pimples. I heard people say Medium pimples don't do anything well but I disagree as they have enough variety as hardly anyone plays with them . My B.H is now a real weapon as it is so different to my F.H my B.H is never the same 2 shots running!!! I believe that for myself Medium pimples have help take my game to a higher level!!!

I don't think anyone in this thread would want to challenge anything you've said there. The notion that there is a ceiling to pips certainly doesn't mean that there isn't the ability to improve your standard with pips, or that with some players they will play better with pips than they otherwise could with other equipment.

 

[Draycott old man]

I don't think anyone in this thread would want to challenge anything you've said there. The notion that there is a ceiling to pips certainly doesn't mean that there isn't the ability to improve your standard with pips, or that with some players they will play better with pips than they otherwise could with other equipment.

I believe it's important that all styles of playing this amazing sport are encouraged, it's a shame that most if not all youngsters are only trained with double inverted. I'm worried that pimples will be a thing of the past if we are not careful!!! All styles of table tennis are special,as is all of us who play this amazing sport!!!!

 

[pingpongpaddy]

If we remind ourselves that there was once a player who was more than capable of beating waldner who used a very basic traditional sp paddle I am talking about Jiang Jialiang

He had very basic rubber on his bat and just relied on his speed and coordination to hit everything. It's sad that people don't appreciate him more. I think its because he didn't possess any spectacular spin strokes.
As far as ceiling goes, for most of his career his level was above that of most challenging he was my favourite player. If the modern sp like Moristo had been available then he would have been even more dominant IMO

Jiang Jialiang​

Born: 03/03/1964
Height: 176 cm
Nationality: Chinese

Style: Right-handed, Penhold
Best WR: 1 (March 1989)

NEWS & ARTICLES ABOUT JIALIANG
Jiang Jialiang (Chinese: 江嘉良) was born 3 March, 1964 in Zhongshan, China.
A former World Ranking leader, he is a 5-time World champion – three times in team and twice in singles event. In 1984, Jialiang won the World Cup in singles event. He is a 5-time Asian champion – three times in team event and once in singles and mixed doubles events. On professional circuit, Jialiang won 4 singles and two doubles titles in his career.
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS

 

[blahness]

Ok, I have read through the whole threads. Here are my thoughts:

I am going to go back to some earlier posts from @blahness

1) Pips does not have a ceiling for 99% of the players out there except maybe the top 50 in the world. I agree with that statement. His statement got buried in five pages of responses so far.

2) Pips does have a ceiling when we talk about top 50 players in the world or who is the all time great. Yes we can all agree that Ma Long would not have achieve his GOAT status unless he has played with short pips on both side (AKA Johnny Huang style from the 1990's and early 2000's).

3) I think the average club players who use pips and OVERRELY on pips by using that side every time and just sitting in the middle of the table, taking half step to the right and half step to the left really mess up our feelings against pips.

When you look at players who excel with pips, they train hard. Just using those Indian ladies as an example. They move well. None of them would have done that well against the CNT players unless they move to the optimal position on the table to block with their anti/long pips well. Then their powerful forehand smashes would not have such killers if they did not move into positions (meaning a lot of athleticism was involved) and if they had not been practicing over and over and over again (meaning putting in a lot of sweat and training and pushing their bodies in practices). They also have to learn, such as Bitra, turn their paddles around and sometimes use inverted to block down the line or change the pace when they feel that their long-pips were pinned down by heavy topspins.

So we should block out the average lazy club players who use pips and think about all the top players who use so much time to learn how to play both inverted and pips well (after all, one side should be inverted and the other side long pips/anti; double long pips or double anti will not get you anywhere at all).

4) Blahness did bring up a good point. The number of kids being trained with pips from the get go is very small. Maybe if more kids start practicing with pips since they are young (i.e. especially in China) and more coaches figuring out new ways to use pips in game situation (both technical strokes and strategies), pips players at the highest level might have higher ceiling that we have not discovered.

However, China did use pips for decades to dominate because Swedes destroyed them with double inverted so if China did see the huge potential in pips, I doubt they would not put more resources in it. Liu Guoliang used pips on the forehand side and with his position in CNT over the past decade and half, if Liu Guoliang thinks that pips have a bright future, he most likely would have pushed for it. Wang Tao also used inverted on the forehand and short pips on the backhand side. After those two players, I cannot think of any top Chinese players who have not played with double inverted.

Finally the goal of table tennis is not to smash and win the point outright. The goal is, whoever can keep it on the table the longest wins. And looping with inverted rubber does just that with the least margin for errors.

I want to focus on a fallacy here which is an appeal to authority ie China here. Just because CNT is the best TT association out there, doesnt mean that they have fully optimised everything. It just means that they chose a path that's easy to guarantee their collective success and they stopped trying elsewhere. There are a shit ton of things in this world which are woefully unoptimised despite a lot of ppl working on the problem.

Almost all of the young kids in China train double inverted, and there's a lot of talented pips players who just became training partners - they didn't get the same amount of opportunities as their double inverted teammates clearly, because the management simply didn't see them as core team potential due to mistrust in the style of play, not in anything to do with their style.

 

[NextLevel]

If we remind ourselves that there was once a player who was more than capable of beating waldner who used a very basic traditional sp paddle I am talking about Jiang Jialiang

He had very basic rubber on his bat and just relied on his speed and coordination to hit everything. It's sad that people don't appreciate him more. I think its because he didn't possess any spectacular spin strokes.
As far as ceiling goes, for most of his career his level was above that of most challenging he was my favourite player. If the modern sp like Moristo had been available then he would have been even more dominant IMO

Jiang Jialiang​

Born: 03/03/1964
Height: 176 cm
Nationality: Chinese

Style: Right-handed, Penhold
Best WR: 1 (March 1989)

NEWS & ARTICLES ABOUT JIALIANG
Jiang Jialiang (Chinese: 江嘉良) was born 3 March, 1964 in Zhongshan, China.
A former World Ranking leader, he is a 5-time World champion – three times in team and twice in singles event. In 1984, Jialiang won the World Cup in singles event. He is a 5-time Asian champion – three times in team event and once in singles and mixed doubles events. On professional circuit, Jialiang won 4 singles and two doubles titles in his career.
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS

If we are to believe his training partner, he used to lose to his double inverted training partner who mimicked Waldner in practice all the time. So whether his advantage was the ceiling of his equipment or the Chinese training system that gave him a practice partner to optimize his game, I'll leave that to people to decide.

The secrets of Chinese table tennis

Table tennis information site. This web site has lots of information on strokes, basics, rules, injury info, articles, interviews, links and video clips both in English and in Turkish.

www.masatenisi.org

China’s Jiang Jialiang, a pips-out penholder, won the worlds in 1985. As the 1987 Worlds approached, it became apparent that his main rival would be Sweden’s Waldner. And so much of his time training was with Cheng, who could mimic everything Waldner did, from his serve and serve returns, to his forehand loops and drives, etc. As the ’87 Worlds approached, they began playing many practice matches, with the loser doing push-ups. Cheng won match after match, and after each match would stand over Jiang as he did his push-ups, asking how he’s going to win the Worlds if he can’t even beat him?!! The preparation worked; while Jiang didn’t do so well against Cheng before the Worlds, he became so used to the “Waldner” game that he was able to win the 1987 Worlds again."

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I think the truth is, that to be on top of the world at TT you need to be:-

in possession of close to Olympic level running and jumping
ditto hand eye coordination

China at the moment control the largest selection pool of players to coach and they seem to favour the spinny rubber style which in the 70's to 80's was sometimes called the European Style over the Original Chinese Style which was close to the Table counter hitting. The Japanese and Koreans pursued the traditional Heroic Trad pen driving as personified by Saito RSM and KTS. We seem to have a global style now which was caused by China responding to Sweden's challenge

Would say that the only thing that would bring about change is if China was challenged in a serious. They will never set aside a proven winning strategy, as the rule in sport is not to change a winning method.
If
Japan
Korea
France
et alia
can mount a proper challenge then I have no doubt that China would direct their best physical specimens to play with whatever equipment will allow them to force their opponents off the Table.
The essence of racket sports is the challenge of returning opponents shots and placing the ball out of reach of the opponent
Spin is one of the factors, but how and where to place the ball out of reach is the fundamental task of the TT player of any generation.
What would such players be like?
What if there was a Wang LI Quin like person who played Combi SP and inverted.
I would love to see it but I am not holding my breath!

 

[NextLevel]

Ok, I have read through the whole threads. Here are my thoughts:

I am going to go back to some earlier posts from @blahness

1) Pips does not have a ceiling for 99% of the players out there except maybe the top 50 in the world. I agree with that statement. His statement got buried in five pages of responses so far.

2) Pips does have a ceiling when we talk about top 50 players in the world or who is the all time great. Yes we can all agree that Ma Long would not have achieve his GOAT status unless he has played with short pips on both side (AKA Johnny Huang style from the 1990's and early 2000's).

3) I think the average club players who use pips and OVERRELY on pips by using that side every time and just sitting in the middle of the table, taking half step to the right and half step to the left really mess up our feelings against pips.

When you look at players who excel with pips, they train hard. Just using those Indian ladies as an example. They move well. None of them would have done that well against the CNT players unless they move to the optimal position on the table to block with their anti/long pips well. Then their powerful forehand smashes would not have such killers if they did not move into positions (meaning a lot of athleticism was involved) and if they had not been practicing over and over and over again (meaning putting in a lot of sweat and training and pushing their bodies in practices). They also have to learn, such as Bitra, turn their paddles around and sometimes use inverted to block down the line or change the pace when they feel that their long-pips were pinned down by heavy topspins.

So we should block out the average lazy club players who use pips and think about all the top players who use so much time to learn how to play both inverted and pips well (after all, one side should be inverted and the other side long pips/anti; double long pips or double anti will not get you anywhere at all).

4) Blahness did bring up a good point. The number of kids being trained with pips from the get go is very small. Maybe if more kids start practicing with pips since they are young (i.e. especially in China) and more coaches figuring out new ways to use pips in game situation (both technical strokes and strategies), pips players at the highest level might have higher ceiling that we have not discovered.

However, China did use pips for decades to dominate because Swedes destroyed them with double inverted so if China did see the huge potential in pips, I doubt they would not put more resources in it. Liu Guoliang used pips on the forehand side and with his position in CNT over the past decade and half, if Liu Guoliang thinks that pips have a bright future, he most likely would have pushed for it. Wang Tao also used inverted on the forehand and short pips on the backhand side. After those two players, I cannot think of any top Chinese players who have not played with double inverted.

Finally the goal of table tennis is not to smash and win the point outright. The goal is, whoever can keep it on the table the longest wins. And looping with inverted rubber does just that with the least margin for errors.

Pips were more effective with the smaller ball (38mm) but even then, people thought the days of pips were numbered. But the real killer was when they made rules to limit what could be done with pips in terms of their aspect ratio. That and removing hidden serves pretty much ended the career of Liu Guoliang like that. But we are not speaking about pips in the late 1990s or 1980s per se, but what exists today. Pips players can be tough to play against, especially if they are using frictionless pips which used to be legal in the old days (I lost to a lady using those just yesterday), but such things are largely illegal but even if allowed, they have tradeoffs just like anything else.

 

[NextLevel]

Thought this would show the power of pimples!

 

[9muse]

Pips players can be tough to play against, especially if they are using frictionless pips which used to be legal in the old days (I lost to a lady using those just yesterday),

May I ask which unapproved (on LARC) frictionless pips she was using ?

 

[NextLevel]

May I ask which unapproved (on LARC) frictionless pips she was using ?

Men, SJAN always comes out of nowhere to ask questions.