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  1. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #1

    Save the Rainforest

    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    I thought it was suggested that commentary on this subject should be brought to a different thread? When it is moved, I have a final thought on this subject.

    There is no reason to believe that the benevolent and caring Japanese government will do any better to watch over forests than they they did watching over their nuclear plants that pretty much created a toxic ocean environment for the whole world to enjoy.

    There is zero reason to have beautiful 250 year trees to be cut up into blades. The thing is sometimes someone has to raise voice to counter those who, for their own personal profit, are helping to destroy the environment that we and our children will live in.

    I hope some players agree with me. What is often said is that it is practice that matters not the equipment.
    So, this thread is for anyone who would like to post on the lumber industry and different practices on harvesting trees around the world. Perhaps it is about the woods used in table tennis blades and which woods cause the most damage to the eco system.

    Or perhaps it is for richrf who seems to be very disturbed by the marketing of a few TT companies who claim to use 250 year old trees to make Hinoki blades.

    Whatever the subject, if you have good information to present on how the manufacture of TT blades affects the world eco system, go ahead and post.

    So far, I have not seen richrf post any factual information about any of this, but here is his chance to go research and find out what he can about this subject.

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  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #2
    Here is some of the silliness that lead to this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    The 250 year Kiri Hinoki tree haters are out in force.

    Do you have something against 250 year old trees that make our Earth more beautiful and healthy for ourselves and our children, or is winning the point the most important thing that you can think of in your life? Just wondering about your priorities? Clearly blade manufacturers care more about the extra money they can make by cutting up old trees.
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    I have 3 forest parcels arrond the contry. They have been forests for long centuries. On of them is slowly going off because of natural processes aside from cutting. The regional forest agency officer is helping to arrange sanitary cutting of trees near ti die. The other 2 parcels are in best shape and I love them. And this best shape is only due to the competent care of the forest specialist. Every year trees of different age, or part of them are cut, for different reasons - age, deseases, new trees growing, etc. The timber goes for different purposes - some for furniture, building, even art, some for heating. But the forest looks as nice as it could be. So don't think that cutting in civilized countries is a not controlled bandit action. We have a lot of forests and national parks where only sanitary cutting by authorirties is permitted. And the timber, if useble goes to application too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop
    Let's be realistic, that 250 year tree stuff is probably marketing propaganda to sell blades. There is all kinds of checks and balances in the system to prevent cutting of 250 year old treasure's.

    I don't have a problem with saving all the trees, let's be consistently environmental friendly, let's ban all wood paddles, use artificial materials which are biologically safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    If course it is marketing propaganda. The point is that Xiom and other manufacturers are fully convinced that there is a constituency in the market place that gets their kicks by cutting up 250 year old Kiri Hinoki trees. Whether or not there are proper checks in a world run amok for money, I have no idea, but I doubt it. Money rules and there appears to be a sufficient number of players out there to encourage chopping up great trees to make a trophy blade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop
    The furniture maker's and home product builder's who are a lot wealthier than ping pong manufacturer's would have first choice on any 250 year old tree relic's wood. The ping pong manufacturer would get leftovers at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    @Suga D Thank you for the correction. Yes, it is the 250 year old Kiso Hinoki trees that Xiom and others are cutting up and bragging about. Is it that they are 250 years old that gives players the extra "magical" feeling? Xiom obviously believes it does since they make a special point of advertising this and nothing else about the composition of their new blades. I actually wrote to them to verify this but they never replied. Maybe someone else should try to verify especially if they are looking for that 250 year old magic?

    BTW, I am well aware that there is a significant portion part of the population that gets their kicks out of cutting up magnificent old trees for bragging rights but thanks for the confirmation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suga D
    It's not so much about bragging rights but rather a feeling that is unrivaled in the eyes of very few.

    But what i think is, instead of worrying about trees that are very well protected through sustainable foresting and gardening your energy could be more useful fighting for trees that aren't so protected like in the amazone rainforest or in Borneo, where whole forests are cut down for palm oil plantations which decreases the habitat of orang-utan and others and makes their population number decrease.
    That just makes a little more sense than fighting against something that's under protection already, IMHO.
    This rather reminds me a bit of Don Quijote
    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    I'm quite aware about that "magical feeling". It's no different than that magical feeling of cutting up an elephant for ivory. It's always about the feeling. I'm just suggesting that differenyt people get different feelings when Xiom and other manufacturers carve up beautiful and old trees so they can charge extra money for a blade. Give credit to some manufacturers for understanding that not everyone gets that magical feeling when imagining that magnificent tree being carved up.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttpshot
    Been a Gergery user for almost all my life. I've also seen and used a few single ply Hinoki PH blades as there are many JPH players in Japan. When you talk about using 100-300 years old Hinoki, it's usualy for single-ply blades as the Hinoki characterictics are toned down somewhat in multi-ply blades.

    As for saving the forest thing. Old Hinoki forests are state owned and controlled in Japan as other members of the forums have pointed out. 300 years old Hinoki will not be used for Shrines and bath tabs anymore so many of the historical shrines are using Sugi instead of Hinoki for restoration. Thank you for caring, but seriously, how much knowledge do you have regarding forestry industry in Japan apart from trees good people bad stuff? Please save your Maples and Rosewoods and Mahoganys beofre saving Hinoki in Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by richrf
    I thought it was suggested that commentary on this subject should be brought to a different thread? When it is moved, I have a final thought on this subject.

    There is no reason to believe that the benevolent and caring Japanese government will do any better to watch over forests than they they did watching over their nuclear plants that pretty much created a toxic ocean environment for the whole world to enjoy.

    There is zero reason to have beautiful 250 year trees to be cut up into blades. The thing is sometimes someone has to raise voice to counter those who, for their own personal profit, are helping to destroy the environment that we and our children will live in.

    I hope some players agree with me. What is often said is that it is practice that matters not the equipment.

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    #3
    Why is it sillyness?

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  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #4

    Save the Rainforest

    Quote Originally Posted by Herbert
    Why is it sillyness?
    Well, maybe the subject of the trees isn’t. But the continual reverting to a statement about 250 year old trees without any research on the subject and despite information that the trees are protected by the Japanese government; the comparing of cutting down trees to killing elephants for Ivory; the comparing of cutting down trees with mismanagement of nuclear waste....well....without proper research we don’t know:

    1) if they have cut down trees that old recently.
    2) when the last 250 year old tree was cut down.
    3) if those older trees were dying and that is why they were cut down.

    So many things that jumping to a conclusion without research can cause.

    I won’t use a bad analogy like: the people who are so adamant about abortion never being acceptable because it is murder, that they kill the doctors who perform abortions. Because this isn’t like that.

    But not being able to see any reason for an abortion and insisting all abortions are bad without any research isn’t that far from what is going on here.

    But, those who are interested can and should do the research. Then, if the research is presented, that will not be silliness. But knee-jerk statements without research on the subject, imposed over and over, on a thread where the subject was something completely different, well, that is silliness.

    I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

    So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.

    So, I suggest, for this thread, that both sides do there research and if either side is mad, wait 12 hours before posting and try to post based on facts and research. Without anger or name calling. That will never help.

    And if that is done, this could end up being an interesting thread.

    But the messages I quoted, I think that is silliness.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-05-2017 at 04:05 PM.
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    #5
    By doing this I feel you're mocking richf, which isn't right. It isn't right at all.
    Who cares if it's silly, you don't need to go "look how silly!" and make a whole post about it, it's not right.

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  6. Der_Echte is offline
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    #6
    Who called Paul Bunyan to TTD at the ready ???

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

    So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.
    I guess you're right, and maybe i shouldn't let myself be triggered so easily. Sometimes it's just too hard to resist. At one point i wasn't even sure if i was argueing with a human or with a bot...

    It probably won't make any difference, but maybe just one more statement to my defense:
    Anyone who will read carefully will find out, that actually i was countering richrf's irrational attacks and wasn't attacking richrf first.

    Nevertheless, glad you opened this thread here. Looking forward to it.

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    Last edited by Suga D; 12-05-2017 at 04:40 PM.

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #8

    Save the Rainforest

    Suga D, I do get where you were coming from and that what you were doing was a response. However, richrf did not call names even after being called names. That stuff does tend to escalate an argument rather than moving it towards useful discussion. But it does take someone who is mature to own up when they were a part of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightzy
    By doing this I feel you're mocking richf, which isn't right. It isn't right at all.
    Who cares if it's silly, you don't need to go "look how silly!" and make a whole post about it, it's not right.
    It seems you miss my point. I have criticized both sides of the argument. Both sides were operating from an emotional response. Not a well thought out, well reasoned or even remotely researched position.

    The name calling and attacks were part of what was silly. But statements comparing tree farming to the killing of elephants and nuclear waste, I think both sides did their fair share of silliness.

    Whereas, with good research, with actual facts, and discussion on the actual subject, it could be a great discussion and we all might learn a little about the the effect on the earth’s eco system that the TT blade making industry has. We may actually come to understand better the size of the ecological footprint that blade making has on the planet.

    That could be a very productive discussion.

    I actually gave richrf the option to open this thread himself. He seems to have declined but stated that if it was opened FOR HIM, he would have more to say.

    I opened the door how I did. Now it is up to you guys to raise the level of the conversation and stop throwing mud.


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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 12-05-2017 at 04:55 PM.
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    #9
    I still can't find the "silliy" component in any statement.
    Statements are as they are. Some are true, some are wrong.
    And mine is a 100% true.
    "Silly" label is nothing but a rude oppose.

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    #10
    Well, i was being silly by getting carried away by my emotions. That shouldn't happen.
    It's not a way how grown ups should discuss, no matter what. Therefore i must apologise for that.
    So @richrf, if you got something productive to bring to the table i'm all ears.

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    #11
    Relax, tree-hugging table tennis players of the world. I have your solution right here. Your welcome. See you on the tables.

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    #12
    The solution is the Shilkrot 900. See my review.

    Second post from bottom of page 1.

    http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5437

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Well, maybe the subject of the trees isn’t. But the continual reverting to a statement about 250 year old trees without any research on the subject and despite information that the trees are protected by the Japanese government; the comparing of cutting down trees to killing elephants for Ivory; the comparing of cutting down trees with mismanagement of nuclear waste....well....without proper research we don’t know:

    1) if they have cut down trees that old recently.
    2) when the last 250 year old tree was cut down.
    3) if those older trees were dying and that is why they were cut down.

    So many things that jumping to a conclusion without research can cause.

    I won’t use a bad analogy like: the people who are so adamant about abortion never being acceptable because it is murder, that they kill the doctors who perform abortions. Because this isn’t like that.

    But not being able to see any reason for an abortion and insisting all abortions are bad without any research isn’t that far from what is going on here.

    But, those who are interested can and should do the research. Then, if the research is presented, that will not be silliness. But knee-jerk statements without research on the subject, imposed over and over, on a thread where the subject was something completely different, well, that is silliness.

    I do also see that richrf was continually attacked for his opinion by Suga D who also wears his heart on his shirt and sometimes responds too soon as well.

    So, some of it is was about fire vs fire and that doesn’t work.

    So, I suggest, for this thread, that both sides do there research and if either side is mad, wait 12 hours before posting and try to post based on facts and research. Without anger or name calling. That will never help.

    And if that is done, this could end up being an interesting thread.

    But the messages I quoted, I think that is silliness.

    Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
    My suggestion would be to start with changing the topic title. If you want this to become a serious discussion about the origin of the materials used in table tennis equipment manufacturing.

    Now you're making it look like a joke-topic to make fun of certain people. (desired effect : post by countrybread? I'm not sure if that post is meant to be funny or just dumb). It doesn't really stimulate people to do research or contribute in a usefull way (for both sides of the argument).


    ----

    Let me start the discussion with a general broad basic statement (that is not based on 100% accurate scientific evidence, to be clear):
    If we look at the use of different materials, be it iron, steel, coal, oil, ... The proces always starts with a type of raw material which is mined/farmed/... and processed to a finished product. Some of these raw materials regenerate their supply to a certain degree (for exemple wood, rubber, ...) and some of these materials can be reused up to a certain degree (for exemple metal). To achieve a durable cycle, the demand is the same as the supply and the supply regenerates itself or the waste materials are enough to be fed back into the production proces (as supply). But I believe that modern day demands are a lot higher then what a durable supply can provide. Compared to materials like coal or plastic (oil), wood is probably one of the materials that is already way ahead on being durable. But I believe that this is not the case on a global scale.

    Maybe this is a starting point on which we can build the topic?
    Do you agree? Do you disagree? Why?
    Which types of wood are being commonly used in TT manufacturing? Where do they come from? How are they produced? How long does it take to grow? How is the supply maintained?

    I'm just brainstorming here, but this might become an interesting topic after all.

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    #14
    Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop
    Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.
    The mechanics in tennis and TT are very different.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    The mechanics in tennis and TT are very different.
    Does not means TT cant get benefit from new materials inspired from Tennis.

    I agree with loop, we should try them.

    Cornilleau start loong ago, in Their Tacteo Series.

    Btw,

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=6s&v=KCw3nZILMGM

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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MDP
    My suggestion would be to start with changing the topic title. If you want this to become a serious discussion about the origin of the materials used in table tennis equipment manufacturing.
    I think you made an excellent post. And, I do think you have a point in this statement.

    However, if you read the posts that I quoted, at the start of this thread, the trolling and the arguing, I am not sure it started with the people in that thread making an honest attempt at a deeper discussion. I think it will be great if it can go there though.

    But the reason I started the thread myself is that, one of the people who kept on seeming irate that other people didn’t seem to care much about his position, and kept hijacking the thread, when he was directed to make the thread himself, his response was that he would have something to say when someone else made the thread for him.

    If he had made a thread on the subject, perhaps it would have been different.


    When I made the thread, was I poking fun at the real subject? No! Was I poking fun at the people who were creating the disturbance. Sure. But if anyone wants to make comments that elevate the discussion, I think that is fine. And if anyone wants to make their own thread on the subject that starts off more seriously, I think that would be fine too.

    There are lots of threads on equipment for beginners. Why can’t there be another thread that starts differently on this subject.

    Go for it.

    And I do think your discussion about resources where the source can regenerate in comparison to resources that cannot, is a pretty useful place to start with this subject.

    And the point that, while we can plant new trees when we cut other trees down, we may not be able to replace a tree that was 250 years old, has a place. But in the other thread, most of what was going on wasn’t useful discussion and was lead by emotional responses from both sides.


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    #18
    I love my hinoki top ply - don't dare try to take it away from me, you tree huggers! You will have to saw off my hand with the blade in it!

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    #19
    claiming companies that are "false advertising" (250yr.....) with no proof is pure slander and nothing more
    thats where I stop reading
    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 12-07-2017 at 08:34 PM.
    BYE BYE

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loopadoop
    Why not allow materials that are used in regular Tennis to be used for TT paddles ? They last longer than wood paddles, won't damage when rubber is removed, don't damage as easy on the edges.
    Then one would want a table tennis ball to be like a tennis ball too, it would last longer too

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    BYE BYE

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