European Players & Tacky Rubbers

jawien said:

Forgive me my ignorant question, but my understanding is that, it is really hard to play pro or semi-pro level, with regular versions of China originated rubbers, without some kind of a booster right? At least this is what I learned from local players who used them. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

How can Europeans even try to learn to play this way, if they have limited access to those national versions that are ITTF approved and are good "on their own", and do not require any of that?

Note.
The question above represents of course a simplified view (why some people use this or that). I think, the real inner workings of this process can be seen by using socio-economic analysis @OhWell and @Zeio described earlier. I guess with some elements of "sport politics". I hope we'll have a chance (and time) to comment on it more : )

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Provincial and national Hurricane are widely accessible nowadays. TT11 has them all. Authentic products as TT11 is an DHS authorized seller.

Passionate about TT

My last "simplified" questions so are the answers. My fault, I asked for it : )


Going back to serious analysis.

OhWell said:

1. If ITTF cared, they could regulate the availability of h3 nat. Let's not even get into boosters. Let's just talk about sponge + topsheet combination. It doesn't take fancy equipment to figure out the blue sponge isn't the stock Neo sponge. But if they wanted, they could go further and assign regulated numbers to sponges just like for topsheets.

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I guess this echos in the podcasts with Gauzy and Person. However sponge was never subject for certification. I assume T3 and LARC are only for rubbers and VOC free glue.

OhWell said:

2. It's obvious why Butterfly and the like want their players to use their regular rubbers: selling those rubbers is a very lucrative business, and getting players to use them is good marketing. [...]

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I think this is an important point, shows the economics behind, which is the real deal I guess.

zeio said:

[...] CNT once mandated Friendship to not make the 755, the long pips used by Deng Yaping, available to the market. I doubt the ITTF knew about it back in the days.

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I does not make sense from the business point of view does it?

zeio said:

2. For that, you need to understand the difference in volume DHS has to churn out. [...]

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OhWell said:

About 2: we are on the same page. DHS’s business model for rubbers relies on extreme volume, whereas Bty/ESN’s relies on higher margins per unit sold.

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Sounds reasonable, but you think there would be no market for those blue sponges in Europe/US/Jap? Just this sheer reliance on volume would be enough for them? Why DHS shouldn't use the Bty/ESN’s business model for nationals too?

OhWell said:

[...] they can’t hide behind the detection excuse like for boosters. I should add, im inclined to think we should try to understand the ittf’s approach to booster from their approach to cnt rubbers.

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Could you describe it a bit more? Few years ago the equipment used were those boxes, they were supposedly detect banned substances in the air. Now there is this rubber "uniformity" detection gauge.


I think the discussion shows how complicated current situation is. You think you want to follow the regulations and just stay "Kosher", if you try to analyze it sometimes you might feel like a tiny pawn on a huge chessboard of big business actually. In the middle of all of this are the superb athletes like ML, FZD, Timo doing their best ...

@Note. Guys, specially when you describe those different connections, I wouldn't go too far with the conclusions on this public forum ; ) but I get the overall picture and specially points I emphasized above.

ITTF didn't authorize the sponge first right after the glue ban. People used that as an excuse to justify that they were boosting only the sponge and the ITTF couldn't enforce the rule as the LARC applied to the topsheet only. ITTF said no. Sharara's stance was that chemical treatment applied to the sponge stretches the sponge, and stretching the sponge stretches the topsheet as well, which is considered physical treatment. They were quick to amend the T4 to extend the authorization to the sponge as well.

The problem? Sharara said all of that is okay as long as it's done at the factory-level. Ya, he just had to open the pandora's box. There is no way to tell if the booster was applied during manfacturing or after it's shipped. What now? In 2017, they amended the T4 again to "threaten" those that dare to sell them.

The Attack 8 used by Fukuhara is said to be specially supplied by Armstrong. You couldn't get it on the market. Sriver topsheet with Bryce sponge was provided to Wang Hao. You couldn't get it on the market. Not making them available to the market makes perfect sense from their perspective. Winning medals is all that matters to them. They don't give a dime about market economy. The US market is so small it doesn't even compare to Taiwan. To put it bluntly, the US is a 3rd world country in table tennis.

zeio said:

ITTF didn't authorize the sponge first right after the glue ban. People used that as an excuse to justify that they were boosting only the sponge and the ITTF couldn't enforce the rule as the LARC applied to the topsheet only. ITTF said no. Sharara's stance was that chemical treatment applied to the sponge stretches the sponge, and stretching the sponge stretches the topsheet as well, which is considered physical treatment. They were quick to amend the T3 to extend the authorization to the sponge as well.

The problem? Sharara said all of that is okay as long as it's done at the factory-level. Ya, he just had to open the pandora's box. There is no way to tell if the booster was applied during manfacturing or after it's shipped. What now? In 2017, they amended the T3 again to "threaten" those that dare to sell them.

The Attack 8 used by Fukuhara is said to be specially supplied by Armstrong. You couldn't get it on the market. Sriver topsheet with Bryce sponge was provided to Wang Hao. You couldn't get it on the market. Not making them available to the market makes perfect sense from their perspective. Winning medals is all that matters to them. They don't give a dime about market economy. The US market is so small it doesn't even compare to Taiwan. To put it bluntly, the US is a 3rd world country in table tennis.

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That is disrespectful to third world countries.

Baal said:

That is disrespectful to third world countries.

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Agreed. I understand the intent, but there are better ways of phrasing the point. If the markets of third world countries didn't matter, people wouldn't invest in them.

NextLevel said:

Agreed. I understand the intent, but there are better ways of phrasing the point. If the markets of third world countries didn't matter, people wouldn't invest in them.

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Was that it, or was it that the US TT market is so much smaller than the market in many 3rd world countries that, perhaps the US TT market is 4th or 5th world.

zeio said:

ITTF didn't authorize the sponge first right after the glue ban. People used that as an excuse to justify that they were boosting only the sponge and the ITTF couldn't enforce the rule as the LARC applied to the topsheet only. ITTF said no. Sharara's stance was that chemical treatment applied to the sponge stretches the sponge, and stretching the sponge stretches the topsheet as well, which is considered physical treatment. They were quick to amend the T3 to extend the authorization to the sponge as well.

The problem? Sharara said all of that is okay as long as it's done at the factory-level. Ya, he just had to open the pandora's box. There is no way to tell if the booster was applied during manfacturing or after it's shipped. What now? In 2017, they amended the T3 again to "threaten" those that dare to sell them.

The Attack 8 used by Fukuhara is said to be specially supplied by Armstrong. You couldn't get it on the market. Sriver topsheet with Bryce sponge was provided to Wang Hao. You couldn't get it on the market. Not making them available to the market makes perfect sense from their perspective. Winning medals is all that matters to them. They don't give a dime about market economy. The US market is so small it doesn't even compare to Taiwan. To put it bluntly, the US is a 3rd world country in table tennis.

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Hey Zeio, so much great insight.
I read the post "okay as long as it's done at the factory-level" (is Adham the Adham? : ). So according to this comment (and I believe this is the current situation?) if someone uses "boosters", VOC free or not, at the factory level it is ok. Further, it does not matter if they are used just to attach sponge to the topsheet? Or is it a part of the additional T3 amend to "threaten" those that dare to sell them" - could you resend it, cause when I click it, there is just a blank page? I mean they would have to go further with the rules about the production process.

Are the "vegetable - VOC free" booster really the case? I mean do they really exist, I don't know - Haifu oils? If yes, than the whole situation, when you thing about it is just as "unreasonable" as it gets. ITTF bans speed glue and boosters for health reasons. Someone comes up with VOC free stuff and it is STILL NOT ok. One may want to ask what is actually going on?

Would you agree with me that European/Jap (and players from other parts of the world ; ) are basically at a disadvantage. I mean they have to rely on the suppliers who simply operate in the pure "marketing regime", and simply want them to play with rubbers, that would also be appealing for more general audience? Fukuhara or Den Yaping situation, simply has no rationale.
But maybe I'm off here too ... before the ban there was Mark V, Sriver ... everybody could use it and European players were doing pretty good in the world ... hmm.

Note. One last remark - Carl and few other guys will hate me for saying it ... easy guys ... ; ) but this foggy situation and somewhat murky explanations made by main institutions, is something that makes me think games like "ping pong" are so much better off. Even though I really like my TB ALC with Xiom OAV ...

Perhaps the Lord and the Lumberjack will feel better after watching this. Watch it in full if possible, as it gives a genuine view of why lives are so hard now for people in the US and Canada from the perspective of a Caucasian living in China.

On new year's eve, a long-time member started a thread on HKTTF, listing the things that were different between China and Hong Kong table tennis forums. Well, it was pretty much a ranting thread as it pointed out the only thing Hong Kong forums are good at is chitchating, but never get into discussion, only using the forum for finding people to join game nights for their own monetary gain.

Given yours truly has engaged in discussion on forums in mainland China, Hong Kong, and North America, I took a stab at giving my opinion. I described the atmosphere on local forums "as being worse than third world countries." People knew it deep down and sooner or later, someone had to play the bad guy, but no one was dumb enough to say it.

It wasn't pretty. The very next reply was a satirical post aimed at me, saying I was all talk, when I'd already referenced the post about a local rich kid training at Werner Schlager Academy and translating the advice Werner Schlager gave him, as well as William Henzell's experience of training abroad that I felt could be beneficial to our local players.

I'm sure I've angered a lot of people, but in the process, I got the attention of the folks who own the forum, and they started putting in changes. They started threads to kickstart discussion just like how Dan does it here. They changed the forum logo. Is the atmosphere better now? Nope. Only several people took part in the Team World Cup thread. Hong Kong is ranked 7th and 4th in men's and women's team ranking, for crying out loud. People don't even care if WCT is overrated except this one dude, and he's emigrated to Australia! That's exactly the problem Bobrow pointed out in his interview.

Whatever the outcome, that thread was a big motivator. I started my youtube channel because of it and why I finally joined TTD after so many years.

zeio said:

Perhaps the Lord and the Lumberjack will feel better after watching this.

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Zeio, please don't get distracted. I value your insight and hope for your response.

Comment like the one above are a little provocative (sorry to say it) in a way, that they already assume your bad intentions. We had a whole different topic about it already.

So don't worry. Please concentrate on the core discussion - so interesting ; )

Wetwork_Orange said:

Please indulge me, just what is this supposed "90s way of thinking"?

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Basically, the philosophy in training, gameplay, style...etc. Think of table tennis from a macro perspective.

To put it bluntly, the US is a 3rd world country in table tennis.

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I think he really meant it. To generalize a bit more US is not only a 3rd world in table tennis , but also badminton, soccer, cricket, horse polo, hurling, team handball, rugby, you name it... What a stupid blunt statement!

tropical said:

I think he really meant it. To generalize a bit more US is not only a 3rd world in table tennis , but also badminton, soccer, cricket, horse polo, hurling, team handball, rugby, you name it... What a stupid blunt statement!

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I think Zeio meant "third division" ....... ha ha ; )

Just kidding ; )
US Men 2nd division.
US Women are in the Championship one : )

Wetwork_Orange said:

Please indulge me, just what is this supposed "90s way of thinking"?

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Several examples,

"Every beginner should start with Grubba and Sriver, no thicker than 1.8 mm"

"Do not ever use Tenergy as first rubber for beginner."

"Use of pips should've been banned in Children competition"

And list keep getting longer.

Note that I differentiate Stuck in 90s Coach from Clueless Coach. Only Clueless Coach say something like, "Start playing with Wakaba."

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I was a bit tongue in cheek in my last post FWIW.

Out of curiosity, have there been any Chinese Provincial players who have moved out of China and switched to Tenergy?

Baal said:

I was a bit tongue in cheek in my last post FWIW.

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Hahahahahahahahaha!

VSDG said:

Out of curiosity, have there been any Chinese Provincial players who have moved out of China and switched to Tenergy?

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I think so - Eugene Wang (Zhen) and Lei Kou comes to mind. I am sure there are others.

Baal said:

I was a bit tongue in cheek in my last post FWIW.

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So I guess Zeio and I took it the wrong way - nice one actually : ) Talking about a self deprecating humor ... ; )
He wrote such a long post to defend himself unnecessary. I was hoping for such a long post in reply to my question ; )

VSDG said:

Out of curiosity, have there been any Chinese Provincial players who have moved out of China and switched to Tenergy?

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You mean fully developed player right? I have a little insight into our (polish) Women league and can't think of any girl from China who would do that. We have now about 15 years old player in our club, she uses her China rubbers (she has a Chinese coach as well).

Although I would imagine on the amateur level, or semi-pro it would be easier to switch from Hurricanes to Tenergies than the other way around.

@NextLevel, Kou Lei plays for the Ukraine, it is really the case for him?