Dimitrij Ovtcharov using Hurricane rubber at World Cup 2016!

[tikitiki]

You must have a faulty nose. I would send it back. Different rubbers smell different, and some have very clear booster smells.

That aside, I sort-of agree with some of what you say, but not your conclusion. I think some people have an odd idea of what "factory boosted" means, and conflate manufacturing processes (ESN, Butterfly) with after-production boosting (Haifu, probably DHS), putting it all in the same pot, which is OK as long as you're clear about the distinction IMO.

But anyway - for me, factory boosting isn't just taking a vanilla product we can all buy and doing something special to it, it's treating the rubber with a physical or chemical process which is designed to add "tension" by expanding it. Could be adding something to a finished product, or using something during manufacturing, whatever. This will always be a short/medium term effect depending on what was used. The give-away is that the rubber shrinks after a time, most noticeable when you've had it on a blade for several months and remove it. Initial signs could also be the smell, and any signs of the rubber curling or doming out of the packet, but these aren't reliable and their absence doesn't mean that the rubber hasn't been expanded. Many boosters are odourless.

ESN had a phase where their rubbers didn't have a particular smell (just a vague chemical whiff), but had a lot of doming out of the packet, very noticeable on their softer-sponged products (aurus sound, rakza 7 soft, etc). Annoying to glue down. Then they had a phase where the rubber came flat out of the packet, but there was a very strong and obvious booster smell (TRF booster), and the rubber's performance drops over time (Bluefire M, Evolution -P, Joola MAXX, Gewo Nanoflex - I'm really surprised that you can't smell this on MX-P, it's blindingly obvious). Since then, many more recent ESN don't have the TRF smell (MX-S, Rakza X, Omega V, lots and lots of others), but that doesn't mean they aren't using an odorless booster. Who knows? I've also noticed that they don't shrink as much as they used to over time - I've got a few sheets of Omega V Asia which are one year old now, off their blades, and they still fit perfectly.

About Butterfly - Tenergy has a smell when fresh out of the packet, but it's more like a faint smell of pine, and running your finger over the sponge has a slightly oily feel (in comparison with other rubbers). The big red flag is how much tenergy shrinks over time. IMO, it's definitely factory boosted (meaning the sponge is expanded as part of the process, and the effect is going to dissipate over time, not that some random bloke takes tenergy sheets off the production line and brushes the sponge with haifu oil or some nonsense like that). This isn't me having a go at Butterfly, and Tenergy is a great rubber, but the real world is what it is - modern rubbers are made like this, and the actions of the ITTF mean that you can't legally extend the life of your rubber by boosting personally. I also think that Butterfly have changed what they do with Tenergy over the years - I got my very first sheets on release day and they didn't have the pine smell, didn't shrink anywhere nearly as much, and kept their playing properties for longer (but were possibly slower - this is a few years ago now, so I can't expect perfect recall here). It's very hard to know anything for sure - even pros aren't allowed to see everything when they visit the factory (check Freitas' comments on this in his TTD podcast), but this is just my opinion based on what I see and feel.

For another interesting viewpoint, see this blog entry, linked from tak9.com today:

http://blog.naver.com/defunct/220830269324

It's a little blog entry (I presume from Nexy themselves) about Nexy Karis M, and their "insider" view on the recent history of rubber production. Not unbiased, but interesting nonetheless.

And this is without getting into the murky world of chinese-made rubber, after-production boosting of stuff by DHS for the CNT, or touching on recent made-in-japan stiga rubbers which have a pronounced curl reminiscent of early-gen ESN. And there are still rubbers on the market which don't shrink, and so I would imagine aren't factory boosted.

well you shouldn't call it boosting then.
boosting to me is taking a rubber that has already been finished and applying a product to it.
like haifu or falco.

if in the production of the sponge they apply a certain product that makes it more lively for some time then great, it's part of the process and perfectly fair.

it doesn't make sense that this product if it exists is falco or haifu.
falco and haifu say that their booster effect lasts at most 1 month.
most rubbers between the time they are produced and the time the final user gets them, it will be at least 3, 4 months.

many times you even get rubbers that have been produced one year before or more.
do you think falco or haifu would last this long?

personally I agree that a new mx.p will be really fast maybe the first month or so of usage.
it's what you get from a new rubber.
but I definitely don't think the reason for this is falco or haifu or any product like that.
-you would see a layer of something in the sponge
-the rubber would be curled
-the effect would last very little time
that's definitely what rubbers like haifu whale II do, but not tensors.

 

[Boogar]

well you shouldn't call it boosting then.
boosting to me is taking a rubber that has already been finished and applying a product to it.
like haifu or falco.

if in the production of the sponge they apply a certain product that makes it more lively for some time then great, it's part of the process and perfectly fair.

it doesn't make sense that this product if it exists is falco or haifu.
falco and haifu say that their booster effect lasts at most 1 month.
most rubbers between the time they are produced and the time the final user gets them, it will be at least 3, 4 months.

many times you even get rubbers that have been produced one year before or more.
do you think falco or haifu would last this long?

personally I agree that a new mx.p will be really fast maybe the first month or so of usage.
it's what you get from a new rubber.
but I definitely don't think the reason for this is falco or haifu or any product like that.
-you would see a layer of something in the sponge
-the rubber would be curled
-the effect would last very little time
that's definitely what rubbers like haifu whale II do, but not tensors.

It seems like you did not get what was said. And just because you definition of boosting is different, doesn't mean that its the right one.

 

[AndySmith]

It seems like you did not get what was said. And just because you definition of boosting is different, doesn't mean that its the right one.

Exactly. It's semantics to a large degree.

About the distinction between factory treatment and things you do at home - the point isn't that the factory use the same stuff that the public do (or the pros do, even) - they could use totally different chemicals, or the same chemicals in a different way, or at a different stage of the process. Doesn't matter. The factories supply some rubbers which shrink within a period of, what, 6 months? And some which do not. This suggests something, and we give it a blanket label of "factory tuning" or "factory boosting", but we do this without knowing the manufacturing processes involved, and without suggesting that they're just pouring falco over everything.

As regards the rules, the factory can do whatever they want (as long as the finished sheets meet ITTF regulations, of course). You have many factories producing rubbers which smell, look, feel, behave as boosted, with a tell-tale drop-off in performance. You have some, like Haifu, who offer tuned and untuned products, which give an insight into what they do internally (not the same approach as ESN, obviously). And then you have DHS, who offer a commercial product which doesn't 100% reflect the product the CNT ends up with (different sponges, obvious boosting). All within the rules, or at least undetectable infringements of the rules, but only because the rules are stupid and unenforceable.

 

[tikitiki]

I understand everything said habibi, it just doesn't sound logical.

 

[AndySmith]

I understand everything said habibi, it just doesn't sound logical.

Using words to describe situations might not sound logical to you, but it's how people communicate. It sometimes isn't perfect, but that's life. People use the label "factory boosted" to describe a wide range of things they see, feel and experience. And it's a useful label because it tells us something about how the product behaves and changes over time, even if people don't know what exactly goes on in the "factory". In the absence of a different term to use, it will have to do.

You seems to be suggesting something quite different and highly specific to you, so rather than ask people to stop using it, perhaps adjust your own self-imposed definition or come up with a new way to label rubbers which smell of booster and shrink in a short time frame after being supplied from the factory so people can continue to describe what they see, feel and experience. Because it's useful for people to say "MX-P seems factory boosted" - it allows us to distinguish it from rubbers which don't quickly (relatively) shrink and have sharp performance drop-offs.

 

[Boogar]

AH its the habibi guy... just ignore him he is a troll.

 

[tikitiki]

just do as I say and you'll be fine.
there's a saying in my country egypt "if it has wings and it flies, then it must be a turtle".

 

[AndySmith]

just do as I say and you'll be fine.
there's a saying in my country egypt "if it has wings and it flies, then it must be a turtle".

You have convinced me - from now on I'll say that these rubbers have been factory turtled.

 

[Suga D]

This suggests something, and we give it a blanket label of "factory tuning" or "factory boosting", but we do this without knowing the manufacturing processes involved, and without suggesting that they're just pouring falco over everything.

Aaahahahaaa. This' crackin' me up.
Now I can't get that pic out of my head anymore... LoL



[Emoji2]

All within the rules, or at least undetectable infringements of the rules, but only because the rules are stupid and unenforceable.

This statement actually deserves some kind of Award. Verbal gold.
Excellent Andy. Thank you.

 

[Baal]

Andy is right. I am sure also the things these companies do to get theit various boost effects are closely guarded secrets and are not all the same. When I used to be able to order T05 sheets from tt-japan they played better. One reason I switched to MX-P is Tenergy I could buy here was not as good. A loss of booster? I have no idea.

I agree also, if you can't smell the booster in MX-P there is something wrong with the sheets (or your nose) It is intense.. I don't know Rasant but for any rubber I have tried a loss of speed in one day would almost certainly have more to do with gluing technique than anything else. My rubbers properly glued never shrink on the blade. Tenergy 05 or MX-P. Don't stretch them when gluing! For some reason about 4 out of 5 times if I detach them from the blade and try to reuse them, their property is degraded.

 

[Baal]

The other thing is that I would bet a great deal that whatever they are doing with MX-P entails adding something to the sponge very late in the production process. Bear in mind also that ITTF only regulates topsheets, not sponges, except for the thickness. So, really, their rule against adding something to the sponge puts them in a logical bind. As far as I am concerned, boost away. I don't boost my rubbers because they don't need it, they come that way, but I don't care if you do.

 

[slevin]

For some reason about 4 out of 5 times if I detach them from the blade and try to reuse them, their property is degraded.

A tip: a big reason for this probably is the type of glue you use.

I have been trying Finezip but even though it is relatively easy to remove, it degrades sponge and the rubber is not so good to use the 2nd time. I am sure most commercially available WBGs (like Free Chack) are worse in this regard.

In contrast, Tearmender is the best glue in terms of minimal damage done to overall rubber characteristics.

 

[Baal]

A tip: a big reason for this probably is the type of glue you use.

I have been trying Finezip but even though it is relatively easy to remove, it degrades sponge and the rubber is not so good to use the 2nd time. I am sure most commercially available WBGs (like Free Chack) are worse in this regard.

In contrast, Tearmender is the best glue in terms of minimal damage done to overall rubber characteristics.

That could be it, but I am satisfied with Finezip/Free Chack 2 because I like the quality and ease of the attachment the first time, much more than Tearmender, and I don't switch around rubbers and blades except on quite rare occasions. My equipment use tends to be pretty stable over relatively long periods of time! I used Viscaria blades from 2007 until just a few months ago (to a different blade that frankly differs only in handle shape), and at that time I also switched from T05 to MX-P on my FH. I occasionally tested out a newer or older Viscaria and I could get a pretty good feel for the blade with a used rubber even if it was not as good as it had been just before detaching.

 

[tikitiki]

oh and for the guy who was saying that they have a magical secret process, that the new rubbers don't show the tensor bios sign anymore....
check andro rasant rubbers.
they have the tensor bios like always.
tibhar and donic probably hide it for marketing reasons, they want users to remember their brand, not the tensor sign.

 

[Baal]

oh and for the guy who was saying that they have a magical secret process, that the new rubbers don't show the tensor bios sign anymore....
check andro rasant rubbers.
they have the tensor bios like always.
tibhar and donic probably hide it for marketing reasons, they want users to remember their brand, not the tensor sign.

That is actually a good observation. Andro may also still be in some sort of marketing agreement that requires them to use the trademark, and maybe a similar agreement expired for Tibhar and Donic. It could suggest however, that the technology in Andro Rasant is not the same as in the Tibhar/Donic rubbers, although I strongly doubt that is the explanation).

Whatever it is, and you may be right, MX-P abd Bluefire are nothing at all like the earlier Tibhar/Donic rubbers that had the Bios trademark. And smell is part of the big difference,and that is a smell of booster.

I found this video that was kind of interesting, it doesn't say anything about a boost effect, but still pretty cool.

 

[t95mwp]

Here is the interesting blog about history of ESN rubbers.

http://blog.naver.com/defunct/220830269324

 

[Baal]

He has been talking about that new Karis rubber for awhile, it will be interesting to see what he has come up with.

i thought it was interesting that he mentioned that T05 has gotten softer in recent years. I think that is correct, it seemed like it wasn't the same as when I first started using it, but I wasn't sure.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yamato Clan or Tamasu Clan.

Original goon squad strong men.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hey a lot of great posts in this thread. Particularly from Baal and Andy. Outstanding stuff.

Here is the video from DTop to, hopefully, make some people laugh:

This one could help too:

Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[TTHopeful]

So much great posts. Tibhar dominating the non tenergy market via boosting rubbers in the factory... genius