European Loop vs Chinese Loop?

[V-Griper]

Here is my hypothesis-

The strongest correlation for whether or not a player tends to stroke with a straighter arm or one that is bent more is between the amount of bend in the preferred drive loop stroke and what grip the player uses for the FH.

FH biased grip- TB, DO, JM, MM etc...
Players who use a FH biased grip tend to optimize their drive loop around having a an arm bend between 90' and 110 degrees or so. Also utilizing a more whip crack kind of motion. There are a few exceptions but they tend employ some wrist manipulation to compensate if they straighten their arm.

Neutral/BH biased grip- WLQ, FZD,ZJk, ML, YA, FB, LSS etc...
Players who use a neutral or BH biased grip tend to optimize around their drive loops around a more open/extended arm say between 120' and 180'.

Seeing a trend? I thought so. No CNT player to my knowledge uses a FH biased grip on the FH. And a majority of European and Japanese players use a FH biased grip. I think this is the where the "Euro FH" vs "CN" debate has come from. It is true but not because there is some special magic but because their is a clustering effect around the grips that most of the players use and optimize their game around.

Try this for yourself. Stand facing the table. Hold a FH biased grip like Timo and straighten your arm out to the side with a straight wrist and the long axis of the paddle parallel with the floor or table. Notice how the paddle faces away from you slightly. Do not flex or extend your wrist. Now keep your arm straight and swing your arm forward until the paddle faces a point where if you were hitting a ball it would go cross court. Note that arm moves to a position almost straight in front of you before the paddle is in position to hit a cross court shot. Now start from the same initial position but bend your elbow instead. A lot more comfortable to do this but note your elbow bend.

Now do the same thing with a neutral or slight BH biased grip. Notice that it takes very little movement in a neutral grip before the paddle is facing cross court, less than half the rotation, and that you don't really have to bend your elbow. In fact the blade starts off pointing down the line and you can just rotate your torso just a tad and your paddle is facing cross court.

So what about ZJK's bent arm or Yan An? Well there strokes are shorter but they look nothing like Timo's or Maze's whip like motion.

My point is that players stroke mechanics are optimized around their grip and it's perceived advantages and disadvantages.

With regard to spin I think that the top CN spin the ball harder simply because they have to deliver more energy to the point of contact due to the hardness of the rubber. Basically the rubber requires more force to fully deform and so delivers more energy back to the ball which is mostly converted to spin. The trade off is that you have to keep your strokes within a certain swing speed range in order to fully utilize the rubbers ability to convert the energy into spin. This is why most amateurs probably can't fully utilize hard rubbers, or at least harder/boosted rubbers, because they can't maintain the high consistent swing speeds necessary to engage the rubber.

 

[GiorgosTT]

I'm reading about full arm swing vs half arm swing and I see little to no mention on the wrist movement of those strokes.

I believe (though I may be wrong) that one who prefers to play with a shorter swing, is using the wrist in a whip like motion, to accelerate the bat that extra bit before contact. When using longer or full arm swing, the wrist is relatively more stable.

The physics of it are very interesting, it's always nice to learn how things actually work!

 

[Der_Echte]

It is good you talk about wrist as that is VERY important for a shot to get maximum spin. Timing of acceleration is important. Generating momentum with the lower body using a wide base is important. We all pretty much accept that.

NONE of us really things about this as we hit or practice though, there isn't any time for that.

 

[XariuzCruz]

I tried both before. European style is indeed easier to execute, blocks better, but harder to lift backspin. Chinese style is more powerful, more spin, more speed, but very tiring if you do multiballs or several matches. I've saw a chinese video before, european looping style player such as jun mizutani struggled to put more speed in his stroke, the problem is he uses forearm only but not the whole arm. So that's why he lobs whenever he goes mid distance or further. While Xu Xin is the one that uses chinese style in every game( because he's chinese duhh ). He can even loop with tremendous spin while further away from table. Difference between those two is the usage of arm and elbow. European style uses elbow to 'drive' the stroke, while chinese style maintain elbow position to create bigger momentum(like a whip).
Hope you guys understand what i wrote lol. Sorry for my poor English

 

[SCORPION]

For chinese loop you have to do it with sticky rubber like hurricane
i think chinease loop better than European

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It looks to me like XariuzCruz and Scorpion should read some of the previous posts where so many people agreed that calling them Chinese and European loops is outdated and the idea that Japanese and Korean players are using Chinese or European loops sounds a little funny.

Also, the idea that you need tacky rubber for a full armed loop is also outdated and not true. And when you look at players from China like Ma Lin, Ma Long, Wang Liqin, Wang Hao, Zang Jike, Xu Xin, Fan Zhendong, Fang Bo and so many more, they all use different forehand technique.

Full arm and half arm loop makes sense. The idea that either technique can be done with any rubber is obvious once you have done both with a variety of different kinds of rubber.

But I would encourage those guys to read the previous posts because a lot of good information was presented on the subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[NextLevel]

Here is my hypothesis-

The strongest correlation for whether or not a player tends to stroke with a straighter arm or one that is bent more is between the amount of bend in the preferred drive loop stroke and what grip the player uses for the FH.

FH biased grip- TB, DO, JM, MM etc...
Players who use a FH biased grip tend to optimize their drive loop around having a an arm bend between 90' and 110 degrees or so. Also utilizing a more whip crack kind of motion. There are a few exceptions but they tend employ some wrist manipulation to compensate if they straighten their arm.

Neutral/BH biased grip- WLQ, FZD,ZJk, ML, YA, FB, LSS etc...
Players who use a neutral or BH biased grip tend to optimize around their drive loops around a more open/extended arm say between 120' and 180'.

Seeing a trend? I thought so. No CNT player to my knowledge uses a FH biased grip on the FH. And a majority of European and Japanese players use a FH biased grip. I think this is the where the "Euro FH" vs "CN" debate has come from. It is true but not because there is some special magic but because their is a clustering effect around the grips that most of the players use and optimize their game around.

Try this for yourself. Stand facing the table. Hold a FH biased grip like Timo and straighten your arm out to the side with a straight wrist and the long axis of the paddle parallel with the floor or table. Notice how the paddle faces away from you slightly. Do not flex or extend your wrist. Now keep your arm straight and swing your arm forward until the paddle faces a point where if you were hitting a ball it would go cross court. Note that arm moves to a position almost straight in front of you before the paddle is in position to hit a cross court shot. Now start from the same initial position but bend your elbow instead. A lot more comfortable to do this but note your elbow bend.

Now do the same thing with a neutral or slight BH biased grip. Notice that it takes very little movement in a neutral grip before the paddle is facing cross court, less than half the rotation, and that you don't really have to bend your elbow. In fact the blade starts off pointing down the line and you can just rotate your torso just a tad and your paddle is facing cross court.

So what about ZJK's bent arm or Yan An? Well there strokes are shorter but they look nothing like Timo's or Maze's whip like motion.

My point is that players stroke mechanics are optimized around their grip and it's perceived advantages and disadvantages.

With regard to spin I think that the top CN spin the ball harder simply because they have to deliver more energy to the point of contact due to the hardness of the rubber. Basically the rubber requires more force to fully deform and so delivers more energy back to the ball which is mostly converted to spin. The trade off is that you have to keep your strokes within a certain swing speed range in order to fully utilize the rubbers ability to convert the energy into spin. This is why most amateurs probably can't fully utilize hard rubbers, or at least harder/boosted rubbers, because they can't maintain the high consistent swing speeds necessary to engage the rubber.

This is definitely not what I see when I watch the players in terms of their grips so maybe some pictures would help.

 

[XariuzCruz]

It looks to me like XariuzCruz and Scorpion should read some of the previous posts where so many people agreed that calling them Chinese and European loops is outdated and the idea that Japanese and Korean players are using Chinese or European loops sounds a little funny.

Also, the idea that you need tacky rubber for a full armed loop is also outdated and not true. And when you look at players from China like Ma Lin, Ma Long, Wang Liqin, Wang Hao, Zang Jike, Xu Xin, Fan Zhendong, Fang Bo and so many more, they all use different forehand technique.

Full arm and half arm loop makes sense. The idea that either technique can be done with any rubber is obvious once you have done both with a variety of different kinds of rubber.

But I would encourage those guys to read the previous posts because a lot of good information was presented on the subject.

I dont know though. Since I started to learn table tennis via internet i saw lots of people saying about these two styles. From Chinese perspectives, especially those from china (I'm malaysian Chinese), the full arm loop is the perfect forehand loop stroke that everyone needs to learn. Why? More power and spin. I've saw a video on youtube before the coach says that Aruna's forehand stroke are the worst one. It IS powerful but only for Aruna only. Only Aruna can execute the stroke with such power and spin.

 

[NextLevel]

Watch Aruna vs. ZJK and tell me what the difference in the looping motions are.

 

[XariuzCruz]

Watch Aruna vs. ZJK and tell me what the difference in the looping motions are.

Aruna's stroke is quite big compared to ZJK. Aruna even jumps while ZJK still in balance during looping

 

[NextLevel]

Aruna's stroke is quite big compared to ZJK. Aruna even jumps while ZJK still in balance during looping

But I thought you said ZJK is the straight arm and Aruna is the bad loop. Why is the bigger motion the worse one?


Aruna's looping technique is not perfect, but the arm mechanics are very similar to the Chinese and his forehand is very effective.

 

[GiorgosTT]

Aruna's forehand is far from perfect, but not due to arm mechanics. It's his body he is using wrong.

Notice that often, when he is looping, he tilts his body to the side and backwards, instead of forward. Also he jumps back a lot. When your arm moves forward to execute the loop, but your body goes backwards, you actually lose power and spin.

Of course Aruna, being very strong physically, is still able to make a quality shot from this non-optimal (I don't want to use the word "wrong") forehand technique.

 

[Pnachtwey]

More power and spin

I bet you don't know the definition of power or what makes spin.
I know I generate more power for just about every stroke I make that those on the CNT and I don't care what type of stroke it is.
It is paddle speed that is important, not power. Spin is caused by the tangential component of impact relative to the ball.

It is hard to kill myths when the people you are trying to convince have no concept of physics.

 

[XariuzCruz]

Just giving some of my thoughts though.

 

[John18]

I bet you don't know the definition of power or what makes spin.
I know I generate more power for just about every stroke I make that those on the CNT and I don't care what type of stroke it is.
It is paddle speed that is important, not power. Spin is caused by the tangential component of impact relative to the ball.

It is hard to kill myths when the people you are trying to convince have no concept of physics.

In Physics, Power and Speed are related :
Power (W) = Force (N) . Speed (m/s)

 

[izra]

I bet you don't know the definition of power or what makes spin.
I know I generate more power for just about every stroke I make that those on the CNT and I don't care what type of stroke it is.
It is paddle speed that is important, not power. Spin is caused by the tangential component of impact relative to the ball.

It is hard to kill myths when the people you are trying to convince have no concept of physics.

people in this sport usually use the term power to describe a shot that is high in both speed and spin with emphasis on speed.

 

[NextLevel]

Aruna's forehand is far from perfect, but not due to arm mechanics. It's his body he is using wrong.

Notice that often, when he is looping, he tilts his body to the side and backwards, instead of forward. Also he jumps back a lot. When your arm moves forward to execute the loop, but your body goes backwards, you actually lose power and spin.

Of course Aruna, being very strong physically, is still able to make a quality shot from this non-optimal (I don't want to use the word "wrong") forehand technique.

I agree for the most part. However, XauriusCruz was citing Aruna in the context of straight arm vs. bent arm strokes. Aruna's stroke is the last stroke one should bring into this discussion.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Carl

The Chinese term is - Arc Ball, (or pull an arc ball)
In Taiwan it is Pull Ball

Arc Ball, meaning you are making a big arc
Pull ball, meaning you are pulling the ball (or brushing the ball over) the net

To the ones that thought my post of humorous, I actually laughed at that reading it again now

Now to the rest, in Chinese table tennis technique hand book (if I can call it),
there is constant development, improvement and especially for the new ball - adjustments.
Chinese FH is not Chinese FH of last year, or 2 years ago, or 3 or 5 or 10 years. Same applies to European FH
So that is why I say - this is old terminology and not valid for today's table tennis.

Now if you want to focus on Chinese FH of today, you will notice they prefer lower arc balls, with a more horizontal loop than oppose to vertical. But of course if the ball power is too much, and the ball bounces to "head height", of course the arc becomes higher and stroke is more vertical

So that means in a rally (10+ loops), you will see a mix of "Chinese loop and Euro loops" with different arc and contact point of the ball.

To sum it all up, the Chinese FH loop (if it is hybrid to Euro or not), it all applies to full resetting and able to continue the next stroke with even more power - mostly at the earliest contact point of the ball.
So if we want to debate, I would say, there is more differences (between Euro and Chinese) in the contact point of the ball, than oppose to FH technique differences. And this is due to better foot work, better fundamentals, and maintain highest form continuously (all those long hours of training), but the lifespam is not high.

Regarding Euro spin is less than Chinese spin.... not true, as at the highest level - the player who doesn't cope the ball better, will make the error and not being "out spun". There is no "more spin winning less spin" in high level, you only get this in amateur table tennis.

So table tennis of today has no better technique, but it is about how well you perform and get closes to your "highest" peak that counts and in the same time, make adjustments, read the service, service return, and some times just pure luck.

There is no European FH is weaker than Chinese FH, but similar some of the best FH players of today is Chinese, and the reason for they "better FH" is beyond just a FH stroke

 

[Pnachtwey]

My coach is from China. He has been in the US for about 1 year. He has NEVER mentioned Chinese loop or European Loop. He teaches what Bret Clarke calls the golden elbow. I am sure he was taught that over in the Chinese TT academy.

I have said this on other forums. It makes know difference what the stroke is. All that matters is the speed, direction and attitude of the paddle when it hits the ball. Everything before or after is irrelevant to the balls flight path. Having the correct stroke promotes consistency and minimizes recovery time.

I don't know why people persist with this Chinese/Euro loop non-sense.

people in this sport usually use the term power to describe a shot that is high in both speed and spin with emphasis on speed.

Yes I know but power is what I generate to move me. When i hit the ball the ball has kinetic energy. Kinetic energy in the form of rotational and translational. I generate more power on every stroke because I weigh more than the average person. Power = mass*acceleration*velocity. If I make contact with the ball at the same speed as a lighter person the ball will travel the same way all things being equal except I will need to generate much more power to do the same thing.

The most important thing is paddle speed if you want to transfer a lot of energy to the ball.

 

[ajtatosmano2]

I am a little offtopic but who is LSS at BH biased grip and MM at FH biased grip? Lee Sang Su and Morizono Masataka?