high and low throw rubbers

[UpSideDownCarl]

Long is not the same as high.

Yeah. I think that is an odd term. Not sure what that one means. If it goes long and the topspin doesn't pull the ball down than there is more speed than spin? But I am not sure that is what is meant. I don't really think high and low throw angle are needed as terms either even though I get what they are about. Long throw, I don't really care.

But the discussion about the terms: not so important in my book.


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[Tinykin]

And the answer to the OP question is?

Anyway, let me try based on what has been said above.
Low or high throw rubber quest depends on what TT strategy/tactics that you want to emphasise in your own overall game.
Low throw rubbers (T25FX, SP/MP stuff) excel at over the table drives, flicks and blocking. So good if you want to stick within a couple feet of he table and pressure your opponent with quick positioning plays. That is, forcing him to play strokes while out of position such as a BH when he wants to use a FH. The rubber has less arc (linear throw?) so the time from ball on bat to hitting the table is shorter so less reaction time for the opponent.
High throw rubbers (Stiga LT, H3) are more looping rubbers. LT tends to fall deeper with less spin than the H3 type which tends to fall shallower with more spin, all from the same effort. Thus why Euro rubbers tend to be easier for some playing styles as H3 type needs more effort away from the table to get that fast deep topspin. Your opponent will tend to have more time to react, plus the resulting stroke is more predictable in placement. Get it wrong, and your topspin will get slapped.
Medium throw stuff (T05, MXP) is more allround. That is, they are good enough at most offensive strokes so as not to force the user to play a particular style.
Long throw rubbers (T64). These tend to excel at looping strokes played from >3feet from table. At the table, one has to use the sponge (spinnier?) more when playing flicks etc Thus why defenders like this rubber on their FH and allrounders prefer it on their BH.

 

[RIPPER]

Interesting video great to see the differences

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Interesting video great to see the differences

It is interesting to see. But I think something is missing. Usually when you contact a ball--except on a block--the racket is not stationary.

I wonder what would happen if you could have a the racket at an angle like a loop, with a trajectory like a loop and the kind of contact you make when you loop, where you brush and at the same time get the ball to sink into the sponge (so deep brush contact), with the racket moving at a speed that approximates the speed and acceleration of the racket on a loop, where the sponge and topsheet kick in differently and you hear that corking sound from the rubber which means it has rebounded fast enough to make that sound (different than the sound of the wood on smack or smash contact).




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[NextLevel]

Anyway, let me try based on what has been said above.
Low or high throw rubber quest depends on what TT strategy/tactics that you want to emphasise in your own overall game.
Low throw rubbers (T25FX, SP/MP stuff) excel at over the table drives, flicks and blocking. So good if you want to stick within a couple feet of he table and pressure your opponent with quick positioning plays. That is, forcing him to play strokes while out of position such as a BH when he wants to use a FH. The rubber has less arc (linear throw?) so the time from ball on bat to hitting the table is shorter so less reaction time for the opponent.
High throw rubbers (Stiga LT, H3) are more looping rubbers. LT tends to fall deeper with less spin than the H3 type which tends to fall shallower with more spin, all from the same effort. Thus why Euro rubbers tend to be easier for some playing styles as H3 type needs more effort away from the table to get that fast deep topspin. Your opponent will tend to have more time to react, plus the resulting stroke is more predictable in placement. Get it wrong, and your topspin will get slapped.
Medium throw stuff (T05, MXP) is more allround. That is, they are good enough at most offensive strokes so as not to force the user to play a particular style.
Long throw rubbers (T64). These tend to excel at looping strokes played from >3feet from table. At the table, one has to use the sponge (spinnier?) more when playing flicks etc Thus why defenders like this rubber on their FH and allrounders prefer it on their BH.

Not sure I agree with this. Generally, high throw vs. low throw *equipment* as I understand it (and I am to some degree parroting William Henzell) is more about whether you primarily want to generate your own speed and spin or whether you want to primarily borrow your opponent's speed and spin. High throw equipment usually means relatively slow/slower blades and spinny rubbers. Low throw equipment usually means relatively fast blades and less spinny rubbers.

The kind of player who uses high throw equipment tends to be the kind of player who wants to be playing fast topspins all the time with some manipulation of the ball in the short game. Think Ma Lin or Timo Boll. The kind of player who uses low throw equipment tends to be the kind of player who wants to be borrowing the opponent's speed and spin and likes to push long and start reflecting the opponent's ball (think Samsonov who was known for his use of the Mazunov, or amongst women, Georgina Pota especially).

What you consider low throw is what I would consider short trajectory, but most of those IMO are outside the scope of this as they aren't inverted rubbers.

Tenergy 05 to me is clearly in the high throw camp, as is MX-P.

Stiga Calibra LT I would actually put with T64 in the long trajectory rubber camp, which I usually consider low/medium throw.


Again, all of this is based on personal opinion and use - not hard tests, and a lot of my technique has improved in recent times that make me reconsider some of this. But the general theme for all low throw rubbers/equipment is that you need more upward motion in your shot to create topspin, so it makes it harder to get things going, but when it comes to blocking and fast placement of incoming spins, they are pretty good. High throw equipment allows you to swing more consistently forward on most shots even spin oriented ones.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

Anyway, let me try based on what has been said above.
Low or high throw rubber quest depends on what TT strategy/tactics that you want to emphasise in your own overall game.
Low throw rubbers (T25FX, SP/MP stuff) excel at over the table drives, flicks and blocking. So good if you want to stick within a couple feet of he table and pressure your opponent with quick positioning plays. That is, forcing him to play strokes while out of position such as a BH when he wants to use a FH. The rubber has less arc (linear throw?) so the time from ball on bat to hitting the table is shorter so less reaction time for the opponent.
High throw rubbers (Stiga LT, H3) are more looping rubbers. LT tends to fall deeper with less spin than the H3 type which tends to fall shallower with more spin, all from the same effort. Thus why Euro rubbers tend to be easier for some playing styles as H3 type needs more effort away from the table to get that fast deep topspin. Your opponent will tend to have more time to react, plus the resulting stroke is more predictable in placement. Get it wrong, and your topspin will get slapped.
Medium throw stuff (T05, MXP) is more allround. That is, they are good enough at most offensive strokes so as not to force the user to play a particular style.
Long throw rubbers (T64). These tend to excel at looping strokes played from >3feet from table. At the table, one has to use the sponge (spinnier?) more when playing flicks etc Thus why defenders like this rubber on their FH and allrounders prefer it on their BH.

if high throw rubbers are for playing far from table, shouldn't players be using low throw rubbers for bh and high throw rubber for fh?
since everybody hits bh earlier and closer to the table than fh.

I think it depends on the level.
super high level would use high throw in the bh because they make a "loop" movement in every shot.
And they have less space for the ball to land on the other side.
so they need a rubber that makes that curve and then drops.
that's what the modern bh is all about.
that's why we see tons of 05, 64 on the bh of pros and no 25.

for the fh they don't really need that curve since they have more time to prepare the exact shot they want.
I remember koki niwa used 25 in the fh for a while, with 05 in the bh.

now for amateur players who don't loop much frmo the bh it's better to have a low throw rubber which makes flat shots easier as well as blocks.
for fh really it's the same, whatever is comfortable to you.

so really the closer to the table the higher throw you want (for looping).
if you are not looping the closer to the table the lower throw you want.
short pips are the lowest throw rubbers in the world.
and guess what, they are used by players who play really close to the table and don't loop.

 

[BeGo]

Well, the video may proof some rule that I get it wrong.
- I always count throw by initial throw, so basically, throw numbers means how close should I close the blade on block so the ball stay low, < 2 * net height. Throw distance means how well my blade absorb ball speed to prevent too long shots
- because with my 1.1 mm Butterfly Tackiness Chop 2 I should do 60 deg close blade, Butterfly Tackiness Chop 1.7 mm 45 deg, Dhs Hurricane 3 20 deg, and 729 Dr Evil 10 deg, I suspect tacky or grippy rubber on thin hard sponge means high launch, and thicker and softer sponge lower the throw.

I guess I should reconsider my “equation”

 

[Pnachtwey]

Not sure I agree with this. Generally, high throw vs. low throw *equipment* as I understand it (and I am to some degree parroting William Henzell) is more about whether you primarily want to generate your own speed and spin or whether you want to primarily borrow your opponent's speed and spin.

Wow, what you are saying is that the player's style makes a difference. That nullifies any rating of the rubber on its own.

High throw equipment usually means relatively slow/slower blades and spinny rubbers. Low throw equipment usually means relatively fast blades and less spinny rubbers.

A TBS+2xT05 is a fairly typical setup. The TBS is not a slow blade and T05 is what most people would call "high throw"/

The kind of player who uses high throw equipment tends to be the kind of player who wants to be playing fast topspins all the time with some manipulation of the ball in the short game.

We all want to make fast top spins. I like DHS rubbers except H2 for this.

Think Ma Lin or Timo Boll. The kind of player who uses low throw equipment tends to be the kind of player who wants to be borrowing the opponent's speed and spin and likes to push long and start reflecting the opponent's ball (think Samsonov who was known for his use of the Mazunov, or amongst women, Georgina Pota especially).

Do you mean like a SP blocker hitter?

What you consider low throw is what I would consider short trajectory, but most of those IMO are outside the scope of this as they aren't inverted rubbers.

Can't you achieve a "short trajectory" by not hitting the ball as hard?
BTW, one can achieve the same trajectory with any rubber. It may require a different stroke.
As I said above, I like to keep my loops low no matter what rubber I am playing with.

Tenergy 05 to me is clearly in the high throw camp, as is MX-P.

By the definition you guys use I agree.

Stiga Calibra LT I would actually put with T64 in the long trajectory rubber camp, which I usually consider low/medium throw.

So long trajectory equates to low throw? Does the trajectory depend on the stroke?

Again, all of this is based on personal opinion and use - not hard tests, and a lot of my technique has improved in recent times that make me reconsider some of this. But the general theme for all low throw rubbers/equipment is that you need more upward motion in your shot to create topspin, so it makes it harder to get things going, but when it comes to blocking and fast placement of incoming spins, they are pretty good.

Personal opinion is not worth much because it depends on your stroke.
My business is motion control. Too often what my customers think they see is not what is really happening. That is why we have made it possible to record motion at 4KHz. The truth is revealed by high speed video or recording devices.
As I improve I know that rubbers make less difference than the technique. One can generate the same impulse with any inverted rubber within reason. It is all a matter of preference.

High throw equipment allows you to swing more consistently forward on most shots even spin oriented ones.

I would say that rubbers like T05 allow one to get the same results with shorter/smaller strokes. That is a plus if you have a problem with recovery time but not such a good deal if you can't read spin and make active strokes to compensate.

I still play with my DHS Neos, they are all about the same, on my FH and IQUL on my BH. I can get all the spin and speed I need but I am a close to the table player.

 

[NextLevel]

Pnatchwey,

A coherent response with a positive thesis would be helpful. Taking statements out of context is bad practice. A few points in response to your drive-by mishmash:

A player's style makes a difference but equipment makes it easier or harder to play that style. At the highest levels for offensive styles, the TBS is a slow/medium blade. And no, we all do not want to make fast topspins as a primary playing style when playing our peers - some people are more comfortable letting their peers make the first topspin and then blocking and/or counterattacking that topspin. Keeping loops low is good practice in general, but there are players who struggle less with low loops than heavy topspin and it isn't always easy to keep heavy topspin low given the vertical component of topspin generation and low balls risk hitting the net. Heavy topspin can also be extremely difficult to attack if the ball is taken at a higher height than one can comfortably play a stroke over. And again, equipment can hurt or hinder your style by making it easier or harder to play a certain way. Trajectory is a ceteris paribus claim - it's possible with some limitations to play various kinds of balls with most modern rubbers (some balls are much easier/harder to play with certain rubbers than others). Personal opinion from a higher level player (at least significantly vs. yourself) is worth something, especially when well informed. And finally, you are right about spinnier rubbers requiring you to be more active in making strokes but ultimately, that is what inverted play is about.

Maybe you could post video of yourself playing a competitive match so that people can see what you mean when you speak about your use of these rubbers.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@NextLevel: I think the quote by quote way Pnachtwey responded to you was fine because the then we can tell exactly which point he is responding to. You also handled your response to him just fine as well. Pnachtwey obviously likes to debate.

Wow, what you are saying is that the player's style makes a difference. That nullifies any rating of the rubber on its own.

Of course different players, different abilities and contact, are going to feel and get different things from the same equipment.

Several years ago, a friend had two rackets he was having people try. One was a 5 ply Hinoki blade. The other was a 5 ply Hinoki combination blade with these plies: Hinoki-Limba-Ayous-Limba-Hinoki. He was saying that the all Hinoki blade was faster. I tried and I felt the Combination blade was faster. He was a better player (still is) and he was looping. I was really driving the ball at the time and did not have the ability to make loop contact consistently. I felt the Hinoki blade was slow and dull. I liked the Combination blade and thought it was fast enough with good control. A friend who was a pro tried the blades and said she liked the Hinoki blade. That it was good and a decent speed. She said the Combination blade had bad control and was too slow to be worth using since it didn't have better control.

My friend still plays with the all Hinoki blade (Jonyer-H). And now when I use it I realize that blade feels amazing when you loop. And when you loop it is pretty fast. But back then I could not feel it. And it still does not feel good for driving.

So of course different players and play styles will get different results from the same blade.

And who ever said that those ratings from the companies are worth paying attention to?

We all want to make fast top spins.

Not really. Fast topspin is easy for me with any racket. I played baseball as a kid. I value controlled topspin and good placement much more. And any time I see someone back up a bit further than they should have, I give them short, slow, spinny loops aiming to get the ball to bounce right in front of the net with a second bounce as close to handbreaker length as possible to bring them back in so my next shot can catch them out of position (if they get the shorter shot back).

Can't you achieve a "short trajectory" by not hitting the ball as hard?
BTW, one can achieve the same trajectory with any rubber. It may require a different stroke.

This is mostly right. You can get a ball to leave a racket with the same angle from the ground (higher angle or lower angle). Within reason you can get the ball to go a similar pace. With a slower racket you would have to swing harder for a faster shot. But a rubber that doesn't let you grab the ball as much won't get as much spin and therefore the arc (which I would say is part of the trajectory) would be different.

Also, if you want a short spinny shot you have to do something different than just hitting softer whether that is short heavy topspin or a short heavy push. You still need the racket speed for the spin.

Now if I take one of those $5.00-10.00 premade rackets you find in toy stores, like a Halex, you have to swing pretty high to get the ball over the net. To get the ball to go fast, you have to swing pretty darn hard because those things are really slow and the rubber is very close to anti-spin. But you can do it. I can loop with one of those things. But I won't get as much spin and therefore the ball won't arc down towards the table to the same extent. And I have seen Tahl Leibovitz actually loop with a sandpaper racket.

I personally like those loops that, a foot away from the end look like they are going out and then they drop fast like a good curveball, and when they kick, they kick forward and down so the other person often misses by swinging a foot too high because of how much the ball drops after the bounce. And you are not going to get that with a Halex or Sandpaper.

Personal opinion is not worth much because it depends on your stroke.

As NextLevel says, it does actually depend on whose personal opinion. Someone who has more experience in a field has seen more different scenarios and will have a more valuable personal opinion.

My business is motion control. Too often what my customers think they see is not what is really happening. That is why we have made it possible to record motion at 4KHz. The truth is revealed by high speed video or recording devices.

Woe, slow down, that sounds downright metaphysical. You should talk to the Ancient Greek Philosophers a little about what truth means. LOL.

Joking aside. You are making a good point. Sometimes what we see and what we interpret are very different.

I watched some hardbat to compare it to sponge play. The ball does not go very fast with hardbat. It goes way faster with sponge. But the hardbat guys are taking very constrained, controlled swings. Unless they get a highball that they can crush. Then the ball goes faster than most sponge play (not all, but definitely faster than the loops).

And the sponge players are able to take gigantic swings because their ball will arc onto the table. So the spin potential of the sponge allows for much more powerful strokes on a consistent basis.

The problem I find with the insistence on tests and high speed video is that I am not sure we have the tools to make the right tests.

Could you get a racket to move at the rate of speed and acceleration of a particular loop stroke, get the contact to be the same and hit a ball coming from a robot at the same speed and placement and then do the test with several different blades and rubbers?

If the test only measures the flight of a ball from a stationary racket it will tell us about blocking with a particular blade or rubber. But it won't show much about looping.

I could be wrong but I don't think you could get a mechanical arm to move in a way where it duplicated the stroke of a loop, the speed on contact, and, most importantly, the contact of both brushing and digging in where you get the rubber to make that corking sound that characterizes high quality loop contact for a fast loop.

If you could get a mechanical arm, swinging at the same speed every time, hitting a ball coming from a robot with the same speed and spin every time and show high speed video of that mechanical arm looping with many different blades and rubbers, that would be interesting stuff to watch. If you do have that on video, I would love to see it.

To test the speed of a blade or rubber for looping, you have to test it while it is looping. Because a blade that hits fast doesn't always loop fast. And same thing with rubbers.

But it would be important to note that you would need to measure speed and speed after the bounce. High level players don't have so much trouble with balls that are hit flat because of how they slow down after the bounce. Whereas, high spin loops which accelerate and drop after the bounce cause you to have to take the ball while it is still going fast.

As I improve I know that rubbers make less difference than the technique. One can generate the same impulse with any inverted rubber within reason. It is all a matter of preference.

For the most part, within reason, this is true. If you are using one high end rubber and you switch to another, and your technique is good, either will work even if you like one more than the other.

But the question, the real question is: "why do you like to argue so much?"

LOL. I guess it's all for the LULZ.

I think both of you make many good points. But the subject is a big one. And I am still wondering what the guy who started this thread is thinking about the discussion when all he wanted to know was, "what are the relative benefits of higher and lower throw rubbers."

Pnachtwey: are there any?

How about you NextLevel: what do you think are the benefits of high throw and low throw rubbers.

Are there any? Who would be better off with high throw rubbers? Who would be better off with low? (See Pnachtwey, I just said "low" without the word "throw" and I bet you knew what I meant.)


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[JulienB]

Normally they say that it is easier to get a backspin ball over the net with a high throw rubber. A low throw rubber has the advantage to block easier.

From my own experience i find that high throw rubbers are easier to loop (I have a slow, spinny loop) and overall I seem to have more control on my FH with high throw. With a low throw my balls hit the net or otherwise go off the table.
low throw rubbers are better for flat hitting.

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel: I think the quote by quote way Pnachtwey responded to you was fine because the then we can tell exactly which point he is responding to. You also handled your response to him just fine as well. Pnachtwey obviously likes to debate.

Pnatchwey and I have history on the mytabletennis.net board. He's a smart guy, but he doesn't appreciate his limitations as a table tennis player and it's annoying to discuss table tennis with anyone without that awareness (think of the story you gave of how you evaluated a blade when you didn't loop vs your evaluation when you did). Detailed criticism only has value to me if it is part of a coherent thesis. Otherwise, it often just leads to more detailed criticism of detailed criticism and without understanding the positions/values/emotions driving the criticism, it becomes a mess.

As for high vs low throw, I gave the basic answer - in terms of broader equipment/setups, of which rubbers are one part, it's more about whether you want to generate your own speed/spin or you want to mostly borrow your opponents. Higher throw tends to be for the generators (loopers), lower throw tends to be for the borrowers (counterers/blockers/hitters). If you watch me play and you notice that I have used higher and higher throw rubbers in recent time and slower blades, its because I block less now and topspin much more. I use two of the highest spin rubbers out there and I use them to play a high topspin game. Usually, if I passive block with these rubbers, I am in trouble. If I counterloop, I need to counter with a higher racket head speed than someone who uses lower throw rubbers but the quality of ball I get is much higher.

High throw also tends to be better for close to mid distance topspinning (T05, MX-P). Players who tend to play close to or over the table like to play over the ball more (stroke forward). RElatively Low throw equipment (classic rubbers, Calibra LT) requires more vertical motion in your stroke to generate topspin. Therefore, playing over the ball is harder. Low throw long trajectory is better for mid distance spinning. On the other hand, High throw is harder to passive block with with control so you have to mostly counterspin. Low throw can handle more passive blocking better.

There are other nuances - for example, consider Timo Boll. A lot of Timo Boll's game is based around placing topspins relatively short on the table (as opposed to driving the opponent back with them) so that they kick up at the opponent if he tries to take them off the bounce (you often have to take them off the bounce over the table). Try playing that kind of game with a low throw setup/rubber. T05 tends to slow down my loop drives and makes them arc in the weirdest way. I have to introduce more vertical motion in my stroke to get the same effect with MX-S.

For the ultimate fast blades low throw rubber player, look at Georgina Pota. She is rarely spinning the ball and almost never plays an offensive over the table shot (Samsonov is similar)- it's all long chops and pushes unless the ball is extremely high. Higher throw rubber users play over the table offensively far more often with banana flicks etc.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

(think of the story you gave of how you evaluated a blade when you didn't loop vs your evaluation when you did). Detailed criticism only has value to me if it is part of a coherent thesis.

Yep, I put that in because, a guy who thinks he knows what he's talking about, and thinks he's looping when the ball is flat and has no spin and you hear the wood sound and not a brush sound, that person might not have a valid opinion about looping or how equipment functions when looping. LOL

 

[Pnachtwey]

Normally they say that it is easier to get a backspin ball over the net with a high throw rubber. A low throw rubber has the advantage to block easier.

Who are they and what do they know? I can "loop back" chopped balls with T25 or a hard bat. How low a throw is that? NextLevel and others have said that looping back chopped balls with T25 is difficult but I made a video showing how I can loop back back spin balls thrown by a Newgy 2050 with the speed all the way up to 30. That generates back spin as fast as any chopper. Newgy claims that at the highest setting the balls are thrown at 30 m/s. Lets de-rate that to 25 m/s but I will let you guys do the math to compute the revolutions per second of back spin.
BTW, I did make that video just show up NextLevel.
The trick to looping back underspin with any rubber is matching the surface speed of the front of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle. If the two speeds match the ball will not push off the paddle down into the net or up in the air. If the paddle's tangential speed is too slow the ball will push off the rubber down into the net. unless you open the paddle up enough to compsensate but then the ball will go back with less spin than it had when incoming. High throw or low throw it should make little difference. However if there is a speed mismatch the higher "throw rubber" ( this term makes no sense in this context ) will react to the spin more and cause the ball do dive down at a steeper angles.

Pnatchwey and I have history on the mytabletennis.net board. He's a smart guy, but he doesn't appreciate his limitations as a table tennis player and it's annoying to discuss table tennis with anyone without that awareness (think of the story you gave of how you evaluated a blade when you didn't loop vs your evaluation when you did).

Annoying, you always criticize with out any proof. Your statements are wrong and you believe in myths.
What limitations? Be specific, stop making things up. BTW, what does a 2000 player know that is that special? You went along with the crowd on topics like dwell time. I knew all along the ranges for dwell time but other forum was to stupid to do the math until Baal did his "napkin" estimation which was close enough to the truth. I have posted high speed videos showing impacts where one can count the frames to get a good idea of what dwell time is. Where were all the 2000+ players? If you go to two different TT coaches they will tell you two different things.


NextLevel is the one with limitations. He doesn't understand physics or how things work. He should have known that there can't be tension unless there is something keeping that item in tension yet NextLevel has the gall to say I know nothing about tensioned rubbers.
You are limited by your irrational believes in the tension, the throw angle fairy and that looping back chopped balls will T25 is difficult.

As far as being coherent,

Tems like normal and tangential COR are coherent and consistent unlike, thow, long throw, low throw, high throw, short throw etc. Look at the Tieffenbacher pdfs the impact of the ball on the racket on the ITTF website. Section 1 paragraph 2. Read and understand what is being said then come back

Here we want to try to eliminate some of the current mysticisms concerning the impact racket-ball which make a discussion very difficult.

NextLevel is one of those that is make discusion very difficult.

I watched some hardbat to compare it to sponge play. The ball does not go very fast with hardbat. It goes way faster with sponge.

Why?
You aren't watching the right people. I think these guys would beat most of us with their hard bats.

 

[NextLevel]

BTW, here is the video Pnatchwey is talking about

And here is a bonus video. Can anyone estimate his technique level?

 

[JulienB]

Thank you Nextlevel for posting the videos he's talking about. Pnachtwey the first video actually means nothing. The robot fires the balls to the same position. This says nothing about your ability to loop underspin balls with T25. Besides I don't know how you loop with a high throw rubber. I want to see a comparison of you looping with T25 and T05 and that would make more sense.

BTW, I did make that video just show up NextLevel.

You want to show up everyone but there's no reason to attack Nextlevel or others. Your scientific explanation of looping underspin balls is pretty good at first sight. However, at the end you're saying that it's even more difficult with a high throw rubber because it reacts more to the incoming spin. But a few sentences before you suggest that it's easier with high throw rubbers. Because high throw rubbers tend to give the ball a higher arc with the same movement as with low throw rubbers so it has the same effect as open up your bat's angle.

Can anyone estimate his technique level?

That second video about third ball attack makes me laugh. You gave me the impression you're a true underspin looping expert so the video is a true disappiontment. There's no trust from the legs, your physical condition does not allow you to move around so your partner just fed to the FH. Plus, you can hear there's not much topspin on the ball, which is also not required because of the poor, high backspin balls of the opponent.
Let's look for example from 11:35 which gives us a good view of your ability because you already played for 10 minutes and that's more like matches. You missed 4 balls out of 6 so you could only make 33% of the poor backspin balls.

I don't want to attack you at all. Just rectify some things.

 

[Killerspintt]

Yeah in the looping vs backspin from robot, the T25 user is not giving any arc to the ball (looks like flat hitting vs backspin to be honest), with some spin variations (like in real match) the amount of direct errors will be astronomic.
But yeah, Pnachtwey is right anuway, it is perfectly possible, with a high level of technique, to play a looping game with Tenergy 25 and achieving a nice arc with this rubber.

Here, the offensive player (in blue) is playing with T25 both side :

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Who are they and what do they know? I can "loop back" chopped balls with T25 or a hard bat.

You are not looping. 1) Why did you film so nobody could see your form? 2) Why does your ball have no arc and no kick? 3) Why can you hear a smacking wood sound that indicates it is guaranteed that this is a hit and not a loop? 4) Do you actually know the difference?

Before you talk about this subject, you would probably do well to learn how to loop.

NextLevel is one of those that is make discusion very difficult.


Why?
You aren't watching the right people. I think these guys would beat most of us with their hard bats.

These guys are pretty decent. The ball is still sort of slow for the most part. And when they get a ball they can really rip, it goes faster. But this is nowhere near as fast as watching the video Killerspintt just posted let along the best offensive players in the world. And you can see they are usually not taking the type of full swings that top pros take on almost every shot.

But, here, this is a real match rather than edited, "best of" clips. This is from the 2014 finals of the "World Championships of Ping Pong":

No editing to to make these guys looks better or worse.

By the way, Killerspintt, I believe, in a different thread, in a different forum, what NextLevel actually said was that he didn't like T25 because it was, harder to loop underspin with than T05 and because, when you get backed up from the table you have to change your strokes too much. I don't think he said you couldn't do it.

But, Pnachtwey is definitely not looping in any case, in either video. And he can't even move to the ball to loop. His serves are high. He has no spin on them. And he is having trouble moving to and smacking high dead balls hit to him from his friend so that he doesn't have to move much.

 

[NextLevel]

I will quote myself once more:

Pnatchwey and I have history on the mytabletennis.net board. He's a smart guy, but he doesn't appreciate his limitations as a table tennis player and it's annoying to discuss table tennis with anyone without that awareness (...).

As a sidenote, Pnatchwey interprets everything very literally which leads him to lack flexibility when communicating with people. That's part of the T25 confusion. Saying I can't loop backspin with a rubber usually doesn't mean that I literally can't loop backspin with the rubber. It's usually more a statement about how using the rubber would affect my ability to make certain shots under pressure with my current technique.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Who are they and what do they know? I can "loop back" chopped balls with T25 or a hard bat.

Given the fact that you can't loop at all, this statement is completely ridiculous.

The trick to looping back underspin with any rubber is matching the surface speed of the front of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle.

And this is definitely not what you are doing. Your bat speed is too slow. Your racket is too open. Even though most of your stroke is hidden by your sly camera angle where you didn't want anyone to see you, you can see this from when your racket appears in the frame.

You are smacking into the ball with the racket, the contact is killing the spin, and you are projecting the ball forward and lifting it up enough to get it over the net.

And in the video where you can see your stroke, it is pretty clear that your stroke mechanics need a lot of work and that you do a lot of funny things with the angle of your racket to try and get the ball over the net which means you are using many different strokes because you don't have a good consistent stroke and that a lot of your follow throughs are strange with your palm pronated, your elbow up and your racket at about shoulder height in front of your left shoulder which means you have crossed your body.

Now we know why you want to loop as low over the net as you can. It's because you are not looping. No arc, no spin, no kick. If you hit the ball higher it would go out. Trouble is, you hit a lot of balls into the net and based on both videos, plenty go long too.





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