high and low throw rubbers

[Der_Echte]

I tried T25 and hated on it almost instantly, that rubber just wasn't for me.

Pnchy talks about making very fast bat speed to overcome tangential velocity of spinning ball and for ONE of the kinds of loops I do vs underspin, I would agree. I haven't seen Pnchy show us yet that he can make such a bat speed to loop an underspin ball in this way, but another vid could clear that up. Pnchy DID make a topspin shot on his vid vs underspin balls fed from robot, but it was more of a drive vs underspin than anything. Still an effective shot and good to be able to do if you place it, many opponents might not see where you are hitting and it is good pressure or a winner, just like a loop could be.

My BH loop vs underspin has a LOT of bat speed, I know how to transfer power and I do not need much of a backswing, if any sometimes. I can do many diffent kind of loops on BH wing, but I prefer the heavy spin slower opening loop. That doesn't mean I cannot make a FAST loop with solid contact and make a very fast shot loaded with spin or something in between... I just prefer to make the heavy slow spin first as it is higher percentage and more troublesome to most of my opponents.

That isn't saying Pnchy's topspin hit vs underspin wouldn't be troublesome... that shot can spell trouble if you are not ready, especially if your mind was all set on something slower coming your way. I have lost points vs opponents doing just that when I thought they would choose some other option and thought they wouldn't land it.

Next Level shapes up like a dude who won't put up with too much crap and isn't afraid to call out what he sees. That is fine as frog hair as long as no one is endangering family, income or the like.

Next Level obviously is physically limited at the moment (hey NL, try 3 grams or so of Niaminicide every day spaced out for the next month and tell us how Ur knees feel) and he sure doesn't have a high level physics background, Heck, he isn't an elite amature player and might not ever become one. He sure had a "Strange" looking way of playing points when I first saw some of his vids a year or two back.

I say all that to setup this: Next level is the one progressing upwards a couple levels over the last couple years and I had moved exactly opposite direction the same distance. (Little TT in 2 yrs really put a hurt on my level, but regular TT for a month has prolly brought me from 1500ish playing level to 1800+ level though) NL was already 1800ish old azz adult player when he started his mission to improve and he moved up two levels over two years... and those levels are not as easy as moving up two levels from a much lower level, say 1500ish.

 

[Pnachtwey]

@Der_Echte, Newgy claims the 2050 can throw a ball at 65 mph. If so the spin would be about 65*mph/(2*PI*0.02m)=231 rev/sec. I have no idea what the spin really was. My Newgy throw wheels are old so I doubt that high number but it wouldn't be that much less. I do think it was much higher than 150 rev/sec. Even if the spin was 231 rev/sec I knew I could still swing my arm fast enough to match the Newgy's 2050 backspin. It just gets to be a little harder swinging accurately at faster speeds. I was a little pi$$ed off when some fool on another forum said I was making gentleman like loops. What the fool didn't realize is that I had to swing much more up and down just to match the speed of the surface of the spinning ball than a forward stroke. Also, I was just trying to make a point that I can loop back chopped balls with T25. I wasn't trying to make aggressive loops but just concentrating on getting the ball back on the table. The back spin was much more than I had experienced before. If the back spin was less I could afford to make more aggressive strokes trading off the upwards motion for more forward motion.

Isn't the whole point of chopping to get the looper to hit the ball into the net or spend most of his energy compensating for the back spin instead of making a fast aggressive loop?

The point of all of this is that just about anyone, even little high school girls, should be able to match the spin of the spiniest back spin balls. Choppers can't chop balls at anywhere close to 231 rev/sec. I have a high speed Butterfly video with the chopper generating a back spin of 137 rev/sec. It isn't about the rubber. It is about matching the tangential paddle speed to the spin of the ball. It is all technique and having the energy to execute. Any college freshman taking physics should be able to figure this out whether they play table tennis or not.

For those that didn't see the video I configured the Newgy 2050 to throw back spin balls with the speed setting set at maximum or 30. Normally the Newgy couldn't land a back spin ball if mounted on the table so I moved the Newgy back about 12-14 ft from the table. This is also a more realistic distance to generate a chopped ball. The balls had so much back spin that they would initially rise and curve upwards due to the Magnus effect.

 

[Der_Echte]

I will certainly agree that high school girls should be able to loop vs underspin (even if most of them choose to hit vs underspin).

In MyTT, there is a thread where a tall gent is trying to look for a new blade so he can loop better / stronger. His blade is suitable enough for that task and I am not convinced the blade is holding his loop back much. I arranged to meet him tonight at a TT club and see his loop live and I should be able to see what in his balance / position / timing / biomechanics / part of the strike zone he uses / when he takes the ball / muscle coordination / whatever... so I can tell him where he is losing power/control. I really doubt it is the blade.

People in that thread are commenting this and that, but I will bet a few chicken dinners and drinks there are something(s) about his swing causing him hiz grief in looping. (I don't bet chicken unless I am assured to win or want to pay for it real bad)

As for purpose of chopping... what you said could be one of them... and someone other than a chopper could chop for reasons as well. Maybe they had to run real hard to a ball on their wide FH and it got blocked to the wide BH and there is no time to get into position to make a BH attack with any decent percentage, so you step and chop (or better yet, FAKE chop) maybe you chop, because your opponent cannot hit 3 loops in a row. Maybe you chop, because you can vary spin and get an error. Maybe you chop, because you can get an opponent to lose patience and sanity. Maybe you chop because it is sometimes fun. Maybe you chop because that might be easier or a better option than blocking if you wont hit or counterloop or fish. Maybe you chop because your opponent is pretty flat footed and you chop fast right at him and laugh at him as he tries to step around while standing too errect and trip over hiz-self while he tries to do a step-around FH kill, but all he does is break hiz own ankles and land himself on the wrong end of a viral vid...

LOTS of reasons why one could chop.

I have seen some robots toss out some balls with UNREAL backspin and looping those slow/heavy takes a really explosive swing to generate the kind of bat speed you need... not to mention how difficult it might be to get into position and get the timing right. Sometimes, that means it is a better decision to bump it back and get another chance at something better, sometimes that means opening the bat and making more solid and forward impact... which could be a hit or loopdrive, depending on your bat speed.

I wasn't too bad a shake at Calculus and Physics back in the day, but agreed, it doesn't take even a tenth of that to know in TT to make a slow loop vs a very loaded underspin ball, you really need to get down and make a very explosive swing and lift that sucker a lot.

It just gets to be a little harder swinging accurately at faster speeds.

I would qualify that statement a bit and say something to the effect of it is very difficult to time a very thin grazing shot vs a very spinny underspin ball to make a slow heavy loop using thin brush contact.

It is MUCH more simply and high percentage to make a forward swing and direct impact. Kim Jung Hoon stresses this over and over in his vids I gist on TTD. This applies not just to underspin balls, but high speed bang-bang BH to BH exchanges close to the table. There really isn't any time to risk making a more brushing shot in that kind of rally. You don't take a big long swing and make more moving pieces than necessary. Away from table, maybe, 'cause you got moar time.

Even vs heavy underspin chop, Kim Jung Hoon advocates taking the ball REAL early, like off the bounce on the rise, because the spin bites less and taking the ball there makes a forward stroke with solid impact easier (and more effective) plus you are also more ready for the next ball.

 

[BeGo]

Question for reviewing basic physics on loop,

using either throw rubber,

Who usually dictate more of ball return speed? The player or His opponent?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here's the thing. Pnachtwey is obviously a guy who loves to play table tennis. I have nothing against that. He is enthusiastic and it is good to have people who are enthusiastic about the sport. We can see what his level is from the videos. And if he is trying to get better that is also a good thing. A person can be any skill level and have whatever potential talent they have and it is fine. Especially if they have a love for the game.

But he said all this stuff that makes it sound like he knows what he is talking about and presents this idea that he is able to do what he is talking about.

And then we see the videos......and it is painfully obvious that, even trying to hide himself from view, that he is not doing what he is saying he is doing.....nor can he.

Now I have been thinking about this statement:

The trick to looping back underspin with any rubber is matching the surface speed of the front of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle.

On the surface it sounds good. But I think there is something missing in this. Is this statement actually accurate?

The first thing is that it is clear in the video that Pnachtwey is not doing this because his racket speed is not fast enough.

But his statement also seems to not consider the fact that the topsheet has a wonderful potential to grab the ball. And the sponge has the potential for deformation.

In table tennis there is something that gets called mechanical spin. With mechanical spin, which is how most Euro/Japanese rubbers most effectively spin the ball, the ball sinks into the sponge, the topsheet grabs the ball better because there is more surface area of topsheet in contact with the ball, and then when the sponge rebounds, it propels the ball out with more spin than you would get without that action from the sponge and topsheet. So this mechanical action of the sponge and topsheet add to the spin that your bat speed generates.

When you hear someone with a really good loop, sometimes they get this corking sound from the rubber. Not the harsh wood sound that Pnachtwey gets when he is driving the ball in those videos but a different pop sound from the rubber. I think that may be the speed of the rubber rebounding, almost how the action of a whip gets a cracking sound from the speed of the tip of the whip if you flick it properly. I don't know. But what I am talking about is not the ball bottoming out and hitting the wood.

Now, when you loop, one of the things that really determines the quality of the loop is the kind of contact you make. If the contact is too thick, it stops being a loop. If the contact is too thin, the topsheet doesn't grab the ball enough. When you feel a loop where you get the ball to sink into the sponge enough so the topsheet really wraps around and grabs the ball, and the way the ball seems to shoot off your racket with a ton of spin and you don't feel like you exerted all that much effort, it feels pretty cool.

One of the things about this is, when the topsheet grabs the ball, the incoming spin stops!

And to do that you do need the right contact to grab the ball. And there is no doubt that it is harder to get the topsheet to grab the ball when you are looping backspin than it is when you are looping topspin. But when you loop, the topsheet usually grabs the ball and then you put your own spin on the ball.

So I am wondering if the statement from Pnachtwey has as much to do with looping as it has to do with some physics concept that he used to rationalize what he thinks he is trying to do.

And one thing I would point out, in those videos of him: 1) it doesn't look like the racket is going as fast as he thinks it is, 2) when he does get the ball over the net it is because he hit into the ball and projected it forward enough to get it past the net; not because he spun the ball, so, 3) his topsheet does grab the ball and stop the spin but when he projects the ball forward he is driving into the ball not pulling past it, which is why most of his shots have so little spin.

And if you have ever done one of those slow spinny loops vs backspin where your racket starts slowly and accelerates after the topsheet has grabbed the ball fully, you will realize that Pnachtwey's formula for how to loop a backspin ball just may be a tiny bit off base.

I don't know! Anyone else out there felt what I just described?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pnachtwey]

On the surface it sounds good. But I think there is something missing in this. Is this statement actually accurate?

The first thing is that it is clear in the video that Pnachtwey is not doing this because his racket speed is not fast enough.

And you know this how? I am not opening my paddle to hit the ball upwards. I must be matching the speed of the spin or the ball would go into the net.

But his statement also seems to not consider the fact that the topsheet has a wonderful potential to grab the ball. And the sponge has the potential for deformation.

Everyone knows that. I am using T25 so I expect to get some spring effect from the sponge if my tangential paddle speed exceeds the rotational speed of the ball.

In table tennis there is something that gets called mechanical spin. With mechanical spin, which is how most Euro/Japanese rubbers most effectively spin the ball, the ball sinks into the sponge, the topsheet grabs the ball better because there is more surface area of topsheet in contact with the ball, and then when the sponge rebounds, it propels the ball out with more spin than you would get without that action from the sponge and topsheet. So this mechanical action of the sponge and topsheet add to the spin that your bat speed generates.

OK, smart guy. You haven't been paying attention. What part of matching the tangential paddle speed to the spin on the ball don't you understand? If they match there is no net tangential force. There is no stretching of the rubber to add or subtract from the spin on the ball. The ball simply goes back with the same spin it had before impact. I am not trying to add or subtract spin from the ball. It ball already has more than enough back spin before I hit it. Pay attention.

The reason why the field of view is so narrow is that I used my flip camera. It has a very narrow field of view and I can't move it back any farther.

When you hear someone with a really good loop, sometimes they get this corking sound from the rubber. Not the harsh wood sound that Pnachtwey gets when he is driving the ball in those videos but a different pop sound from the rubber. I think that may be the speed of the rubber rebounding, almost how the action of a whip gets a cracking sound from the speed of the tip of the whip if you flick it properly. I don't know. But what I am talking about is not the ball bottoming out and hitting the wood.

The sound is funny. It is 9mm of balsa wood. I was basically using the incoming horizontal speed for my return speed.
My stroke was close to vertical so certainly the ball hit the the paddle near straight on. That was intended.

Now, when you loop, one of the things that really determines the quality of the loop is the kind of contact you make. If the contact is too thick, it stops being a loop

The incoming back spin what very high as I said before. If I match the spin of the ball so it goes back with the same high spin why isn't it a loop? The return topspin was very high relative to the forward speed.

. If the contact is too thin, the topsheet doesn't grab the ball enough. When you feel a loop where you get the ball to sink into the sponge enough so the topsheet really wraps around and grabs the ball, and the way the ball seems to shoot off your racket with a ton of spin and you don't feel like you exerted all that much effort, it feels pretty cool.

Are you suggesting that I close my paddle in any significant way with all that back spin just to brush the ball?

One of the things about this is, when the topsheet grabs the ball, the incoming spin stops!

NO!! NO!! NO!! You are very wrong in this case. Would some other engineer like to enlighten Carl?

And to do that you do need the right contact to grab the ball. And there is no doubt that it is harder to get the topsheet to grab the ball when you are looping backspin than it is when you are looping topspin. But when you loop, the topsheet usually grabs the ball and then you put your own spin on the ball.

So I am wondering if the statement from Pnachtwey has as much to do with looping as it has to do with some physics concept that he used to rationalize what he thinks he is trying to do.

It is clear to me you are as clueless as the people on the other forum.

And one thing I would point out, in those videos of him: 1) it doesn't look like the racket is going as fast as he thinks it is, 2) when he does get the ball over the net it is because he hit into the ball and projected it forward enough to get it past the net; not because he spun the ball, so, 3) his topsheet does grab the ball and stop the spin but when he projects the ball forward he is driving into the ball not pulling past it, which is why most of his shots have so little spin.

1. You aren't a calibrated machine. Obviously I got the balls over the net so I must have matched the spin of the ball with my paddle fairly closely.
2. I didn't have to hit the ball in the horizontal direction much if at all. The incoming ball speed was still pretty high the and T25 if fairly fast. I was concentrating more on the upward stroke.
3 is very wrong. Think about it. The spin on the ball never stops. It comes in as back spin and goes back as my top spin but the spin is continuous it doesn't stop.

And if you have ever done one of those slow spinny loops vs backspin where your racket starts slowly and accelerates after the topsheet has grabbed the ball fully, you will realize that Pnachtwey's formula for how to loop a backspin ball just may be a tiny bit off base.

If you are still accelerating the paddle when you hit the ball you are not hitting the ball before maximum paddle speed is reached. I had to hit the ball at close to the maximum paddle speed to get the ball over the net.
Any mathematician, engineer or physicist knows that when the acceleration is 0 then maximum positive or negative speed has been reached. If the acceleration is positive then maximum speed has not been reached yet.

Coaches that tell you to accelerate through the ball don't know what they are talking about. If you are still accelerating through the ball at contact then maximum paddle speed hasn't been reached yet but the paddle will still be accelerating after contact and during this time the paddle isn't moving back to its recovery position.

Actually, this is what I hope to find out about my swing when I get the 6DOF accelerometer/gyroscope mounted on a blade.

I don't know! Anyone else out there felt what I just described?

Yes, come on engineers and physicists! Lets see if you are worthy of your degree and not my contempt like those on the other forum. This is a chance to shine.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

And you know this how? I am not opening my paddle to hit the ball upwards. I must be matching the speed of the spin or the ball would go into the net.

If things worked how you said they do, your balls would have spin on them. It is easy to see that most of them don't. I don't think you even know what you are doing but most of those balls have almost no spin on them so if your theory was correct and you were giving the ball back with the same spin, those balls should be loaded AND THEY ARE NOT! You have actually killed the spin on the ball with how your topsheet contacts the ball. Every so often one of your shots has a little more spin. But not a lot. Again, you don't even know what you are doing.

OK, smart guy. You haven't been paying attention. What part of matching the tangential paddle speed to the spin on the ball don't you understand? If they match there is no net tangential force. There is no stretching of the rubber to add or subtract from the spin on the ball. The ball simply goes back with the same spin it had before impact. I am not trying to add or subtract spin from the ball. It ball already has more than enough back spin before I hit it. Pay attention.

You are thinking of how antispin rubbers work. I don't think that is actually how looping backspin works.

And if you are doing what you are describing, then why are your shots dead balls? Why do they have so little spin? Again, you are not matching the speed of your racket to the spin of the ball, and your shots have very little spin.

Now I know I can take a heavy chop and give back a dead ball. When I do it it is on purpose. Those shots you are making have the quality of a short pips hit. But you don't have short pips and you don't seem to know how to contact the ball to get spin.

The reason why the field of view is so narrow is that I used my flip camera. It has a very narrow field of view and I can't move it back any farther.

Excuses. If you wanted to be in the video you would have been but you didn't want people to see your form because it is pretty bad. It is okay. We can see it anyway and we can certainly see how bad your form is from the other video.

The sound is funny. It is 9mm of balsa wood.

More excuses. That is not loop contact. You can see it and you can hear it. And you can see that the ball does not have the kind of arc, kick or spin it would have if someone had looped the ball. Those are dead balls.

You can also see that when you hit the net, the ball has a little spin but not a lot. It gets pulled a tiny bit towards the net as it goes off to the side and then dies almost immediately when it hits the floor. Nowhere near the amount of spin it would have with a loop. It is easy to see.

The incoming back spin what very high as I said before. If I match the spin of the ball so it goes back with the same high spin why isn't it a loop? The return topspin was very high relative to the forward speed.

Totally not what you are doing. There are one or two that have moderate spin and the rest are pretty dead. They have the spin of a counter hit, which is the kind of baby topspin shot you do when you are warming up.

NO!! NO!! NO!! You are very wrong in this case. Would some other engineer like to enlighten Carl?

Hey, I could be wrong, but I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. It may be possible to match or exceed the speed of the incoming spin, but darn it would be hard to loop backspin if every shot you had to calibrate your stroke to the exact amount of spin on the ball coming at you. Funny, when I watch the top Chinese guys looping against Joo or another chopper, the racket speed they use doesn't vary that much even though Joo gives heavy, light and dead chops.

Also, if your stroke mechanics are really good and your rip through the ball on a loop, the incoming ball could have topspin or backspin and it does not need to change your stroke if you time the top of the bounce right.

And I do think, on a loop, you usually use the topsheet to grab the ball and then you spin it. And I would bet that your famous high speed video would show that. I would love to see that.

It is clear to me you are as clueless as the people on the other forum.

To me it seems like you are the clueless one. Perhaps delusional if you think what you are doing is looping.

1. You aren't a calibrated machine. Obviously I got the balls over the net so I must have matched the spin of the ball with my paddle fairly closely.

Definitely not. If you did what you say and what you say was how things work, then those balls should have enough spin for us to see a real arc on the ball and a real kick after. And the balls that hit the net should have massive spin and they should shoot across the room after they bounce on that floor. But it is easy to see that they hit the floor and bounce up and down without getting pulled in any particular direction by the spin.

3 is very wrong. Think about it. The spin on the ball never stops. It comes in as back spin and goes back as my top spin but the spin is continuous it doesn't stop.

If what you say is actually what is happening, how come the balls that hit the net have so little spin and just bounce lazily in no particular direction when they hit the floor. If they had real spin on them they would kick towards the far side of the room room pretty fast. They don't kick at all when they hit the floor.

It is actually a bit sad that you are such a deluded fool. For a smart guy you are pretty idiotic. And clearly what you are doing and what you think you are doing are two very different things.

 

[Killerspintt]

When you hear someone with a really good loop, sometimes they get this corking sound from the rubber.

More than the sound, there is the ball trajectory and clearly the ball is going down instantly after than contact, it goes over the net only because the contact point is very very high. The real test of skill is to top spin this huge underspin ball with a contact point under the net, forcing you to create an arc.

I do think that if the bat speed matches the spin of the ball, you should get a returning spin not far from the incomming one, and it's obviously not the case here.....only judging from the bounce of the returning ball. It is possible to loop this ball by using "brut force", meaning as described by Pnachtwey, by reaching a very high paddle speed..........but it is also possible to loop this ball by touch.......has you described, by reaching a high dwell time (= "grabbing" the incomming spin).

Touch is everything in table tennis. I have faster arm speed on my FH loop than many of my team mates in my tt club, but a team mate is able to input incredible spin, more than me, even with is "slow motion" FH loop. He is able, thx to his touch, to deform the rubber even on "slow motion" strokes.

See this video of Shlager (serves) :

I do believe that anyone here can reach far higher bat speed on a pendelum serve than Schlager is using for most of his serves here. But nobody here is able to imput has much spin than Schlager. Thanks to his amazing touch, Schlager is able to input more deformation than us to his rubber, resulting to more spin than anyone of us, he is maximazing dwell time. And this is what you explain also at the end of your post, the acceleration is an important factor to reach a better dwell time/rubber deformation/higher spin.

 

[NextLevel]

It is actually a bit sad that you are such a deluded fool. For a smart guy you are pretty idiotic. And clearly what you are doing and what you think you are doing are two very different things.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that his level of table tennis is not high enough for him to know what he should be doing vs. what he is doing so he thinks they are the same thing. I know because I was there - when I was 1700, I had a long conversation after a bad loss with my coach and his two junior students (my main practice partners at the time) and they said that my biggest problem was that I didn't spin the ball, especially on my forehand. And in my head, I did spin the ball on my forehand. Looking back, I can see how right they were - I played more for pace than for spin even if my shots sometimes had good spin. So I had issues consistently looping backspin and I couldn't play for margin or spin when my opponent wasn't troubled by my pace/power.

But you need to get better to be able to look back.

The funniest thing is that you can read some of Pnatchwey's commentary when he watches my matches. It's like he has no clue what the difference in ball quality between a 2000 player and a 1400 player generally means in a match.

 

[Killerspintt]

@Pnachtwey

If youthinks that he is looping the robot ball, clearly there is someting mistaken about looping. Once again it's only because the contact point is ultra high that the ball is going over the net (I could get this beckspin ball past the net even without moving my racket, yup with a static racket, it would be ez, same are some adjustments anyone here will be able to falt hit the ball, you just have to adjust the racket angle).
It really looks like flat hits on underspin ball, the ball is going down right after the ball contact. With the same technique it will be impossible to loop this ball with a contact point under the net.

Pnachtwey you should try the same thing but just waiting for the ball to be under the net and try to loop it back by giving it an arc, with this level of underspin (150+rev/s) just to understand what we are saying here first. Then for improvement, a good thing will be to do exactly the same exercice as we see on the second video with his play mate..........but doing it seriously, meaning huge backspin on the serve, if possible huge backspin + short serve (for more advanced players, requires far more touch than huge backspin + long serve) and then a 3rd ball FH topspin.

Here I don't see the point, the serve is long without spin, the return hardly has any backspin and then a FH topsin that is not even meant to be a winner.......there much better usage of precious training time to be done !!!!

The serves have to be REAL serves, meaning that you concentrate on it to get maxium backspin (long serve if you cannot achieve short serve with huge backspin), this way you also benefit of this training to get also better serves. The training partner takes the ball right after the bounce to input huge backspin (the more backspin you put into your serve, the more backspin yopur partner will be able to input also, while keeping the ball low) into a low a long ball into your FH and then you execute an opening FH loop or killing 3rd ball attack. Repeat it hundreds of time.

This will be truly productive.

And, one more thing, there is no meaning executing 3rd ball attack drills if you don't have, at least, a huge backspin long serve, really, there is no meaning in it.
Table tennis is a constructive sport, its not like I can begin to train someone to do killing 3rd ball attacks if this guy doesn't have the serve skills to benefit from this traing. You won't be able to do 3rd ball FH attacks if your serves are so bad that it is easy to attack your serve.
Most of time, the coach instruction, during those type of exercices, is to attack right away if the serve is long for example....

Also, 9mm balsa core, please don't tell me there is also carbon in it, like a Joola Kool or Yinhe T11, what you are lacking the more right now is touch, not even speaking about technique or anything else, it is to FEEL the ball, to feel when you are giving spin (or not), to feel when your contact is good (or not), to FEEL. This is far more important at your level than the astronomical power of a 9mm balsa core. Get a 5 ply 6mm tick allwood with a lot of flex and if possible a ton of feedbacks (vibrations, sound), something like Stiga Offensive Classic.

Pnachtwey, you are right about the fact that when you topspin a backspin ball, the ball will always rotate (in the referential of the floor), but Carl is not an engineer and what he describes can be wrong if taken litteraly but it is so true when taken from a lambda tt player with a very good feeling.

Carl is describing his feeling, he has the feeling that when he executes a very good stroke, he can "grab" the ball. As I explained, here is just the feeling of being able to deform the rubber, maximizing dwell time and spin, the feeling you get when you have good arm/wirst accelaration. He wanted to explain that there is much more than your simple way to see physics in table tennis and he's done it based on his feeling (and I'm sure he has a pretty good one, because is table tennis "intuition" based on his feeling actually matches very often the physics, even if it's not 100% accurate, but dude......Carl is not a physics nerd and an engineer like I am, or you are, he tries to describe his FEEL with mere words, thats all).

Certainly the same feeling Schlager gets on all his serves, the amazing spin is not created by raw bat speed, it is creating by a combination of very big but very short acceleration (not long enough to reach very high bat speed, as I said I think anyone here can reach higher bat speed on a pendelum serve than Schlager on most of his serves, but nobody here will come close to his level of spin). This way, Schlager is able to maximize dwell time and to deform his rubber far more than anyone of use.

This feeling, to deform the rubber much more than a usual stroke would, even on serves, has been described many time with his own words by Carl.........for example Der_Echte will call it by the famous expression "Bang Impact", a compination of "Hand pressure mastery" and huge acceleration. Werner Schlager, the Elite, is able to get this "bang impacts" even on serves.

But I trully think you lack feeling, with more feeling you will understand far better what Carl is saying, feel is the alpha of table tennis, the omega is the touch and I think it is very very difficult to get a good technique without good touch and feeling.

To me, it looks like you are wanting to overcome your lack of feeling and touch by the usage of low grade physics, and judging from the video it doesn't look like this is a good trade for your improvement, for example you think that you are doing topspins against the robot backspin, it's not true, there is no spin in your ball, you can't feel it but you can at least SEE it, your balls have no spin, just watch the video.

See this video of Freitas touch and feel :

See what he is doing at 1:15 "the backspin catcher". A guy like Carl will instantly understand what Freitas is doing and the level of touch behind it, based on his own feeling. And you won't understand this based on low grade physics applicated to table tennis, because like many scientist would do and has you said, you will consider the dwell time as few milliseconds and thuus........somehow a constant parameter. You even wanted to "expose" the "myth" of long/shord dwell time....etc....but man, a guy like Carl will instantly understand what Freitas is doing the "backspin catcher", indeed he is minimizing dwell time as much as possible, so much that the ball is keeping its backspin after multiple contacts with the rubber, try to guess what will happen with a longer dwell time, try to do it yourself and try to FEEL the ball, the dwell time...etc..., there is now way to understand it with low grade physics once again, even introducing a friction coeficient....etc...won't help you here.

Now I understand why you wanted to "expose" the "long/short dwell time myth" on your famous topic, I trully think that you lack touch and FEEL, and into your hand there is no short or long dwell time blade/rubbers/whatever and you trully believe(d ?) it was a myth. But it's not a myth, you just can't feel it.

 

[NextLevel]

Killerspintt,

What is your rating/ranking in France? Just curious.

NL.

 

[Killerspintt]

I never played competition more than 3 years in a row, my best "instant" ratting was ~1590 points in 2003, then I stopped until 2007 (studies....), played 2007-2008 but not much competition, passed the training degree called "regional trainer" during those years and had a rating about ~1350 at the end of 2008. I stopped again in 2009 and I just came back to table tennis in September 2014, they rated me at ~950 points in September, ended the season with ~1150 points (not played much, only played the team matchs, not the individual competitions). I think my actuel level of skills is around ~1400 points (60% win rate against 1400-1500).

They changed the rule this year (for the rating variation when not playing), in fact if I hadn't played this year and came back in September 2015, my rating would have been higher, they just changed the lose of points from 75 points per season to a maximum of 400 points to 25 points "only" per season not played with a maxium of 200 points).
I've never ever done a season with a lower rating at the end than at the beginning (always stopped before my rating matched my skills level). The issue is that during this very long break between 2009 and 2014......I became fat, need to lose ~20kg because I became freaking slow.

I'll try to post a video of a basic training with a friend, to let you judge of my level. But it's summer, its ultra hot (35+°c outdoor, its easy 40+°c inside our tt club....), I have hard time motivating team mates to do some training lol (I wanna test some stuffs). And I hope I'll be able to play table tennis next year (might move because of work and stop tt again).

The median rating in France (50% of players above and 50% under) is about 707 points, there are about 200k club players and among them about 120k competitive (with rating) players.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl is describing his feeling, he has the feeling that when he executes a very good stroke, he can "grab" the ball.

Great post all the way through. And in there you present the exact reason I switched from a Timo Boll ZLF (which actually has decent feedback for a blade that fast) to an OSP Virtuoso and then to a Virtuoso +. Both have great feedback and give you an excellent ability to feel the ball while it is in contact with the blade.


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[Killerspintt]

Yeah, and if you still want to make major improvement in your technique, or even a complete change a technique (for example switching from a short motion FH loop "timo boll style" to a long motion FH loop "wang liqin style"), it is far easier to do it with a blade with great feeling.
OSP blades are well known for their great feel.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yeah, and if you still want to make major improvement in your technique, or even a complete change a technique (for example switching from a short motion FH loop "timo boll style" to a long motion FH loop "wang liqin style"), it is far easier to do it with a blade with great feeling.
OSP blades a well known for their great feel.

And about 2.5 years ago a friend who is decently high level in his technique, helped me change my forehand from fairly bad technique to a much better stroke.

Table tennis is such a technical sport that there are always things to improve. And for me a blade in the Off- speed range, 5 ply, about 5.7mm thick, has really been a plus. I love the extra feedback and ability to feel the ball on the blade surface.

I can generate plenty of power with this blade. And the ability to feel what I am doing really does help you duplicate the better contact and improve faster.


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[Der_Echte]

This thread has GOT to be the epitome of SMACKDOWN pay the price for stepping on Ur manhood most EPIC among threads of this category.

 

[Pnachtwey]

If things worked how you said they do, your balls would have spin on them.
It is easy to see that most of them don't.

They have about the same amount of spin as as the incoming spin.

I don't think you even know what you are doing but most of those balls have almost no spin on them so if your theory was correct and you were giving the ball back with the same spin, those balls should be loaded AND THEY ARE NOT!

And you know this how?

You have actually killed the spin on the ball with how your topsheet contacts the ball. Every so often one of your shots has a little more spin. But not a lot. Again, you don't even know what you are doing.

How did I kill the spin? I would have to open my paddle up to kill the spin. I am not doing that.

You are thinking of how antispin rubbers work. I don't think that is actually how looping backspin works.

No.

And if you are doing what you are describing, then why are your shots dead balls? Why do they have so little spin? Again, you are not matching the speed of your racket to the spin of the ball, and your shots have very little spin.

How can you see the spinning balls? You have no evidence. You can see I am not opening my paddle to kill the spin.

Now I know I can take a heavy chop and give back a dead ball. When I do it it is on purpose. Those shots you are making have the quality of a short pips hit. But you don't have short pips and you don't seem to know how to contact the ball to get spin.

Only by opening your paddle. The more you open the paddle the more you can use the back spin to get the ball over the net. I am not doing that.

Excuses. If you wanted to be in the video you would have been but you didn't want people to see your form because it is pretty bad. It is okay. We can see it anyway and we can certainly see how bad your form is from the other video.

The flip video is what I had at the time at what difference does it make? It is me hitting the ball.

More excuses. That is not loop contact. You can see it and you can hear it. And you can see that the ball does not have the kind of arc, kick or spin it would have if someone had looped the ball. Those are dead balls.

I was not making an excuse. Just fact.

You can also see that when you hit the net, the ball has a little spin but not a lot. It gets pulled a tiny bit towards the net as it goes off to the side and then dies almost immediately when it hits the floor. Nowhere near the amount of spin it would have with a loop. It is easy to see.

You still have no explanation as to how I killed the spin. You are making things up.

Totally not what you are doing. There are one or two that have moderate spin and the rest are pretty dead. They have the spin of a counter hit, which is the kind of baby topspin shot you do when you are warming up.

How did I kill the spin? Give us an explanation.

Hey, I could be wrong, but I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. It may be possible to match or exceed the speed of the incoming spin, but darn it would be hard to loop backspin if every shot you had to calibrate your stroke to the exact amount of spin on the ball coming at you. Funny, when I watch the top Chinese guys looping against Joo or another chopper, the racket speed they use doesn't vary that much even though Joo gives heavy, light and dead chops.

You are wrong.

Also, if your stroke mechanics are really good and your rip through the ball on a loop, the incoming ball could have topspin or backspin and it does not need to change your stroke if you time the top of the bounce right.

How do you figure that?

And I do think, on a loop, you usually use the topsheet to grab the ball and then you spin it.
And I would bet that your famous high speed video would show that. I would love to see that.

Yes, but if the tangential paddle speed matches that of the ball is there is no net force between the ball and top sheet.

To me it seems like you are the clueless one. Perhaps delusional if you think what you are doing is looping.

No, you are. Same with NextLevel.

Definitely not. If you did what you say and what you say was how things work, then those balls should have enough spin for us to see a real arc on the ball and a real kick after

The Newgy 2050 throws a ball proportional to the speed. If I am matching the spin I am doing about the same. There wouldn't be much kick but then again you can't see it from the camera angle. So how did I kill the spin? I bet you have no answer.

. And the balls that hit the net should have massive spin and they should shoot across the room after they bounce on that floor. But it is easy to see that they hit the floor and bounce up and down without getting pulled in any particular direction by the spin.
If what you say is actually what is happening, how come the balls that hit the net have so little spin and just bounce lazily in no particular direction when they hit the floor. If they had real spin on them they would kick towards the far side of the room room pretty fast. They don't kick at all when they hit the floor.

Again, you are assuming. The fact that the balls hit the net means I didn't hit the ball with the right tangential speed so they would have the same amount of spin as those that went over the net.

It is actually a bit sad that you are such a deluded fool. For a smart guy you are pretty idiotic. And clearly what you are doing and what you think you are doing are two very different things.

and you are an idiot. It is clear I was getting the balls over the net. The Newgy was set at a speed of 30 and the head turn upside down to generate back spin. You try it.

You avoided my reply to the comment you made about the spin of the ball being stopped when looping back spin. This is definitely wrong. No one has pointed this out yet. What is wrong with you guys?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

They have about the same amount of spin as as the incoming spin.

hahaha. Hilarious. The dream of the ridiculous man.

And you know this how?

Your balls have no arc and no kick. And it is clear that the ones that hit the net have little spin and bounce around just like they have very little spin.

How can you see the spinning balls? You have no evidence.

Actually you really can see it. And the best evidence is those balls that hit the net and go off the side. They have light topspin not heavy topspin.

You still have no explanation as to how I killed the spin. You are making things up.

That is what a flat hit is. You bludgeon the ball with the racket so the racket banging into the ball gets the topsheet to grab the ball and stop most of the spin.

How do you figure that?

Well, because I have done it. About 2 years ago a friend who is a coach was having me do over-the-table loops against hand-breaker length underspin serves over and over. When he saw the stroke was okay he started mixing in topspin without telling me. Then after a while he told me. I did not change the stroke. The bat speed and trajectory were able to loop either serve.

The Newgy 2050 throws a ball proportional to the speed. If I am matching the spin I am doing about the same. There wouldn't be much kick but then again you can't see it from the camera angle. So how did I kill the spin? I bet you have no answer.

Well, I already answered. But here, have a read:

@Pnachtwey

If youthinks that he is looping the robot ball, clearly there is someting mistaken about looping. Once again it's only because the contact point is ultra high that the ball is going over the net (I could get this beckspin ball past the net even without moving my racket, yup with a static racket, it would be ez, same are some adjustments anyone here will be able to falt hit the ball, you just have to adjust the racket angle).
It really looks like flat hits on underspin ball, the ball is going down right after the ball contact. With the same technique it will be impossible to loop this ball with a contact point under the net.

Pnachtwey you should try the same thing but just waiting for the ball to be under the net and try to loop it back by giving it an arc, with this level of underspin (150+rev/s) just to understand what we are saying here first. Then for improvement, a good thing will be to do exactly the same exercice as we see on the second video with his play mate..........but doing it seriously, meaning huge backspin on the serve, if possible huge backspin + short serve (for more advanced players, requires far more touch than huge backspin + long serve) and then a 3rd ball FH topspin.

Again, you are assuming. The fact that the balls hit the net means I didn't hit the ball with the right tangential speed so they would have the same amount of spin as those that went over the net.

Some of the ones that go over the net have less than some that go into the net.

and you are an idiot. It is clear I was getting the balls over the net. The Newgy was set at a speed of 30 and the head turn upside down to generate back spin. You try it.

The funny thing is, on MyTT forum you said:

The Newgy 2050 is set to throw back spins at a speed of 25.

Which is it Mr big looper? 25 or 30? LOL. You just like to argue because you don't have a life.

Why don't you try what Killerspintt suggested. Try looping those from a height below the net.

Then practice third ball attack where the third ball is low and decently heavy. There is nothing wrong with doing drills that will help your level improve.

You avoided my reply to the comment you made about the spin of the ball being stopped when looping back spin. This is definitely wrong. No one has pointed this out yet. What is wrong with you guys?

Really the question is, what is wrong with you.

Look, if you stopped being an idiot and wanting to argue and wanting to be correct when you may actually not know what looping is, just listen to some of the advice Killerspintt gave. He actually was pretty nice about telling you things that would be useful for you to work on.

I don't need to be a jerk to you but darn your argumentative foolishness and your desire to want to be correct when you are not comes off as really annoying and very immature.

I am okay with not being 100% right about what I was saying about how looping works. I am going to trust what Killerspintt said about how that is what it feels like but not exactly what is happening and what I am feeling is the deformation of the sponge and topsheet. And your insistence on the idea that you are looping when everyone who looks at the video can see you are not does make it seem like you are a bit off your rocker.

Just read Killerspintt's post and do some of what he was suggesting for you to work on. It would help you improve. You will get better. There is nothing wrong with starting at a fairly low level and improving your skills. But if you don't know how to loop and you don't know that you don't know how to loop and you are presenting yourself as some kind of expert, then it will be a bit of an embarrassment when people who can loop see you not looping and all agree that it is something different than looping.

Those videos show everything anyone needs to see.

That second video about third ball attack makes me laugh. You gave me the impression you're a true underspin looping expert so the video is a true disappiontment. There's no trust from the legs, your physical condition does not allow you to move around so your partner just fed to the FH. Plus, you can hear there's not much topspin on the ball, which is also not required because of the poor, high backspin balls of the opponent.

Yeah in the looping vs backspin from robot, the T25 user is not giving any arc to the ball (looks like flat hitting vs backspin to be honest)

These guys were able to see what is going on in the videos too. It does really seem like, either you are so intent on arguing that you just won't concede that all the people on MyTT who also said you were not looping may actually have a point, or, you are delusional and actually think you are looping which means that you REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT LOOPING IS.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

See this video of Freitas touch and feel :

See what he is doing at 1:15 "the backspin catcher".

I love this video. That backspin catcher is pretty amazing.

 

[JulienB]

Amazing video! Added to my tabletennisvideos list