Looping slow no spin balls

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Thanks Shuki... but at 1900 level, even in the ringer infested East Coast... you can get away with it.

Serving effectively is both a science and art and also a mind game.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Really? I'd love to come to the east coast, our 1900 level players are pretty strong here's a video of a penholder we have.

He got the second game I believe, and deuce the third. First game was poor we can skip that ;)

 
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@der_echte

I like this most recent post. It's true, the better you get the less you ask questions as to "why didn't that go over the way I wanted" At my level, I've noticed a lot of player's don't quite have the fundamentals and adaptability that I have. So when I play someone around my level for the first time, I go through a variety of serves and find one that they struggled with immensely. I can then repeat the same serve 3-4 times in a row without them having any adaptation and still struggling to find out exactly how they should be hitting the ball.

And then even when they figure out how to get that ball over decently, I'm ready to counter that. Once you get to a certain level, lets say 1850-1900ish, doing the same exact serve twice in a row simply wont work because the opponent knows exactly what they did wrong and can correct their mistake immediately.

I have some experience in very technical things akin to TT, so that problem doesn't plague me terribly. For this matter, I just find answers for every single problem I could have at this level, except the one I'm intending to fix! Maybe eventually I will get to the point in the long list where "brush loop" is. :rolleyes:
 
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I have some experience in very technical things akin to TT, so that problem doesn't plague me terribly. For this matter, I just find answers for every single problem I could have at this level, except the one I'm intending to fix! Maybe eventually I will get to the point in the long list where "brush loop" is. :rolleyes:

You don't have all the answers except this one ;]. There will always be questions. A great player once told me, every game you play, you learn something new. Even if you played poorly, you learned something in that loss and you are now a better player than you were 15 minutes ago. There's a difference between knowledge of how something works and what to do, and UNDERSTANDING. Understanding is only gained through experience while knowledge could be derived from intelligence and knowing the physics and anatomy behind things.
 
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This is great information , but as they say in our country , don't feed too much butter to the dog and it might lose its fur .... no offense intended .. Archo , just focus on getting the ball on the table with as much spin as possible , forget about speed for now .
Not many people analyze the backswing or the elbow or their stance

tldr; if you plan to loop hard, get your body lower but, don't lower your backswing too low.

Assuming you know how to topspin the ball well:

If you can loop underspin fine, but still loop out when encountering no spin, the quick short term solution is to let the ball drop down, close your racket more and then loop it (not too hard). It's not very effective, but it gets the ball on the table.

The long term solution(for those athletes who want to be competitive):
You can close your racket angle, but it will take away some speed.

Looping underspin serves requires you to drop the paddle low. After all, you must first go down low in order to go up fast.
If you drop the paddle too low, you are forced to hit upwards and it becomes very easy to loop the ball out if your opponent serves topspin or no spin.

Instead, just change the backswing. Bring your paddle back and a little less down. You still have to spin the ball of course.
Make you have a mirror or a video camera or something to help you look at what you are doing.
Most players don't realize how far their arm drops, since all they focus on is how fast they try to follow through. Players don't realize how much they drop their arms when they try to loop a no spin serve.

If you plan to snap your forearm, make sure you get your elbow low. The harder you plan to loop, the lower you would have to go.
(I'm a lefty penholder and I loop really hard, so my elbow is as low as the table or the net.)
If your elbow is too high, it is very difficult to hit forward. (you are almost forced to loop upwards, thus making people go out.
A forward motion is extremely important if you plan to loop hard and punish a serve, since going forward faster lowers the trajectory of your loop. And faster shots require lower trajectories.
Of course, the height of your elbow depends on the ball too(if it's really high or low), so adjust accordingly.
I have seen a lot of older players, and tall players especially who can't or don't get low enough.

One last thing thing is to lean forward. it is an easy way to change your looping motion into something that is directed in a more forward direction, lowering the trajectory of the loop even further. It also helps drop the elbow a little.

As a little extra:
Counterlooping openers and counter attacking is done the same way. Most people go out when they try to counterloop off of a heavy topspin loop because loopers like us are used to dropping our arm and lifting the ball. (This is fine in most scenarios) Instead, you have to raise your backswing to the appropriate height(the height of the loop matters quite a lot) and loop through the ball. Backhand punching follows the same logic. You don't drop your paddle. You raise it to the appropriate height and hit through the ball.

I can't counterloop those openers without leaning forward and raising my backswing a little and getting my body lower.

I have had this problem for years, since I loved looping underspin (and almost all I ever did, since the players I played then didn't block well). I would get frustrated when people served no spin, sidespin/topspin, because I would go out.

Having fixed this problem, I get to pretend to be Xu Xin and counterloop openers and flips all day :D and of course punish long and half long serves.
 
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@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:

@ttmonster

Do you think it'd be a good idea to actually completely drop the "on the table" part for now, and just focus on spin, then once I know how to do that, then care about getting it on the table?
 
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@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:
"Having the "basics" developed well enough to actually play the game will take around 3 years, give or take a couple months of focused training. Don't expect to get it in a year. I'm sure you've seen the "expert in a year" documentation. of the player getting coached every day and focused on getting good in a year. Didn't turn out the way they had hoped.


I try and look at things and understand "why" this is optimal. Try and remember a long chop/push to deep forehand is hard to loop WELL. There are reasons for this. As a ball is rising it takes away speed from your stroke. If your stroke goes up at 8 mph and the backspin ball is rising at 2 miles an hour, well now your stroke is only 6mph. Now lets take into consideration that the push was deep and wide and that you have to be moving AWAY from the table. lets say you're moving away at 3mph. Well now your 8mph stroke is only making contact with the ball at 3mph. 8-2-3=3.

When you're doing these drills you're not hitting the ball on the rise, so when it comes to a game you will find the no-spin balls more difficult. Instead of hitting them on the fall which actually adds speed to your stroke, making it easier to loop, you may catch your timing being off hitting it earlier on the rise or at various different times.
 
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You could , but how will you know if you spun it, if it does not kick off the table . The point its spin and consistency is interlinked , the more you can spin the more it will be on the table.

On the no spin , there are many ways to go about it , the easiest is to spin with a thin contact. And this is true for all ball where you are kind of unsure about the direction and amount of incoming spin.

Ofcourse , there are other ways to deal with it , for now just focus on loading up on spin and landing it on the table. There will be a alot of things to work with once you start putting things on the table.

But my sincere advice, is go out and try to make friends and get to know other table tennis player not matter what it takes in terms of improving your social skills or even taking BS , so that have you different players to play with as long as they have different playing styles and are one or two levels above or below you... this will solve a lot of your issues.


@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:

@ttmonster

Do you think it'd be a good idea to actually completely drop the "on the table" part for now, and just focus on spin, then once I know how to do that, then care about getting it on the table?
 
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It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?
 
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It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?
 
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It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?
 
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Against no spin, the starting point of your backwing will be not that low but lower than a regular topspin against topspin counter and you finishing point will be slightly in front with the bat face a little more closed .. hope the videos help

The questions about the bounce off the table and the arc should get answered if you watch both videos carefully in detail ...
 
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Turns out a lot has happened in the 12 hours I have gone.

True, I thought I was giving advice to a more developed player. However, that doesn't mean my advice can't apply to developing players. After all, I just suggested to lean forward and get lower, which are fundamentals.

Still, Carl makes a good point. I gave a crap ton of technical advice about the backswing(which I believe is a big problem for beginners).

However, I posted more in response to the thread's title, so I decided to give advice to the community as a whole rather than to one person. After all, this is a forum, not a coaching session.

So I decided to add more details for the more experienced players :D

@Archo Let's see your new stroke. Who knows, I might be a miracle worker :p (just kidding, can't even make my own backhand strong enough)

By the way, for just basic looping strokes, it really depends on what your intention is, simply because of the fact that there are different kinds of loops. So in a way, there are a couple of different "basic looping strokes."

What matters even more is what kind of shot is given to you. When you watch videos of world class players practicing their loop, please realize that the block that comes back to them is also played by a professional, meaning it is low, fast, and has a decent amount of topspin.
If all you do is try to copy their stroke, you will soon realize that you will go into the net since most players give much slower, higher, and less topspinny blocks. (I hate high blocks by the way; they make you have to pay close attention to height)
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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For me, one of the things I am actually wondering about is: Is Archie now talking about a dead ball that is coming to him from a serve? A shot that was a dead ball because one of his training partners hits dead balls in a rally? Or is he still talking about the dead balls from self hitting that he as originally talking about in this thread?



Regardless, there has been a lot of good information on looping dead balls that would benefit a player who really is facing real variations in spin.


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The difference between you and me one one hand and archo on the other is that both of us had USATT ratings and (I guess for you but definitely for me) did not misrepresent our levels. I drove people crazy enough that they thought I was a troll on mytt. Some people still consider me the most respectable troll of all time, because I sometimes needle the people I am tying to help.

One of the reasons why I respect Sebas (other than when he hides behind unknown identities) is that he does not mask himself like the worst trolls do. The main reason I cut archo slack is that real trolls never reveal themselves. They know that once you see them play, most of their power to annoy you is gone.

What's really unfortunate is that archo does not know the difference in level between club play and casual play. It just has to be experienced to be understood.

Every ball is different. Fundamentals and principles are forever applicable. Knowing how to judge an incoming ball is a skill, and very central to what stroke you prepare. You fundamentals of basic stance and mental readiness are a foundation before you can read the ball.

When you get to a point after enough learning of basics and practical experience of this or that not not working, you will know almost instantly what you did wrong if something goes wrong.

When we are recreational players without any training or instruction or experience or means to meaningful practice to get the reps and experience, it is a damned difficult situation to learn and grow. NOT Mission Impossible, but damned difficult to grow at an acceptabe rate. TT is a tough sport to learn and even with proper help, it takes a LONG time to get good.

I started out as a slightly portly gent in my young 40s as a rec player. I THOUGHT I was a serious player, but my first 6 years, I had zero coaching or help. All I had was internet forums, which helped a LOT, and Larry Hodges; excellent basic TT book Steps to Success: Table Tennis.

My early forum days were pretty much like Archos. I was eager and keen about TT, loved playing and loved discussing it 100x more. I talked on matters like I was real solid, where I really didn't have but 20% of the experience needed. That is why I cut Archos a lot of slack and never really chimed in about calling him out for not really being solid and experienced about what he is talking about. All I saw was a kid loving TT and trying to participate with everyone. Archos took it to a new level about where I over-extended in my early days, but others have already done the deed of dime-ing him out, so it needed zero intervention from me.

Over time, ANY reasonable gent can do a decent job of discerning character, and the TT forums have a sufficient enough forgiveness and allow for tolerance to a good degree. Heck, they put up with me my first half decade of Der_Echte opening hiz mouth and jamming in foot and still do.
 
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monster, I noticed the angle in the video is more closed than I'm thinking is correct. For no-spin, I imagine it'd be even closer to 45deg. I think I have an idea of how I could do this stroke, now.

Carl, I'm talking mostly about self hitting balls, but also balls in rallies. I'm having an easier time making better contact with the balls that actually come at me.

Also thanks for posting that video: I noticed I was actually contacting more forward than upward. Lately I've been trying to brush more up and follow through up as well, because that's where I want the force to go. I think I was basically turning a perfectly fine brush stroke into a drive just before contact.

Notice how the shadows in the beginning are different from my stroke. I wasn't letting the brush happen.

Song, the point about amateur vs pro blocks is good. I've got a lot more accustomed to dealing with nearly chest height balls than perhaps a bit lower balls that I'd prefer. I should really get someone to block for me so I can deal with terrible placement inconsistency AND garbage balls. From what I understand, it's a pretty important skill. :p

I love your avatar by the way. Shame only 12ep and we're probably not getting more.



I have a pretty decent idea of what I should do now. There's no wonder I wasn't getting any spin before. Prepare for some video hopefully on monday. Thanks, guys.

EDIT: So I rigged a setup with my bed frame where I can place the ball on it like on the edge of the table and practice brushing there. It's not going to teach me how to generate a LOT of spin, but it's going to teach me to brush rather than hit. I figured I needed something at home to practice this with, that won't make a ton of noise.

I'm not as consistent as I'd like, but there's a pretty clear difference between spin and no spin. Amount of spin isn't high because I'm going very slow, but the effect on the bedsheet is apparent. I'm using Joola Spinballs so I can see the rotation a bit better in the air.


Does this method make any sense?
 
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Does this method make any sense?

I assume your setup allows you to spins balls onto your bedsheet where you can see it spin. This makes sense. I can do this with the wall. I would loop the ball against a wall, the ball would bounce off, and then spin back towards the wall.

Brushing the ball should be like peeling an apple as opposed to smashing into the apple, if you want an analogy.

Just know that learning to put spin will take a lot of time. Just keep trying! Remember to follow through because some things don't work if you slow down your stroke. I'm looking forward to the video.

To the community in general (I'm pretty sure I have the right audience this time), when you see a low no spin ball, unless you are very familiar with this shot, don't try to punish the opponent with a ridiculously fast attack. Sure, you might look cool, like One-Punch Man, but you're more likely to miss.
Just because a ball has little spin doesn't mean the shot isn't difficult.
Instead, a slower, well-placed loop will be much more effective.
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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And at the risk of redundancy, for Archie, since the actual issue is learning to make brush contact, then this exercise:


With 20-30 balls in a bucket you will get a decent number of reps so that, when you accidentally brush the ball there is more of a chance to repeat it. The number of reps is why this method would be more useful than using one ball and bouncing it on the floor.

The bed idea sounds fine as well.

In the end whatever gets Archie feeling how to brush is good. And as I already said, when Archie can brush while self hitting, then he will start to learn how to do it while facing a real opponent. But that could take some time after he is able to do it with the self hit method.

If Archie had access to a coach or players at a decent level I would give different info. But since this is what Archie has access to, self hitting is probably his best option. But he needs more reps than one ball at a time and then going to pick the ball up before the next rep.


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