Looping slow no spin balls

[Archosaurus]

Quick question:

What exactly is happening if it feels like I'm brushing, but I still need to increase velocity if I want more spin?

Am I driving into the ball very gently while I brush, which results in this need to increase velocity every time I increase spin? If I had a more pure brushing contact, would I be getting just more spin with more bat head speed, or are there some other dynamics to it, like the ball bouncing off the sponge?

 

[ttmonster]

Man, you need to consult somebody in person, honestly. With proper brushing contact the translational motion does not need to increase when you are increasing the torque. With proper whip and timing of waist / weight shift you should be able to get more and more spin without increasing the speed of the ball. Its all in the contact archie ...

Quick question:

What exactly is happening if it feels like I'm brushing, but I still need to increase velocity if I want more spin?

Am I driving into the ball very gently while I brush, which results in this need to increase velocity every time I increase spin? If I had a more pure brushing contact, would I be getting just more spin with more bat head speed, or are there some other dynamics to it, like the ball bouncing off the sponge?

 

[Archosaurus]

Man, you need to consult somebody in person, honestly. With proper brushing contact the translational motion does not need to increase when you are increasing the torque. With proper whip and timing of waist / weight shift you should be able to get more and more spin without increasing the speed of the ball. Its all in the contact archie ...

That's what I was trying to find out. I don't want to keep practicing the same, wrong thing.

So the only explanation is that I'm not applying force as purely towards generating spin as I'd like. Probably still "cutting into the apple" a bit.

 

[NextLevel]

As a wise man once told me, you need to post video to get proper feedback. Without the video he posted for us, Archosaurus would still be Ma Long in his head watching idiots like NextLevel play ping pong.

 

[Shuki]

Song, the point about amateur vs pro blocks is good. I've got a lot more accustomed to dealing with nearly chest height balls than perhaps a bit lower balls that I'd prefer. I should really get someone to block for me so I can deal with terrible placement inconsistency AND garbage balls. From what I understand, it's a pretty important skill.

Poor Archosaur. When you're playing ANY player, regardless of level, and you're practicing something with them, they WILL be able to adjust and block more and more consistently. If you've ever had reps with a high level player you'd think that you're pretty damn good because you can place it on them to "close to similar spot" every time. This is because regardless of how terrible your ball is, they can fix it and place it where you'd be able to do your stroke consistently again.

So if your training partner isn't getting the hang of blocking against you, you can't blame them for being bad. You are also to blame. Maybe if you could give them the same spin and pace to the same area they could block it. But when every ball is different and you're playing someone not great, you can't be upset with them for not blocking well.

As a wise man once told me, you need to post video to get proper feedback. Without the video he posted for us, Archosaurus would still be Ma Long in his head watching idiots like NextLevel play ping pong.

He still may be Ma Long in his head. I feel like if he got a real coach it may consist of him telling his coach that he can do all the strokes the coach wants him to work on fine and he'd rather work on getting more spin.

 

[Archosaurus]

Nowhere did I say that blocking inconsistency is not my fault as well. There's a clear "How good I'm doing vs how good they're doing" correlation.

What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin? Am I not attempting to learn a contact where I'm producing more spin and less velocity? Should I just shadow my strokes 2x as much as I do now and forget hitting, then?

 

[ttmonster]

This problem has only one solution Archo, you have to find a better hitting partner if you are not getting consistent blocks.

You could dial down on spin to focus on recovery and footwork when you find that you are not able to get a consistent feed...

Nowhere did I say that blocking inconsistency is not my fault as well. There's a clear "How good I'm doing vs how good they're doing" correlation.

What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin? Am I not attempting to learn a contact where I'm producing more spin and less velocity? Should I just shadow my strokes 2x as much as I do now and forget hitting, then?

 

[Shuki]

I would actually recommend having your blocking partner block whatever ball you can give them consistently. If you can't consistently give the same amount of spin then you shouldn't be trying to force more into it. Hit the table in the same spot. Once you can do this consistently and they're blocking it consistently then try adding a little more spin. and then a little more. placement and consistency come first. Spin and speed come second.

 

[Baal]

What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin?

My advice is for the time being don't worry about it. That will come with consistency as you progress. Right now you are thinking too much when you hit the ball. Relax. Concentrate on making transitions from forehand to backhand while still being able to hit controlled topspin shots. It is hard to say without more video, but from what little I watched I felt like you were trying to hit the ball a little too hard.

I got the impression from the thread that it is hard where you live to find coaching and decent practice partners, but that would help a lot. In any case, you need to get a bucket of balls so you can really spend time working at it rather than picking up the ball after each shot.

 

[Archosaurus]

I played a bit today, under an hour. Warmup then we did some games, with my usual partner. No battery left in the phone and I had to come home fast to attend to more important matters, so I didn't get the video.

Good news are that I've improved a bit. I've stopped caring about spin and speed and just focused on getting the right contact with the right movement. I was surprised to see that I actually span the ball pretty well a few times! A loose wrist among other things discussed here have helped a lot.

Sometimes, the ball is still slipping off the bat (I feel that's due to not having enough bat speed when looping backspin), or I drive into it by mistake and it comes out pretty dead. Sometimes, it's pretty good. It looks like all of my successful loops are not gonna land on the table, but they do, so I'm a bit more confident in them now.


The ball brushing method with the bed frame probably did most of the work. I'll keep doing that among other drills and this should develop on itself, I think.


Thanks a lot for bearing with me over all this theoretical nonsense, but I've felt it has also helped. Now it's just down to practice.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. It's just down to practice.

The thread meandered but probably what you need to continue working on is brush contact.

At a certain point it will be natural. The rest, like when to make deeper contact, when to make thinner, when to make the loop slow and spinny, when to make it fast, they will start falling into place as you practice and become more successful at making loop contact when you choose.

As I see it, that is what you probably need to work on until you can do it every time.

The more specific and detailed information: your strokes are already decent. The contact may be different but the fundamental strokes won't change much. The angle of the stroke will change. You will feel that out. But the fundamentals of the stroke will remain fairly similar.

At some point you should get someone to video from your phone for you. You should have a real person hold the phone rather than your method of propping the phone on something and going to hit. If the person makes the video from 4 or more angles, you will be able to learn much more about what you are doing when you are hitting with someone. If each video/short is approx 15 seconds, that should be enough. Angles that would help you:

1) facing you from FH side
2) facing you from BH side
3) behind you from FH side
4) behind you from BH side

You can do more angles. But those 4 angles will give you different information about things you are doing.

Since mechanics are what they are, for observing your strokes you don't really need more than 15 seconds from each angle.

Whether you share those or not is up to you. But if you do that with someone looking in the camera and choosing the angles that give you good, full views of your strokes, it will help you and you will see stuff you did not know was there. For you, the most important of those views may be #1.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Archosaurus]

I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing.


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

 

[NextLevel]

I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing.


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

Good for you, Ma Long.

 

[Shuki]

Here's the thing arch. A LOT of us started coming to the forum's thinking we knew or know more than we truly understand. We thought we could put a lot of spin on the ball and were getting things down pretty well. So I see where you're coming from thinking that you're finally getting a good understanding. And I love to see how dedicated you are to improving. But being humble is what worked for us in getting farther with our games.

Although we may have thought we were better than we were, being humble and just accepting advice from higher level players got us so much farther and kept us well liked, frustrating little to nobody with our responses. When you say something like your problem is that you can't get more spin and the other aspects of your game are fine it sounds like you think you're really damn good. I know some loopers with very little spin that play at an extremely high level and still know about a lot of their weaknesses.

Parviz for instance, probably the best player at my club at the moment is a two winged looper without much strength or spin on his loops. But he plays for counters and making the opponent uncomfortable with his perfect placement. What my coach says is she works with her students on the basics until they get close to or over the level of 2000, which hasn't taken any of her students more than 3 years to obtain. At that point the next step is messing up the opponents timing.

I've played with Parviz numerous times and have gotten his full game. He gives me his all because not only have we played a lot, but he also starts me off with 5 points in the game to give himself more of a challenge considering he's a 2300 player. The thing I've noticed the most threatening about him, was when I would get in a backhand to backhand rally and then all of a sudden he'd do his backhand to my forehand. I didn't notice anything different in his stroke and the speed was the same as usual. So I would load up for a powerful forehand loop and then I noticed somehow I was jammed. He did this a couple more times in the game and I was truly confused because I saw the speed the ball was coming at me and got used to it. I couldn't have been winding up too big.

I talked to my coach afterward who was watching the game. She said he added spin to the ball but kept the same arc and speed when he switched it to my forehand. So when it bounced on my side it would speed up and my extended stroke would be too big. He was truly messing with my timing.

 

[Shuki]

I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing.


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

The shadow strokes I've seen I wouldn't consider quite good but everyone's opinion on what's good is different. So now is your only problem in your game feel?

Good for you, Ma Long.

+2

 

[NextLevel]

The shadow strokes I've seen I wouldn't consider quite good but everyone's opinion on what's good is different. So now is your only problem in your game feel?


+2

When he grows up, he will learn that other than in politics, it is best to underpromise and overdeliver. Or one will perpetually look and sound like an idiot around smart people.

 

[ttmonster]

I can't find the right words to express my support @NextLevel. You have come up with another gem since the little statement you made about experience and talent

When he grows up, he will learn that other than in politics, it is best to underpromise and overdeliver. Or one will perpetually look and sound like an idiot around smart people.

 

[SilentRain]

Slow and steady wins the race Arch. Maybe you could try my formula which i use when learning something new in TT (serves or strokes)

1. Getting it on the table
2. Maximising your Consistency
3. Developing a form
4. Increasing the power and spin
5. Perfecting the form with same/higher level of consistency, speed, spin and power.
6. Practicing different Placement and variety
7. Pushing this new technique or serve to the limit. This usually means you revert to step 1 but with a new starting point

Rinse repeat. Its not about being able to perform your serve/ shot once but consistently. You will always be improving no matter what. I started playing since I was 7 but my main serve (pendulum serve) is always evolving and changing. Its the same serve, but higher in quality as I'm always practicing it and pushing it to the limit. My serve now is different in quality to my serve last year.

From your statements, it seems as if you are progressing too fast without really understanding the fundamentals of what it is you are learning. Slow down. Do the same thing over and over again. I often find new players without a coach skipping "Grades" if you will because they think they are doing it when they are not. This seems to be the same case as you. If it took me about 3 months with 1 to 1 coaching to properly develop brushing, it is inconceivable to think that you, without a coach and proper training partners to developing your fundamentals in such a short amount of time. Heck it took me 6months to coach new members how to brush and it is still not at a level where I am satisfied for them to move on to something more advance.

Edit: Instead of trying to learn how to slow brush loop a no spin ball so that it has a high arc but with heavy topspin, perhaps it is better to devote your time in mastering the topspin loop then the backspin loop. Those are more important and mastering them will probably help you learn how to brush loop a no spin ball in the long run.

 

[NextLevel]

I can't find the right words to express my support @NextLevel. You have come up with another gem since the little statement you made about experience and talent

I read too many books a long time ago to believe that I am not some cheap imitation of some far wiser person.

 

[ttmonster]

Ha ha , true , I am sure we are all pretenders at some level or another. But then its also a way to carry the wisdom forward and onward into the world

I read too many books a long time ago to believe that I am not some cheap imitation of some far wiser person.